370 replies to this topic

[Shrublands]

I suspect in Fleming's 50s world poker was an American game and not part of the gambling life of his English upper class.

or now for that matter.

[David Schofield]

I suspect in Fleming's 50s world poker was an American game and not part of the gambling life of his English upper class.

or now for that matter.

Very true - of which James Bond is supposed to be a member. He is not COMMON MAN.

Edited by David Schofield, 27 September 2005 - 12:07 PM.

[spynovelfan]

All the Americans reading this must think us awful snobs. We're not - ask anyone. Well, anyone who matters.*



*Copyright Simon Le Bon, of all people.

[David Schofield]

All the Americans reading this must think us awful snobs. We're not - ask anyone. Well, anyone who matters.*



*Copyright Simon Le Bon, of all people.

Thing is, Spy and EON/Sony, that's what Bond is all about - lashings of the superior life we don't live - SNOBBERY.

Edited by David Schofield, 27 September 2005 - 12:20 PM.

[spynovelfan]

This just in...Bond gets his secret instructions on an iPod.

But that has already happened, doublenoughtspy!

"Raymond Benson's James Bond. This is the A12QXI3F14 messaging service. You have one urgent message, from Universal Exports, London. If you wish to hear the message, please press Forward on your iPod wheel. If you wish to continue listening to A Lovely Way To Spend An Evening by The Ink Spots, please press Pause/Play."
From BONDKILLER

I suspect these days, Spy, you're right - "Pierce Brosnan in James Bond in THe Day After Yesterday Again" on posters attracts far more of the public to the conclusion, "Ah, must be the new James Bond movie then," than the phrase "Ian Fleming's Casino Royale."

Sure, although I don't think another DAY AFTER YESTERDAY AGAIN title would be that commercial right now. I think they underestimate the feeling of the general public regarding DAD at their peril. Yes, it was a fun film with some fun moments. But I think another DAD-style movie might kill off the series. I think they *need* to go grittier right now. Not copy Bourne - but have a more serious tone. CASINO ROYALE is the ideal story to do that with - if done properly, we could have another OHMSS. And it could be a success. The time is ripe for it. SPY GAME, THE RECRUIT, SPARTAN, the two Bourne films, BATMAN BEGINS and so on. The general public don't want to see 'another silly Bond film'. So surprise them.

Adapt the novel reasonably faithfully.

I know it's a shocking idea - but it might just work.

[Shrublands]

Does anyone else think that Hold'em Poker is SO wrong and out of place for Casino Royale, it must be some kind of joke?

Just think of the kind of people who play it.

Do I sound like a snob?

[David Schofield]

This just in...Bond gets his secret instructions on an iPod.

But that has already happened, doublenoughtspy!

"Raymond Benson's James Bond. This is the A12QXI3F14 messaging service. You have one urgent message, from Universal Exports, London. If you wish to hear the message, please press Forward on your iPod wheel. If you wish to continue listening to A Lovely Way To Spend An Evening by The Ink Spots, please press Pause/Play."
From BONDKILLER

I suspect these days, Spy, you're right - "Pierce Brosnan in James Bond in THe Day After Yesterday Again" on posters attracts far more of the public to the conclusion, "Ah, must be the new James Bond movie then," than the phrase "Ian Fleming's Casino Royale."

Sure, although I don't think another DAY AFTER YESTERDAY AGAIN title would be that commercial right now. I think they underestimate the feeling of the general public regarding DAD at their peril. Yes, it was a fun film with some fun moments. But I think another DAD-style movie might kill off the series. I think they *need* to go grittier right now. Not copy Bourne - but have a more serious tone. CASINO ROYALE is the ideal story to do that with - if done properly, we could have another OHMSS. And it could be a success. The time is ripe for it. SPY GAME, THE RECRUIT, SPARTAN, the two Bourne films, BATMAN BEGINS and so on. The general public don't want to see 'another silly Bond film'. So surprise them.

Adapt the novel reasonably faithfully.

I know it's a shocking idea - but it might just work.

Frankly, Spy, I think they could pretty much put "Pierce Brosnan as James Bond in" a movie of any title on marquee and it would get 'em into the multiplexs. Hence all the dithering about whether he's expendable or not even at this late stage.

Sure, all the opportunities are there for something different now - including a new Bond but EON/Sony could still go to the box office again with Brozza and clean up, just like DAD. Sadly.

[Forever007]

Very well said spynovelfan, very well said. EON has to make Bond more realistic to make him fit in with the times. Audiences want more substance and Casino Royale is just the right story to do the trick.

[tonymascia1]

No, Shrublands, you are correct.

The people saying Texas Hold 'Em would be classy in the right venue are just not getting it. Crazy Eights, Old Maid, Slapjack, and 52-Card-Pickup could all be made to look "glamourous" with the right setting --- but that not the point.

Some potential dialogue from CR:

Le Chiffre: "Got any threes, Mr. Bond?"

007: "Go fish!"

[spynovelfan]

Frankly, Spy, I think they could pretty much put "Pierce Brosnan as James Bond in" a movie of any title on marquee and it would get 'em into the multiplexs. Hence all the dithering about whether he's expendable or not even at this late stage.

Sure, all the opportunities are there for something different now - including a new Bond but EON/Sony could still go to the box office again with Brozza and clean up, just like DAD. Sadly.

Yes, agree with all of that. But what about Bond 22? If they get PB back for another DAD-style film, of course they will clean up - but there will be a substantial drop-off, I think. I could well be wrong, but I think that a lot of non-hardcore Bond fans were disappointed in DAD and felt that they had finally outgrown the series. They need to get those people back. Bond isn't going to die in one film. But it's now been well over three years since DAD - if they come back with more of the same, there will be even more harping about it, even more feeling that 'the films aren't what they used to be', and so on. Yes, there are always 'Bond is dead' articles - but it does have to die one day (ooh, there's a title). I think there is a danger Bond 22 won't be made. That is exacerbated by a long wait for another film - if they then make it DAD2 with Brosnan, who then retires, and we then have another three-year-wait, I think they could find the world's moved on and left them behind. They need to catch up, and get someone like Chris Nolan on board to really rethink it. Doesn't have to be all dark gritty stuff, either. Just not the usual *saying* it's going to be dark and gritty, and then delivering something else. The Bond series really needs some coherent vision right now.

Or perhaps I'd just finally like to see a reasonably faithful (albeit updated) adaptation of CASINO ROYALE.

[David Schofield]

Frankly, Spy, I think they could pretty much put "Pierce Brosnan as James Bond in" a movie of any title on marquee and it would get 'em into the multiplexs. Hence all the dithering about whether he's expendable or not even at this late stage.

Sure, all the opportunities are there for something different now - including a new Bond but EON/Sony could still go to the box office again with Brozza and clean up, just like DAD. Sadly.

Yes, agree with all of that. But what about Bond 22? If they get PB back for another DAD-style film, of course they will clean up - but there will be a substantial drop-off, I think. I could well be wrong, but I think that a lot of non-hardcore Bond fans were disappointed in DAD and felt that they had finally outgrown the series. They need to get those people back. Bond isn't going to die in one film. But it's now been well over three years since DAD - if they come back with more of the same, there will be even more harping about it, even more feeling that 'the films aren't what they used to be', and so on. Yes, there are always 'Bond is dead' articles - but it does have to die one day (ooh, there's a title). I think there is a danger Bond 22 won't be made. That is exacerbated by a long wait for another film - if they then make it DAD2 with Brosnan, who then retires, and we then have another three-year-wait, I think they could find the world's moved on and left them behind. They need to catch up, and get someone like Chris Nolan on board to really rethink it. Doesn't have to be all dark gritty stuff, either. Just not the usual *saying* it's going to be dark and gritty, and then delivering something else. The Bond series really needs some coherent vision right now.

Or perhaps I'd just finally like to see a reasonably faithful (albeit updated) adaptation of CASINO ROYALE.

This is the crux, isn't it. Brozza + Bond is still a formula for financial success. There are varying degrees but on paper the maths looks good to Sony. Put off the replace Brozza/new direction stuff until another day and balance the books for now. And I think Sony know that however much of a drop at the box office there was, they'd still get another chance with #22.

EON on the other hand are probably more aware of the need for change, hence the anti-Brozza stuff, all the delay. And yet they employ Campbell, change baccarrat to poker, keep P & W on board, Dench, don't seem to be able to chose a direction and stick with it. Suddenly, Brozza looks a good option again. Ditto they know they'll be able to give it another go with #22.

[Mister Asterix]

[quote name='Slaezenger' date='27 September 2005 - 00:37']...That said, there is a reason why Fleming's Bond didn't play poker in the casinos and clubs of the novels, and its explained by none other than -- Ian Fleming:

From this link:
http://www.ianflemin...m?page=occasion


OCCASIONAL PIECES
...It didn't matter that the game was poker. These were wonderful, thrilling stories about cards...

...Myself, as fine writers phrase it, I am not a good poker player. I drink and smoke and enjoy the game too much. You shouldn't do any of these things if you want to win at poker. Poker is a cold-hearted, deadly game... ...The last time I played poker, I lost more than I could afford in rich brassy company in a house at Sunningdale in what is now know as 'The Canasta Belt'...

copyright

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

[quote name='Mister Asterix' date='27 September 2005 - 13:43'][quote name='Slaezenger' date='27 September 2005 - 00:37']...That said, there is a reason why Fleming's Bond didn't play poker in the casinos and clubs of the novels, and its explained by none other than -- Ian Fleming:

From this link:
http://www.ianflemin...m?page=occasion


OCCASIONAL PIECES
...It didn't matter that the game was poker. These were wonderful, thrilling stories about cards...

...Myself, as fine writers phrase it, I am not a good poker player. I drink and smoke and enjoy the game too much. You shouldn't do any of these things if you want to win at poker. Poker is a cold-hearted, deadly game... ...The last time I played poker, I lost more than I could afford in rich brassy company in a house at Sunningdale in what is now know as 'The Canasta Belt'...

copyright

[spynovelfan]

That's damnably interesting. My objection to the use of poker (and especially a kind called Texas Hold 'Em) has nothing to do with the rotational properties of Mr Fleming's coffin, which by now must be cigar-shaped, the edges of it having been rounded off by the soil from constant friction, or like a roasted chicken on a spit in one of those stalls you see in southern Spain, hot and warm and dripping. My objection has to do with the fact that baccarat is the game in the novel, it's used very well there, would translate well to screen, and there is no reason it need be changed.

Fleming was in thrall to American culture - in the above-quoted essay he again cites Chandler. But I've really had it up to here with all the Americana in the series. We have had our fill. Additionally, the world as a whole and the film world in particular is already American enough - why compete with that? Bond won't win - it is not its appeal. Recognise its appeal. CASINO ROYALE takes place in France. There's a simplicity to that. Why not keep it? France, like it or not, is still elegance personified. Or nationified, or whatever the word is.

[Turn]

I still just hope they choose a different name than Texas Hold Em.

I do also. That may be what sort of shocked me when I first read the story more so than just Bond will play poker. It seems every weekend local newspapers run ads for, not poker, but Texas Hold 'Em tournaments at seedy halls and such. It just gives it an association that is so far from Bond.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

That's damnably interesting. My objection to the use of poker (and especially a kind called Texas Hold 'Em) has nothing to do with the rotational properties of Mr Fleming's coffin, which by now must be cigar-shaped, the edges of it having been rounded off by the soil from constant friction,

You need to go on tour or something...

Recognise its appeal. CASINO ROYALE takes place in France. There's a simplicity to that. Why not keep it? France, like it or not, is still elegance personified. Or nationified, or whatever the word is.

I think a good deal of us feel this way, unfortunately its been so long since there was any possible chance that Casino ROYALE would actually be set in France, it just kind of faded away. I really don't care that Bond has played baccarat in France before because it would still make for a thrilling and really visually appealing scene.

I think we can still try and hope for that...but it probably won't be the same...I just want the movie to not be another waste this time around...if it so happens that the concession for that is Bond playing poker in the Bahamas, I will live with it.

[Michigansoftball#1]

Next they will have Bond playing Go Fish!

The thing about poker is it has an image problem. It's seen by the majority of people as a game played by beer drinking, nascar supporting rednecks. If Bond fans really want to see their hero to be seen as a redneck then have him play poker.

Me, thats not the image I want for Bond so I guess the franchise is dead to me

[spynovelfan]

...Is a slight over-reaction.

Look, I don't like it either, but could we have some kind of heading that says 'All the Uno/Snap/Go Fish jokes have been done'?

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

...Is a slight over-reaction.

Look, I don't like it either, but could we have some kind of heading that says 'All the Uno/Snap/Go Fish jokes have been done'?

I'd really like that....and I'm getting tired of people saying a poker game will kill the franchise......Roger snowboarded down a hill to the beach boys...come the hell on.

He's right about the image thing though.

[doublenoughtspy]

As long as turn about is fair play and we have the same headline that says all of the complaints saying "Get over it you purists...it's not a big deal." have been done.

As Zencat said, we have had a lot of people come out of the woodwork to complain about this - either they were lurkers or word has spread like wildfire in the Bond community.

I agree it's not the end of the world. I agree that poker in a high class casino setting, if filmed with drama and panache, won't ruin the franchise.

But no matter how you slice it, poker is an everyman game, whereas Baccarat is not.

As Jim said, Bond is supposed to be aspiraitional - we want to live in his world and do the things he does, because so many of them we can't.

Poker does not fall in that category.

You can put in a tall glass and call it Pilsner, but it's stil beer.

You can put in a goblet and call it Fancy Feast, but it's still cat food.

[Bon-san]

You can put in a tall glass and call it Pilsner, but it's stil beer.

You can put in a goblet and call it Fancy Feast, but it's still cat food.

Isn't that what Fleming was doing throughout his books, though? Taking the relatively ordinary and glamming it up with fancy names and romanticized trappings.

Forgive me, but this is a tempest in a teapot.

[SecretAgentFan]

Alright, I get it. Now please, let

Edited by SecretAgentFan, 27 September 2005 - 02:55 PM.

[Shrublands]

Well I now know what Bond wants for Christmas.

Merry Christmas Mr Bond

[spynovelfan]

[quote name='Bon-san' date='27 September 2005 - 14:54']Isn't that what Fleming was doing throughout his books, though?

[zencat]

I'm amazed at the passions this news has brought out. I wondered if people would even be that interested. And it looks like no one is heeding our spoiler warning.

I also find it telling that not one of the many internet "insiders" told us about this.

[Genrewriter]

...Is a slight over-reaction.

Look, I don't like it either, but could we have some kind of heading that says 'All the Uno/Snap/Go Fish jokes have been done'?

I'd really like that....and I'm getting tired of people saying a poker game will kill the franchise......Roger snowboarded down a hill to the beach boys...come the hell on.

He also wrapped up one film by chasing a midget around a boat, this is not a big deal. As for the image thjing, am I the only one who thinks that having Bond play poker could raise the image of the game? Jeez, influence does go two ways.

I love this idea. It's no more different than Bond's gambling scene turn into a massive sword fight. I'm excited to see it work.

[The Dove]

[quote name='spynovelfan' date='27 September 2005 - 08:15'][quote name='Bon-san' date='27 September 2005 - 14:54']Isn't that what Fleming was doing throughout his books, though?

[morganhavoc]

"Baccarat is too complicated. Simple as that".

and I bet you complained that you didn't know what Revoked means and made EON change the title to Licence to Kill.
Read the book, the game is pretty simple. or better yet play it.

I hope this isn't true, feels like Diamonds are Forever again. Bond, Jimmy Bond playing poker and riding the bull. Dinking red stripe ( can, not bottle) and rubbing ( because smoking isn't cool any more). Ye haw!

[Spoon]

Bond is supposed to be aspiraitional - we want to live in his world and do the things he does, because so many of them we can't.

Right, and don't you aspire to be thought of as a person who can outplay and outthink other people, as opposed to being luckier than them? One's an accomplishment, the other kinda isn't.

Can you get dealt a bunch of good cards in a row? I could, as could anyone else who was in the right place at the right time.

Can you deceive people... get into their heads... win even when the odds are against you, because you played everyone else in the room like a violin? I could not.

Edited by Spoon, 27 September 2005 - 04:13 PM.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

"Baccarat is too complicated. Simple as that".

HAH! Who said that?? Apparently they don't understand baccarat or poker, for that matter...