1894 replies to this topic

[SecretAgentFan]

You see, I completely disagree. For me film scores are an art form, not just something that I listen to while watching the film. I am one of those score enthusiasts (or nerds, if you like) who actually listen to film music again and again, appreciating them for their complexity (if they have it) and their power to not only strengthen the effect of the moving image but to become an important factor for making a film work in the first place.

I also watch films not only once but many times to discover their complexity. I think your comparison with food does not work.

And once again, I have never said that nobody is allowed to form an opinion on a score from one listen. I only doubt that one can already be well-rounded.

I also never said that I wanted to dictate the "level of competence" of the criticism on this board. I only wish that sometimes it would be more layered than "sucks" or "awesome". Because then one can have a real discussion.

I also think that if an artist like Thomas Newman has written a score he deserves a bit more patience. To dismiss it without giving it a proper thought, in my mind, equals a bully spitting into the face of a talented class mate in order to get a laugh.

But, as you say, to each their own.

[The Shark]

I think your comparison with food does not work.

More than that. It's ing insulting.

[univex]

I think your comparison with food does not work.

More than that. It's ing insulting.

I second that ^

[Harmsway]

I never thought I'd say this, but this score makes me wish Arnold had stuck around.

[The Shark]

Couldn't disagree more.

Listening this makes me miss Newman already, since it's likely Ah-nold will be back.

[Harmsway]

Couldn't disagree more.

Well, I'm glad one of us is pleased. I'd love to hear you elaborate, because I don't think I've seen any comments from you--at length, at any rate--on the SKYFALL score, at least since you commented on the samples and stated you were disappointed.

I find bits and pieces of the SKYFALL score to be pretty compelling, but they're few and far in between. The vast majority of the SKYFALL score is pretty dreary, interminable stuff.

[univex]

Well, Newman is clearly seeing something we´re not. I do believe film soudtracks have to work within their context as well as out of it, but in this case, who+s to say this particular score isn´t the best complementary piece of music to Mendes frames?

That being said. I love the mistery behind many of these cues. I love it when it´s downright Bondian - better than Arnold here (Breadcrums).

Do I find it the best Bond score ever? No, definitely not. But, you see, I don´t wan´t the Arnold sound again, not for this era, so I´m pleased to hear something different and, I must say, interesting.

I´ll wait to see if it works well on film.

[The Shark]

Couldn't disagree more.

Well, I'm glad one of us is pleased. I'd love to hear you elaborate, because I don't think I've seen any comments from you--at length, at any rate--on the SKYFALL score, at least since you commented on the samples and stated you were disappointed.

I'll find some time one of these days to do a full track by track review of the score. Sorta like what Chris Clemmensen does at filmtracks, except better. i.e. identifying themes, instruments, harmonic motifs (i.e. recurring chords), structure etc. And what I think of it. Will probably do it after I watch the film at the BFI Imax next Sunday, to see how it works in its proper context.

I find bits and pieces of the SKYFALL score to be pretty compelling, but they're few and far in between. The vast majority of the SKYFALL score is pretty dreary, interminable stuff.

Isn't the same for Arnold, though?

I find the whole score more compelling and memorable than you do. It's got a lot of surprises, like its takes on the Bond theme (the most original since 1995), the 60s lounge throwback "Old Dog, New Tricks", Phill Todd's jazzy flute solos that remind me of Bud Shank's work on Lalo Schifrin's classic crime scores (i.e. BULLITT, DIRTY HARRY etc.), the stately M theme, George Doering on hammered dulcimer, the drum work etc.

Despite its length, it's lighter, compact and more fun than any of Arnold's scores. Even during the Brosnan era, they got bogged down in melodrama (i.e. the Colonel/General Moon father/son bollocks in DAD) that this score avoids. This is less manipulative and more Bond. Cool, precise, soulful, restrained but packing a huge punch when needed.

[univex]

Despite its length, it's lighter, compact and more fun than any of Arnold's scores. Even during the Brosnan era, they got bogged down in melodrama (i.e. the Colonel/General Moon father/son bollocks in DAD) that this score avoids. This is less manipulative and more Bond.

Yes, this is my impression as well. Agreed on the other sound/film references as well. I´ll be waiting to read the expansion on your views Shark.

Oh, about the manipulation bit: when a score doesn´t need to be manipulative and the composer is someone who is used to working with the director, I find that the film itself has its own voice. Bodes well for the script, you see? When the message is not clear enough and you have to use music to convey an idea, you´re in trouble. So all of this is a good sign in my book.

[Harmsway]

Isn't the same for Arnold, though?

Yeah, but I find the proportion of stuff I like to be higher in the best of Arnold's work (ala QUANTUM OF SOLACE) than I do with Newman's take on SKYFALL. In fact, I'll take "Night at the Opera" over any cue from SKYFALL.

It's got a lot of surprises, like its takes on the Bond theme (the most original since 1995)

They're nice, but often too brief to make a significant impression. There are many lovely moments in Newman's score, but they all show up and then vanish too quickly, or are too subtle for their own good.

Maybe I'm just too fond of blatant melodic statements to dig what Newman is up to here.

the 60s lounge throwback "Old Dog, New Tricks"

Haven't heard it. Alas.

Despite its length, it's lighter, compact and more fun than any of Arnold's scores.

Lighter, more compact? Sure. More fun? There I'm going to have to disagree with you. There isn't a lot of fun to be had here.

[The Shark]

In fact, I'll take "Night at the Opera" over any cue from SKYFALL.

"Night at the Opera" is ridiculously overrated. A poor man's "Space March" running on for too many bars without development. It has solid thematic material, but it's let down by the orchestration, repetition and electronics.

Give me "Komdodo Dragon", "Enquiry", "Severine", "Modigliani", "She's Mine", "New Digs" or "Old Dog, New Tricks" over that, any day. They may not have as memorable a tune as the Quantum Theme, but I find Newman's atmosphere more evocative, and they're not standing in the shadow of another composer.

They're nice, but often too brief to make a significant impression.

I prefer brief statements to getting hit round the head with it for an entire action scene (i.e. TOMORROW NEVER DIES). They remind me of how Barry sparingly used the Bond theme in YOLT and OHMSS.

Maybe I'm just too fond of blatant melodic statements to dig what Newman is up to here.

I prefer atmosphere, harmony and orchestration over big sweeping melodies. That's partly why Bernard Herrmann's my favourite film composer.

Haven't heard it. Alas.

Check yo PMs at BAB.

[SecretAgentFan]

I'll find some time one of these days to do a full track by track review of the score. Sorta like what Chris Clemmensen does at filmtracks, except better. i.e. identifying themes, instruments, harmonic motifs (i.e. recurring chords), structure etc. And what I think of it. Will probably do it after I watch the film at the BFI Imax next Sunday, to see how it works in its proper context.

Brilliant! Looking forward to it!

[MattofSteel]

I'll find some time one of these days to do a full track by track review of the score. Sorta like what Chris Clemmensen does at filmtracks, except better. i.e. identifying themes, instruments, harmonic motifs (i.e. recurring chords), structure etc. And what I think of it. Will probably do it after I watch the film at the BFI Imax next Sunday, to see how it works in its proper context.

Brilliant! Looking forward to it!

Also anticipating, though I won't read it until after I've seen the picture.

I can't wait until we all universally love Skyfall, so it won't be quite as divisive in here.

[Harmsway]

I prefer atmosphere, harmony and orchestration over big sweeping melodies. That's partly why Bernard Herrmann's my favourite film composer.

Me too, though not necessarily when it comes to Bond. (And, to be fair, Herrmann's scores are full of boldly-stated thematic material and melodic lines.)

What frustrates me most about the SKYFALL score is that, well, it doesn't move me or excite me. There's a lot of intensity, but not of feeling. Serra's score for GOLDENEYE was dark and atmospheric, but it's also highly emotional (there's no equivalent of "We Share the Same Passions" or "The Severnaya Suite" in SKYFALL, except the too-meager "Severine," and we don't get an action cue as rousing as "Run, Shoot, Jump"). There are brief moments where SKYFALL's score is really striking--the Goldenthal-esque beginning to "Jellyfish," for instance--but they fly by too quickly.

That's not to say I can't dig in the more minimalist, electronic approach (I love "Shanghai Drive" more than other cue in the score), but I find a lot of Newman's handling of that stuff to be monotonous.

[littlenellie]

In fact, I'll take "Night at the Opera" over any cue from SKYFALL.

"Night at the Opera" is ridiculously overrated. A poor man's "Space March" running on for too many bars without development. It has solid thematic material, but it's let down by the orchestration, repetition and electronics.

Space march is a four chord sequence with two four bar phrases that play on top .it repeats over and over ...,it doesn't develop as much as it just adds to itself.
Repetition not a problem for you here? And how about the re write/same but different piece in DAF?


Give me "Komdodo Dragon", "Enquiry", "Severine", "Modigliani", "She's Mine", "New Digs" or "Old Dog, New Tricks" over that, any day. They may not have as memorable a tune as the Quantum Theme, but I find Newman's atmosphere more evocative, and they're not standing in the shadow of another composer.

He may not be standing in the shadow of Barry,more like the shadow of Powell,Newton Howard and sometimes Arnold

They're nice, but often too brief to make a significant impression.

I prefer brief statements to getting hit round the head with it for an entire action scene (i.e. TOMORROW NEVER DIES). They remind me of how Barry sparingly used the Bond theme in YOLT and OHMSS.

Maybe I'm just too fond of blatant melodic statements to dig what Newman is up to here.

I prefer atmosphere, harmony and orchestration over big sweeping melodies. That's partly why Bernard Herrmann's my favourite film composer.

Haven't heard it. Alas.

Check yo PMs at BAB.

[QuantumOfRoyale]

I think that, for a 50th anniversary movie, Arnold's composing would've been more appropriate, as his style invoked so much of the sound that made the series great.

But, as it remains, I think Newman's risen to the challenge and the stuff I've heard so far has been quite good.

But I really can't comment until the score is released stateside.

[The Shark]

I prefer atmosphere, harmony and orchestration over big sweeping melodies. That's partly why Bernard Herrmann's my favourite film composer.

Me too, though not necessarily when it comes to Bond.

Many of Barry's best Bond moments were atmospheric, fairly low-key incidental cues. THUNDERBALL, OHMSS and DAF are chock full of 'em.

Bond music for me isn't just about instrumentals of the title song, although that can be nice. If you want that, buy one of the bloody City of Prague complications. It's a mood, a state of mind. In SKYFALL Newman captures that.

(And, to be fair, Herrmann's scores are full of boldly-stated thematic material and melodic lines.)

I wouldn't agree with that. There's thematic material yes, but not the kind of hummable melodies one could arrange into a song. A rare exception is the theme from Taxi Driver, though that was radically transformed by Christopher Palmer from the 4 bar melody line of the soprano solo "As the Wind Bloweth" from Herrmann's musical THE KING OF SCHNORRERS.

[The Shark]

Space march is a four chord sequence with two four bar phrases that play on top .it repeats over and over ...,it doesn't develop as much as it just adds to itself.

Building layers or passing the motif to different sections of the orchestra is a form of development. Not melodic development, but timbral. "Night at the Operae" doesn't do that. It's just a copy and paste job.

Repetition not a problem for you here? And how about the re write/same but different piece in DAF?

Again, the orchestration is always varied.

He may not be standing in the shadow of Barry,more like the shadow of Powell,Newton Howard and sometimes Arnold

Can't hear that I'm afraid, and I'm familiar with those composers.

[Harmsway]

It's a mood, a state of mind. In SKYFALL Newman captures that.

See, I think that's exactly where Serra's GOLDENEYE succeeds and Newman's SKYFALL fails.

I wouldn't agree with that. There's thematic material yes, but not the kind of hummable melodies one could arrange into a song.

I hum the scores to VERTIGO and OBSESSION all the time.

[The Shark]

It's a mood, a state of mind. In SKYFALL Newman captures that.

See, I think that's exactly where Serra's GOLDENEYE succeeds and Newman's SKYFALL fails.

I like them both a lot, though if I had to choose, I'd still take GOLDENEYE over SKYFALL.

I wouldn't agree with that. There's thematic material yes, but not the kind of hummable melodies one could arrange into a song.

I hum the scores to VERTIGO and OBSESSION all the time.

Fair enough.

[junkanoo]

I prefer atmosphere, harmony and orchestration over big sweeping melodies. That's partly why Bernard Herrmann's my favourite film composer.

Me too, though not necessarily when it comes to Bond. (And, to be fair, Herrmann's scores are full of boldly-stated thematic material and melodic lines.)

Absolutely. A lot of bold melodic music in Vertigo and North By Northwest for example. And harmonies? If anything, I'd suggest that Herrmann is better known for rather bold discord (and God bless him for it).

Edited by junkanoo, 20 October 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[The Shark]

And harmonies? If anything, I'd suggest that Herrmann is better known for rather bold discord.

Dissonance and consonance are both harmony. That includes Herrmann's famous polychords.

[junkanoo]

And harmonies? If anything, I'd suggest that Herrmann is better known for rather bold discord.

Dissonance and consonance are both harmony. That includes Herrmann's famous polychords.

When used together .... sure ... consonant and dissonant in balance creates harmony. When I suggesting is that rather bold discord (thus the lack of balance) is what I think of when I think of some of Herrmann's work. That imbalance works well for suspense or psychological themes such as in Vertigo.

[Royal Dalton]

The bit between 3.07 and 3.15 of 'Grand Bazaar, Istanbul' has quite a Hermannesque vibe to it.

[The Shark]

And harmonies? If anything, I'd suggest that Herrmann is better known for rather bold discord.

Dissonance and consonance are both harmony. That includes Herrmann's famous polychords.

When used together .... sure ... consonant and dissonant in balance creates harmony.

We using two or three definitions of harmony here.

You're talking about

"The simultaneous combination of tones, especially when blended into chords pleasing to the ear; chordal structure, as distinguished from melody and rhythm."

or

"A consistent, orderly, or pleasing arrangement of parts; congruity."

Whereas I mean

"Any simultaneous combination of tones."

http://dictionary.re.../browse/harmony

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Many of you speak like if you've heard the full score. Has it been leaked??

[Vauxhall]

Many of you speak like if you've heard the full score. Has it been leaked??

It's been released legally on iTunes in some countries.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Many of you speak like if you've heard the full score. Has it been leaked??

It's been released legally on iTunes in some countries.

And.... er... can somebody... er... PM me ***wink*** ****wink****

[The Shark]

Your PM box is full.

[DominicGreene]

I second that....