578 replies to this topic

[SecretAgentFan]

But kind of malicious and unjust. Why can´t we all find some quantum of solace with this tune?

[Royal Dalton]

It is a lot easier to criticize than actually create something "better".

Beautifully said. Perfect words for A LOT of griping and anorak moaning round here.

No, it's a nonsense argument.

And calling people "fanboys" and "anoraks" because they happen to have a different opinion to your own isn't very nice, either.

I stand by my thoughts (as echoed by NVT) that a great many followers of the series still do not get the films - how they work, why they work and when they work. Of course we all have favourites and they should be separate from everyone else. I don't think GOLDFINGER is the Best Bond Ever. I have a favourite, but it is not the best Bond film by a long stretch (though I could defend why it might be). A lot of fans are unable to separate the film and the canon from the film in the cultural context it arrived in or the cultural zeitgeist it is reflecting.

And all of this moaning tends to come from people who could not do any better. That doesn't mean they cannot moan at all. Of course they can. But to do so from a perspective that is damning someone else's creative efforts without an understanding of the context of their work is foolish and gets the fan world of James Bond 007 nowhere.

Well, maybe they could write a better song, and maybe they couldn't. That's something we'll never know. But you don't need to make derogatory remarks about people who post on this forum in order to get your point across.

[Loomis]

So let me get this right... we're damning a song from half a bootleg version and we're damning the film because of a trailer...?

I think some people are fans of the wrong thing.

Hmmm.... but you don't mind people praising the song from half a bootleg version and the film because of a trailer. In other words, we're allowed to be positive (nay, uncritical, for Eon Always Knows Best™) from the little we've heard/seen, but negative reactions are unacceptable?

And why do you always seem to use "fans" as a term of abuse? We are all fans, are we not?

[Simon]

I stand by my thoughts (as echoed by NVT) that a great many followers of the series still do not get the films - how they work, why they work and when they work. Of course we all have favourites and they should be separate from everyone else. I don't think GOLDFINGER is the Best Bond Ever. I have a favourite, but it is not the best Bond film by a long stretch (though I could defend why it might be). A lot of fans are unable to separate the film and the canon from the film in the cultural context it arrived in or the cultural zeitgeist it is reflecting.

And all of this moaning tends to come from people who could not do any better. That doesn't mean they cannot moan at all. Of course they can. But to do so from a perspective that is damning someone else's creative efforts without an understanding of the context of their work is foolish and gets the fan world of James Bond 007 nowhere.

Getting back to the song....

DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, GOLDFINGER, A VIEW TO A KILL, FOR YOUR EYES ONLY, LIVE AND LET DIE, THUNDERBALL ... they were all songs that were as much about the cultural era they emerged in as they were Bond song standards. What happened since 1995 was that we had 007 title tracks that were trying harder to be 'Bond Songs' rather than solid pieces of contemporary music. When Madonna, Cornell, White & Keys come along and create solid Bond songs AND contemporary sounding tracks at the same time, a lot of people panic and let nostalgia damn the tracks.

Moses did not come down from that viewing theatre on the Mount and declare all Bond songs should contain brass, guitars and Shirley Bassey. The first Bond song ever heard on film was a Jamaican calypso ditty that couldn't be less 007 if it tried.

All thoroughly agreed with, especially the bit with the line under it.

[bond 16.05.72]

Some people are digging them selves in a little too much here and need to watch what they say because when they hear the finished article on a proper stereo not a bloody computer, I've a feeling some of them may need to eat humble pie.

Having said that some are so disgusted at this moment I doubt their pride will let them admit it's a decent song, I can't believe it's caused so much outrage.

It just goes to show and yes it my opinion that some people's view of music is decidely narrow minded and what they think should or should not be a Bond theme.

I don't like DAD but I have more time for it than the dreary Crowe, Garbage offerings, YNMN made you sit up those others sent me to sleep.

I've a feeling this will start with a bang in a flourish of sound and set the film up perfectly, I certainly didn't want string laden chill out piece.

[Zorin Industries]

It is a lot easier to criticize than actually create something "better".

Beautifully said. Perfect words for A LOT of griping and anorak moaning round here.

No, it's a nonsense argument.

And calling people "fanboys" and "anoraks" because they happen to have a different opinion to your own isn't very nice, either.

I stand by my thoughts (as echoed by NVT) that a great many followers of the series still do not get the films - how they work, why they work and when they work. Of course we all have favourites and they should be separate from everyone else. I don't think GOLDFINGER is the Best Bond Ever. I have a favourite, but it is not the best Bond film by a long stretch (though I could defend why it might be). A lot of fans are unable to separate the film and the canon from the film in the cultural context it arrived in or the cultural zeitgeist it is reflecting.

And all of this moaning tends to come from people who could not do any better. That doesn't mean they cannot moan at all. Of course they can. But to do so from a perspective that is damning someone else's creative efforts without an understanding of the context of their work is foolish and gets the fan world of James Bond 007 nowhere.

Well, maybe they could write a better song, and maybe they couldn't. That's something we'll never know. But you don't need to make derogatory remarks about people who post on this forum in order to get your point across.

Have I named any names? Or made any derogatory comments about people individually?

I am talking about those that slate SOLACE (when they really can't wait for it - THAT's the thing that confuses me most) and do so in narrow minded terms.

I do not use "fans" as an insult. I am a Bond fan. But I remember the days (just) when who was involved in a Bond film (the cast, the singers) was only revealed to the public when the final poster came out - not via constant internet rumouring that I think - and I'm including myself here - distances a fan from the films no end. It certainly distances us from experiencing the film as we used to. Maybe that is just evolution for you. But I for one think the Internet frames too much of our cinema experiences these days. I don't want to see QUANTUM OF SOLACE and think towards the end "what will I say on CBN or how will I defend it?" (but that's my problem - no-one else's).

I'm an old nostalgic (not that old, mind) who wants the discussion of Bond, but not the neurosis about trailer running times and whether a title tune has too many lyrics. I heard that new title song and thought yet more cobwebs are about to be blown away from the dusty recesses of 007 On Film. The sixties Bond films were cutting edge, panther-like exponents of modern moviemaking. Things slipped (as they naturally would after forty years of making the same product). But CASINO ROYALE heralded the next evolution of Bond. It also began (hopefully) an era of 007 films that shake up themselves as much as the fans.

So let me get this right... we're damning a song from half a bootleg version and we're damning the film because of a trailer...?

I think some people are fans of the wrong thing.

Hmmm.... but you don't mind people praising the song from half a bootleg version and the film because of a trailer. In other words, we're allowed to be positive (nay, uncritical, for Eon Always Knows Best™) from the little we've heard/seen, but negative reactions are unacceptable?

Loomis, I will not even go towards thinking "negative reactions are unacceptable". It's just that some of THESE negative reactions are bordering on the absurd. It is the shortsighted-ness that annoys me. People can disagree. Of course they can. But - without sounding arrogant (not a wont of Zorin Industries at all - despite the bad press!!?!) I rarely get persuaded by someone on CBN to change my mind when the parameters of context are often nostalgia based on what went before and not what could come now.

One example (in relation to Keys & White) has been the panic : "Oh how will David Arnold incorporate THAT into his score?!!"

It's quite easy. He's a music composer who can write music and he has the film infront of him. A VIEW TO A KILL on paper had the least orchestral-friendly of theme tunes, but WINE WITH STACEY is one of the most sublime pieces of 007 music ever.

[ElFenomeno]

this sample has style. very good stuff here. some people just can't appreciate what's good.

[JADSTERSDAD]

Some people are digging them selves in a little too much here and need to watch what they say because when they hear the finished article on a proper stereo not a bloody computer, I've a feeling some of them may need to eat humble pie.

Having said that some are so disgusted at this moment I doubt their pride will let them admit it's a decent song, I can't believe it's caused so much outrage.

It just goes to show and yes it my opinion that some people's view of music is decidely narrow minded and what they think should or should not be a Bond theme.

I don't like DAD but I have more time for it than the dreary Crowe, Garbage offerings, YNMN made you sit up those others sent me to sleep.

I've a feeling this will start with a bang in a flourish of sound and set the film up perfectly, I certainly didn't want string laden chill out piece.

Digging ourselves in, Mr.Bond....?

These heated discussions are a funny affair. I'm perfectly willing to accept that there'll just be polarized views on something like this (and those in-between). It's in the justification that people use, one way or the other, that baits a response. The above, for example, is full of holes and prejudices.

What we hear on this clip are the melody (?), vocals, lyrics, arrangement...in fact.the song! (or half of it). However poor quality, it is what it is. Like it or loathe it. My opinions tend to be acute at the outset and rarely change. But that's just me.

For this writer, at least, pride does not come into it at all.

Then....exactly what 'narrow-minded' view are we talking about? The opposite of yours?

Crowe is dreary. TWINE may not be the best, but again it is Bond, whereas DAD is emphatically not.

Finally, I don't think any of us want a chill-laden piece, or think it would be appropriate. Some of us want another YKMN or even better. What we get is this. Never mind... there's the score to look forward to.

[Fro]

I like it... very interested to hear the 2nd half of the song where it should really pick up.

[Publius]

Hmmm.... but you don't mind people praising the song from half a bootleg version and the film because of a trailer. In other words, we're allowed to be positive (nay, uncritical, for Eon Always Knows Best™) from the little we've heard/seen, but negative reactions are unacceptable?

I suppose one view is that if you like it in this format (bad quality, 2/3 missing), you'll probably like it in its proper, final version. If you don't like it in this format, there's still a chance you'll like it when you hear it properly and in its entirety.

Anyway, anyone else think the first line we hear might be "I know the ringer with the slick trigger finger for Her Majesty..."? Seems like it would fit in with the theme of deception, not knowing who to trust, etc.

[chriso]

The theme song is very dark and slow. I don't know.......I like some parts of the song but YKMN sounds better.

The lyrics doesn't make sense to me.

Edited by chriso, 17 September 2008 - 02:16 PM.

[Loomis]

Hmmm.... but you don't mind people praising the song from half a bootleg version and the film because of a trailer. In other words, we're allowed to be positive (nay, uncritical, for Eon Always Knows Best™) from the little we've heard/seen, but negative reactions are unacceptable?

I suppose one view is that if you like it in this format (bad quality, 2/3 missing), you'll probably like it in its proper, final version. If you don't like it in this format, there's still a chance you'll like it when you hear it properly and in its entirety.

I guess, although it seems to me that the chance is very small. I think we've got more than enough to go on in order to decide whether this song is our cup of tea or not.

[Johnboy007]

Anyway, anyone else think the first line we hear might be "I know the ringer with the slick trigger finger for Her Majesty..."? Seems like it would fit in with the theme of deception, not knowing who to trust, etc.

Sounds like it to me. The Guardian article also screwed up with "and then your fantasy", which doesn't make any sense at all.

As for the rest of it, I'd really like to hear the proper opening to the song.

[Mister E]

Does it have to be? It's a Raconteurs track with a campily serious twist. There's no reason for it to be something we've never heard before. Just like there's no actual problem with Casino Royale having elements of the Bourne movies in it..

I am not saying it has to be. I am just saying it isn't that unique. You should really read my previous responses to Jack Wade and DaveBond21 before you presume what I was trying to say.

[00Twelve]

Not bad. Not good enough to get me really excited, and not yet something that I would [voluntarily] listen to in the car, but not bad. I refuse to be less than optimistic.

Felt like YKMN was ballsier [to use a technical term]. This one feels a little "safer," but that's just me. I'm really hoping the orchestration/instrumentation changes somewhat. I'm sure it probably will, as CR's version of YKMN is different from the single. Seems like it will fit better with a very badass title sequence. Let's hope that's the case.

[SecretAgentFan]

Hmmm.... but you don't mind people praising the song from half a bootleg version and the film because of a trailer. In other words, we're allowed to be positive (nay, uncritical, for Eon Always Knows Best™) from the little we've heard/seen, but negative reactions are unacceptable?

I suppose one view is that if you like it in this format (bad quality, 2/3 missing), you'll probably like it in its proper, final version. If you don't like it in this format, there's still a chance you'll like it when you hear it properly and in its entirety.

I guess, although it seems to me that the chance is very small. I think we've got more than enough to go on in order to decide whether this song is our cup of tea or not.

´
I´m not so sure about that. We don´t know the whole bridge to the song and the possible crescendo. Right now, it´s only cut off intro/first verse/chorus/second verse/repeat chorus - with no bridge, instrumental part and the second part of the song. 1:47 out of a more than 4 minutes song.

Of course, one can argue that the feel of this first part is not to their liking. Totally fair enough.

But what the ones in favor of the song would like the others to consider, I guess, is just to wait for the whole damn thing. Or do you make up your mind on a movie if you have only seen half of it?

[Mister E]

Some people are digging them selves in a little too much here and need to watch what they say because when they hear the finished article on a proper stereo not a bloody computer, I've a feeling some of them may need to eat humble pie.

Since when is hearing a song on a computer not good enough ? Everyone keeps on making excuses for me or anyone else not to judge the song in the negative and I am tired of it. I heard it clear as day and I don't like it. I didn't say it was the all time worst but it's mediocre at best.

Having said that some are so disgusted at this moment I doubt their pride will let them admit it's a decent song, I can't believe it's caused so much outrage.

Contradiction alert. If I can't judge the song by listening to it on what you call a "bloody computer", neither can you.

It just goes to show and yes it my opinion that some people's view of music is decidely narrow minded and what they think should or should not be a Bond theme.

Is this according to YOU ?

[doubler83]

I must be the only one here who hasn't given into temptation and listened to this.

[Publius]

I guess, although it seems to me that the chance is very small. I think we've got more than enough to go on in order to decide whether this song is our cup of tea or not.

I don't doubt that, I was just offering up one possible explanation for why people get annoyed about negative reactions to an incomplete work but not positive reactions to it.

Felt like YKMN was ballsier [to use a technical term]. This one feels a little "safer," but that's just me.

I think the difference is more that AWTD is cooler, more laid-back, maybe even more confident. YKMN is definitely more brazen and bombastic, if you can forgive my use of yet more "B" words to describe it.

[HildebrandRarity]

The theme song is very dark and slow.

The lyrics doesn't make sense to me.

LOL! Too in funny!

I guess, although it seems to me that the chance is very small. I think we've got more than enough to go on in order to decide whether this song is our cup of tea or not.

What if the speed was changed, the vocals were changed and the lyrics were changed?

[Mister Asterix]

I must be the only one here who hasn't given into temptation and listened to this.

I haven’t either. During the titles of the movie is when I’ll listen to it.

[doubler83]

I must be the only one here who hasn't given into temptation and listened to this.

I haven’t either. During the titles of the movie is when I’ll listen to it.

We have the power to resist.

[Donovan Mayne-Nicholls]

Mediocre. While not as bad as DAD, it does suffer the syptoms of all "fake" Bond songs (those which didn't involve the score composer). It feels the need to legitimise itself by stealing from real Bond songs (I can see forthcoming editions of the James Bond greatest hits changing the credits to include Monty Norman as co-)composer). I find it laughable all the supporters hoping for the melody to be quoted by Arnold in his score because a) the score is almost ready and there's no melody there to quote. The lyrics are bloody awful. Explicit references a la Sheryl Crow.
The much maligned You Know My Name was better by any standards. The brass chords were integral to the song rather than merely cosmetic and the lyrics were literate by comparison.Even if this is a rough mix (it sounds so), it will only improve sonically but composition-wise, they'd have to start all over again.

A ) You do realise Arnold didn't have to listen to pirated Spanish radio to hear the song like the rest of us?

B ) Who says Arnold has to quote the main chorus? There are plenty of ideas in there that he could lift and adopt into a score just like he did with segments of YKMN.

The recording sounded well enough to assess the quality of the song. All of you claiming you can't judge the song as of yet are basically hoping for a miracle (that the song will be transformed into something that it isn't). Otherwise, you'd say something like it's great in spite of the recording.
Did I say he could only quote the main chorus? Learn to read. I said there's no melody there to quote. Again, excuses. YKMN was co-written by Arnold and both its melody and chords can be transposed with the James Bond Theme (Nassau, Bahamas) without obviously ripping off the later. Real Bond songs are extrapolations/inversions of the JBT chords, not pastiches.

[pgram]

Not willing to get involved in any arguments, just updating my previously expressed opinion.

After having listened to it more than 100 times, I still don't like it. The reason being that, to me, it sounds more like the soundtrack of a Bond spoof, or a Bond spin off, rather than a Bond itself. Hope you get what I mean, all those wannabe-Bond-films, which include cues of what is supposed to be Bondesque music in their soundtracks, in order to sound similar to the real thing, but not quite... A little cheap, inspiration-wise, if you know what I mean, in a way the stories of the Brosnan era were...

Still, I think it 'll do much better at charts, than YKMN.

[iexpectu2die]

I think its unfair to pass a definite judgement thus far. We haven't even heard the complete opening to the song, and it sounds like things start to change gear just before this extract fades out.

[Donovan Mayne-Nicholls]

So let me get this right... we're damning a song from half a bootleg version and we're damning the film because of a trailer...?

I think some people are fans of the wrong thing.

Hmmm.... but you don't mind people praising the song from half a bootleg version and the film because of a trailer. In other words, we're allowed to be positive (nay, uncritical, for Eon Always Knows Best™) from the little we've heard/seen, but negative reactions are unacceptable?

And why do you always seem to use "fans" as a term of abuse? We are all fans, are we not?

You've stepped on a much bigger issue there, Loomis. Just like internet is full of fat and ugly people passing photos of models as themselves in order to get laid, there's this new breed that pretends to be fans of anything (not just Bond). Their reactions are all about hype prior to any release (basically, the swallow press releases hook, line and sinker) so there's no space for dissent, criticism, etc. They resent anybody who seems to have any level of insight because it shows how little they know/how phony they are.
It is particularly ironic they've chosen Bond as their hobby. Bond was old before anyone in these forums was ever born and you cannot come into it expecting fans not to be devoted to the classics (both literary and cinematic). Saddest of all, if it were up to them, they'd get rid of all that makes Bond special, they tend to have a very hollywood executive mentality about where Bond films should go.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

Mediocre. While not as bad as DAD, it does suffer the syptoms of all "fake" Bond songs (those which didn't involve the score composer). It feels the need to legitimise itself by stealing from real Bond songs (I can see forthcoming editions of the James Bond greatest hits changing the credits to include Monty Norman as co-)composer). I find it laughable all the supporters hoping for the melody to be quoted by Arnold in his score because a) the score is almost ready and there's no melody there to quote. The lyrics are bloody awful. Explicit references a la Sheryl Crow.
The much maligned You Know My Name was better by any standards. The brass chords were integral to the song rather than merely cosmetic and the lyrics were literate by comparison.Even if this is a rough mix (it sounds so), it will only improve sonically but composition-wise, they'd have to start all over again.

A ) You do realise Arnold didn't have to listen to pirated Spanish radio to hear the song like the rest of us?

B ) Who says Arnold has to quote the main chorus? There are plenty of ideas in there that he could lift and adopt into a score just like he did with segments of YKMN.

The recording sounded well enough to assess the quality of the song. All of you claiming you can't judge the song as of yet are basically hoping for a miracle (that the song will be transformed into something that it isn't). Otherwise, you'd say something like it's great in spite of the recording.
Did I say he could only quote the main chorus? Learn to read. I said there's no melody there to quote. Again, excuses. YKMN was co-written by Arnold and both its melody and chords can be transposed with the James Bond Theme (Nassau, Bahamas) without obviously ripping off the later. Real Bond songs are extrapolations/inversions of the JBT chords, not pastiches.

Melody, chorus whatever. Split hairs to your hearts content. My point was there are more ideas to mine from AWD other than the main melody. Or the non-existent melody as you'd have everyone believe.

Edited by Mr Teddy Bear, 17 September 2008 - 03:32 PM.

[Publius]

it sounds like things start to change gear just before this extract fades out.

True. I remember when the first version of YKMN leaked, I liked the second half a lot more than the first.

[HildebrandRarity]

After having listened to it more than 100 times, I still don't like it.

One would have thought you would have made up your mind by the 3rd or 4th or 10th or even the 12th time.

If I didn't like a song the 3rd or 4th or 5th time, I would have moved on instead of wasting my time.

But 100 times? LOL

Each to his own, I suppose.

[marktmurphy]

Did I say he could only quote the main chorus? Learn to read. I said there's no melody there to quote.

Yes, but you also implied it was too late for him to add it to the soundtrack, which is nonsense.
And you're wrong about there being no melody to quote- it's not got a strong melody, but any phrase from a song can be quoted; the three descending quotes are recognisable, as is the piano motif.

YKMN was co-written by Arnold and both its melody and chords can be transposed with the James Bond Theme (Nassau, Bahamas) without obviously ripping off the later. Real Bond songs are extrapolations/inversions of the JBT chords, not pastiches.

Surrender and TWINE seemed like pastiches to me.