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Indiana Jones Thread


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#2041 DamnCoffee

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:56 PM

Atleast It would be different from the tiring Father/Son duo. That is so common in movies today. :(

#2042 Harmsway

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 01:02 AM

Atleast It would be different from the tiring Father/Son duo. That is so common in movies today. :(

Well, the father/daughter dynamic is hardly original, either. The whole progeny bit in flicks is tremendously overused.

Still, I think giving Indy offspring is among the least of KINGDOM's problems.

#2043 Mr Teddy Bear

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 01:31 AM

Yup, for what it's worth I liked Mutt more than I expected to. Some of the films best moments were exchanges between Indy and his son.

Edited by Mr Teddy Bear, 16 February 2009 - 01:31 AM.


#2044 Loomis

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 08:18 PM

I've been thinking about what I'd like a fifth Indiana Jones outing to be like.

I'd cetainly like INDY V to be a much less talky flick than CRYSTAL SKULL. I did actually see CRYSTAL SKULL again the other day and was really shocked by how talky it is - from Indy's interrogation by the Feds and his meeting with General Whatsisname (played by Alan Dale), right up to Indy's and Mutt's capture by the Russians, the film is basically nothing but talk, talk, talk, except for the fight in the malt shop and chase through the campus, but those are very pedestrian and unexciting action scenes indeed. For a great big stretch of its running time, INDY IV is a total snoozefest.

And at the same time, I'd like to see more and better action. I was stunned by how pedestrian the film was from an action POV. *Only* the opening (up to and including the Doomtown sequence) boasts any suspense and excitement, and even then the action is scarcely anything like as impressive as, say, the African Rundown in CASINO ROYALE, the Moscow car chase in SUPREMACY or the Tangier pursuit in ULTIMATUM.

I'd also welcome some shooting outside the United States, and definitely some scarier baddies. Relative to the villains in other Indy flicks and other franchise movies, the villains in CRYSTAL SKULL are basically pretty nice people (!), and it just doesn't work.

Well, that's for starters. My initial, off-the-top of my head idea would be this:

INDIANA JONES AND THE ROBBERS OF THE FORBIDDEN CITY

1997: The 98-year-old Indiana Jones and his 59-year-old son Mutt Williams are in Hong Kong for the Handover. Why? I'll tell you why: Mutt's daughter (and Indy's granddaughter) works for the Consulate General of the United States in the territory. After the ceremony, at which Indy shares a joke with Prince Charles, his granddaughter announces she's off to Beijing for a few days on business. Indy declares that he'd like to accompany her. "But, Grandpa, you shouldn't be travelling so much. You need to take it easy, you're only two years off a hundred." "In that case," Indy replies, "what exactly do I have to lose? Besides, I haven't been to Beijing since 1964 and I rather fancy taking a look at the new wing of the such-and-such museum to examine such-and-such." The granddaughter rolls her eyes, but acquiesces.

So Indy and granddaughter hit Beijing. They take a tour of the Forbidden City, but when the granddaughter wants to see Mao's mausoleum Indy refuses to go in. So she goes alone. When she comes out she mentions the popular rumour that it isn't really Mao's body in there. "It isn't," Indy replies, sounding curiously certain. But his granddaughter just laughs and says "Aw, Grandpa", and assumes he's about to go off again with a whole bunch of esoteric academic nonsense, and she drops the subject. They spot a McDonalds and walk off towards it, Indy grumbling that "I left America to escape things like McDonalds." His granddaughter chuckles, pats her stomach and says with a smile: "Well perhaps it'll be just another ruined relic by the time your great-grandchild is your age."

The rest of the film plays out in flashback:

It's 1964, seven years after the events of CRYSTAL SKULL. Indy and Marion are in Tokyo, where Indy's lecturing at a university on the invitation of his old buddy Yukio Mishima (yep, I'm making this up as I go along :( ). The Tokyo setting would allow Spielberg to pay tribute to one of his favourite films, IKIRU, and maybe do some shooting in the style and colour palette of Ozu (think of 1961's THE END OF SUMMER). On their way to check out the Olympics (cue footage from Kon Ichikawa's TOKYO OLYMPIAD), Indy and Marion pass a cinema at which GOLDFINGER (or maybe FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, depending on the release dates) is playing, and Indy mentions that the last time he was in Tokyo was with Ian Fleming in 1959. At the Olympics, Indy and Marion are unexpectedly buttonholed by "the Hong Kong team" and invited to a party at the Tokyo Tower, at which it turns out that the athletes are actually agents of the People's of Republic of China determined, for some reason, to kidnap Indy and Marion (Indy twigs where they're really from when he hears them speaking Mandarin and not Cantonese, although he tells Marion that he was suspicious right from the start because their English intonation sounded like that of people from the north of China as opposed to Hong Kong.... the old clever-clogs). Cue action scene within and without the tower, and perhaps, for good measure, a chase through a studio making a Godzilla picture. However, at the end of this sequence Indy is kidnapped, while Marion manages to escape.

Can't think of much more, but the upshot of it is this: the villain of the piece of Chairman Mao, who's had Indy kidnapped in order to force him to use his learning for some evil purpose or another. (Instead of Marion being the one constantly getting kidnapped, this time it's Indy who's taken, meaning that Marion - with or without Mutt in tow - takes centre stage for a while as she struggles to get her husband back.) The backdrop of the Chinese world does, of course, allow for the reintroduction of Lao Che and maybe also Short Round. And perhaps even Willie Scott could come aboard again - might be cool to have her as a reluctant ally for Marion in her quest for Indy, what with a certain undercurrent of rivalry that may exist between the pair.

Anyhoo, once Indy's been kidnapped, Marion goes to, say, Hong Kong, where she hooks up with some of the abovementioned TEMPLE OF DOOM people (and, heck, let's have a Bruce Lee cameo while we're about it). The rest of the film will take place in China after Marion gets herself smuggled into the country and reuintes with Indy, at which point, of course, they take the fight to the bad guys. I'm thinking a real actionfest along TEMPLE OF DOOM lines, with the same sort of "dark" undertone (China is, of course, hurtling towards the madness of the Cultural Revolution). I'd like a big action sequence involving a train, and perhaps a climactic fistfight between Indy and Mao (yes, really!) in a ruined temple somewhere. Let's say that Mao has somehow temporarily acquired magical kung fu powers. Ultimately, though, Indy takes him down with his usual mixture of good old-fashioned brawn and brains.

Disaster has been averted. Mao is dead. But it's a bittersweet ending, for someone in the Chinese government decides to pass himself off as Mao and continue his reign. Maybe Lao Che becomes this double. The Cultural Revolution looms, as does war in Vietnam.

#2045 Harmsway

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 08:38 PM

I'd cetainly like INDY V to be a much less talky flick than CRYSTAL SKULL. I did actually see CRYSTAL SKULL again the other day and was really shocked by how talky it is - from Indy's interrogation by the Feds and his meeting with General Whatsisname (played by Alan Dale), right up to Indy's and Mutt's capture by the Russians, the film is basically nothing but talk, talk, talk, except for the fight in the malt shop and chase through the campus, but those are very pedestrian and unexciting action scenes indeed. For a great big stretch of its running time, INDY IV is a total snoozefest.

And at the same time, I'd like to see more and better action. I was stunned by how pedestrian the film was from an action POV. *Only* the opening (up to and including the Doomtown sequence) boasts any suspense and excitement, and even then the action is scarcely anything like as impressive as, say, the African Rundown in CASINO ROYALE, the Moscow car chase in SUPREMACY or the Tangier pursuit in ULTIMATUM.

I'd also welcome some shooting outside the United States, and definitely some scarier baddies. Relative to the villains in other Indy flicks and other franchise movies, the villains in CRYSTAL SKULL are basically pretty nice people (!), and it just doesn't work.

I'm agreed with all of that.

INDIANA JONES AND THE ROBBERS OF THE FORBIDDEN CITY

Pretty interesting INDY V idea there, Loomis, and in some ways pretty surprising to me in some ways (I'm shocked that you've included much of the Indiana Jones family in the picture). Also surprising is how grounded your adventure is in historical context... ultimately, it reminds me a lot of a YOUNG INDIANA JONES episode (complete with the flashback structure with an ancient Indiana Jones, no less :( ).

The major hurdle, I imagine, would be that the last Mummy flick was THE MUMMY: TOMB OF THE DRAGON EMPEROR, a wholesale China-set Indiana Jones-esque adventure. But maybe if there's a big enough gap in years between now and the release of INDY V, it won't matter.

#2046 Loomis

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 09:22 PM

Pretty interesting INDY V idea there, Loomis, and in some ways pretty surprising to me in some ways (I'm shocked that you've included much of the Indiana Jones family in the picture).


Yeah, I guess it speaks volumes about how TEMPLE DOOM is (by far) my favourite Indy flick.

INDIANA JONES Also surprising is how grounded your adventure is in historical context... ultimately, it reminds me a lot of a YOUNG INDIANA JONES episode (complete with the flashback structure with an ancient Indiana Jones, no less :( ).


Y'know, I've never seen any of the YOUNG INDIANA JONES episodes (neither do I wish to, despite the presence of Daniel Craig in one episode and the fact that it had some quite interesting directors, or so I gather).

I've tried to make my INDY V a combination of the incredibly whacked-out (Indy has a fistfight with Chairman Mao! Lao Che surreptitiously takes over China!) and the, erm, grittily historical, partly because it, uh, seems like a good idea, *ahem*, and also because Spielberg usually (but not always - see 1941) responds well to a script that tackles history in some way (starting with EMPIRE OF THE SUN and most recently MUNICH).

The INDY V I have in mind is essentially just big, goofy fun on a giant, decades-spanning canvas, but would allow Spielberg to do a few interesting things on the side, e.g. tributes to the masters of Japanese cinema, and give us a flavour of the 1964 Tokyo Olympics and 1997 Hong Kong Handover, mixing in real documentary footage, and maybe a couple of sobering scenes about China in the 1960s. Which would, of course, probably make the film more than somewhat uneven, but at least it would give scope for some (if I say so myself) interesting touches and surprisingly effective dramatic scenes. Entertainment with a sort of bizarre, bittersweet edge.

And I love the idea of the first publicity still from the film being the old Indy, back to camera but still identifiable with the hat, standing in Tiananmen Square looking at a McDonalds (unfortunately, this is something one can actually do). It would just make people think What?!?!?!?!, and, hopefully, be intrigued. That was precisely the effect that that early photo of the bearded Brosnan in North Korea had on me in the runup to DIE ANOTHER DAY. It made me think, for the first time, that "BOND 20" might actually have a few interesting ideas. Now, you and I differ on the merits of DAD, but it was undeniably a very clever choice to release that particular pic.

The major hurdle, I imagine, would be that the last Mummy flick was THE MUMMY: TOMB OF THE DRAGON EMPEROR, a wholesale China-set Indiana Jones-esque adventure. But maybe if there's a big enough gap in years between now and the release of INDY V, it won't matter.


True. I'd thought of that MUMMY flick, and also of TOMB RAIDER 2, but the difference is that my China (he writes as though he's George bloody Lucas with $200 million to make this nonsense) wouldn't be yer sorta standardised Hollywood exotic China (past a certain point, anyway). I'm thinking of China as a poor, downtrodden and utterly miserable place under Mao going towards his most extreme. The Hong Kong scenes would bring in kung fu and all the rest of it, and Japan would basically look like the Japan of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, but China would be bleak and horrifying.

#2047 Harmsway

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 03:11 AM

Yeah, I guess it speaks volumes about how TEMPLE DOOM is (by far) my favourite Indy flick.

It does. I like TEMPLE, but y'know me, I'm a RAIDERS lover at heart.

If I had to decide a tone for an INDY V, it would be back to the tone of RAIDERS (which means more "Indy-on-his-own" than any of the sequels ever had), but with a more epic feel. This would, after all, be the last Indiana Jones flick. It should be the grandest.

Y'know, I've never seen any of the YOUNG INDIANA JONES episodes (neither do I wish to, despite the presence of Daniel Craig in one episode and the fact that it had some quite interesting directors, or so I gather).

You're not missing out on much. :(

And I love the idea of the first publicity still from the film being the old Indy, back to camera but still identifiable with the hat, standing in Tiananmen Square looking at a McDonalds (unfortunately, this is something one can actually do).

That would certainly be terrific. Almost sells me on the whole concept.

In its boldness, it reminds me of an unused poster for INDY IV. I've always found it odd that the advertising campaign for INDY IV never banked on this - IMO - pretty iconic image:

Posted Image


It makes me dream of the "Indiana Jones meets the 1950s" flick that could have been.

True. I'd thought of that MUMMY flick, and also of TOMB RAIDER 2, but the difference is that my China (he writes as though he's George bloody Lucas with $200 million to make this nonsense) wouldn't be yer sorta standardised Hollywood exotic China (past a certain point, anyway).

Granted. Still, people would certainly notice the similarity. I wonder if it might be better to set a portion of the story in China, and then go to other strikingly different locales, just to create an added diversity (I daresay that, in keeping with my desires for a true "epic," INDY V should be doing some serious continent hopping).

#2048 Loomis

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 10:43 AM

If I had to decide a tone for an INDY V, it would be back to the tone of RAIDERS (which means more "Indy-on-his-own" than any of the sequels ever had), but with a more epic feel. This would, after all, be the last Indiana Jones flick. It should be the grandest.


Yes, it should certainly be the grandest. (For what ought to have been the biggest film of all time, CRYSTAL SKULL is a ludicrously small affair.) But Indy was never really on his own - he always had Brody, Marion, Sallah, Short Round and, of course, his father. He was probably surrounded by more allies than anyone, including Bond.

In any case, my INDIANA JONES AND THE ROBBERS OF THE FORBIDDEN CITY calls for Indy to be on his own for a significant portion of the flick (while he's being held prisoner in China by Mao and his Red Guards - the story does take a few historical liberties by moving the events of the Cultural Revolution forward by a couple of years, but I think that one of the cool things about the bad guys in this one is that they're dedicated to destroying what Indy values most, i.e. culture and learning). It also calls for Marion (a wonderful character in RAIDERS, yet criminally underused in CRYSTAL SKULL) to take centre stage for a while, play detective and gather together various old Indy movie faces (an Indyverse EXPENDABLES, if you will :( ). I'd like to see Marion get the focus and material she deserves. And then there's Mutt - he may appear only in the 1997 prologue, but I have to say that I don't find his character annoying. He's actually one of the bright spots of CRYSTAL SKULL, just as the similarly heavily-flawed LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD has plenty of problems worse than Justin Long, who's actually pretty good.

And, of course, Indy is hardly a youngster (he's 65 for the main events of ROBBERS), so to have him go it alone would be ridiculous. Even for a flick that's fundamentally silly!

And I love the idea of the first publicity still from the film being the old Indy, back to camera but still identifiable with the hat, standing in Tiananmen Square looking at a McDonalds (unfortunately, this is something one can actually do).

That would certainly be terrific. Almost sells me on the whole concept.

In its boldness, it reminds me of an unused poster for INDY IV. I've always found it odd that the advertising campaign for INDY IV never banked on this - IMO - pretty iconic image:

Posted Image


I was unaware of that poster, but, yes, that's precisely the sort of idea I had in mind. Granted, there's no truly compelling story reason for my 1997 prologue. I mean, you could lose it very easily. All it really tells us is that Indy's lived to an absurdly old age and is about to become a great-grandfather. And quipping with Prince Charles at the Handover ceremony is certainly a little "cute". But I do like the idea of Indy offhandedly confirming the popular rumour about Mao's mausoleum - it sets up a note of mystery for the film to explain later on. And I really love the notion of an Indiana Jones flick beginning in what's more or less the present day. It would really make people sit up and take notice.

I wonder if it might be better to set a portion of the story in China, and then go to other strikingly different locales, just to create an added diversity (I daresay that, in keeping with my desires for a true "epic," INDY V should be doing some serious continent hopping).


Hey, we've already got the Japan of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, and Hong Kong and China in the '60s and '90s - what more do you want? :)

But perhaps we could have a portion of the flick set Stateside, with the 26-year-old Mutt quitting his job as a roadie with The Beatles ("Those guys'll be forgotten in a few years," someone growls) in order to join the military and marry and settle down with his pregnant girlfriend. Perhaps Mutt uses his military connections to help smuggle Marion into China to look for Indy. And then we can not see him in the 1997 prologue and it'll be implied that he ended up being killed in Vietnam. Poignancy, like.

#2049 Harmsway

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 02:26 PM

But Indy was never really on his own - he always had Brody, Marion, Sallah, Short Round and, of course, his father.

Sure, but I'd want to get back closer to RAIDERS, where the supporting figures are there, but not attached at the hip (as it seemed to be from TEMPLE onwards).

And then there's Mutt - he may appear only in the 1997 prologue, but I have to say that I don't find his character annoying. He's actually one of the bright spots of CRYSTAL SKULL, just as the similarly heavily-flawed LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD has plenty of problems worse than Justin Long, who's actually pretty good.

Agreed.

And, of course, Indy is hardly a youngster (he's 65 for the main events of ROBBERS), so to have him go it alone would be ridiculous. Even for a flick that's fundamentally silly!

Naturally. But rather than bringing Mutt/Marion along, I'd probably want some new faces.

Granted, there's no truly compelling story reason for my 1997 prologue.

There isn't, but it does somehow add to the finality of this installment.

Hey, we've already got the Japan of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, and Hong Kong and China in the '60s and '90s - what more do you want? :(

Well, something non-Asian. Greece, Italy, Romania, Madagascar, Iceland... Let's have a relic that calls for Indy to cross over continent to continent.

Perhaps Mutt uses his military connections to help smuggle Marion into China to look for Indy. And then we can not see him in the 1997 prologue and it'll be implied that he ended up being killed in Vietnam. Poignancy, like.

That's an easy link to make. I like that bit, actually.

#2050 Loomis

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 03:57 PM

And, of course, Indy is hardly a youngster (he's 65 for the main events of ROBBERS), so to have him go it alone would be ridiculous. Even for a flick that's fundamentally silly!

Naturally. But rather than bringing Mutt/Marion along, I'd probably want some new faces.


Well, we could always lose them both, but if Marion isn't there, who goes searching for Indy after he's kidnapped? Besides, I like the idea of putting the focus on Marion for a while and giving her some good material. As you'll recall from RAIDERS, she's actually quite a strong and resourceful character. Willie Scott and Short Round you probably don't need, though, but, heck, it might be nice to give 'em a scene or two.

Hey, we've already got the Japan of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, and Hong Kong and China in the '60s and '90s - what more do you want? :(

Well, something non-Asian. Greece, Italy, Romania, Madagascar, Iceland... Let's have a relic that calls for Indy to cross over continent to continent.


To keep the TEMPLE OF DOOM link going, perhaps it could be the remains of Nurhachi, which Chairman Mao wants to, let's say, smoke, in the belief that it will give him eternal life and/or magical powers, or whatever. What happened to those remains in TEMPLE, BTW? I forget.

#2051 marktmurphy

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:09 PM

"Oooh let's have Aliens!"

In essence, I still think this was a smart idea (or at least the broader concept of drawing on the tradition of 1950s B-movie creature flicks was). Mishandled, but smart.


I agree- aliens and Indy do sort of work, I think: especially when you add the 'Chariots of the Gods' angle as in Kingdom. Using them in the 50's is a great idea. I think that's a smarter way of handling them than in Saucer Men as it ties with Indy-style archeology and locations better, but what should have been a big revelation about their existence in Kingdom was mishandled a bit- especially with that bit at the end with Indy discovering cave paintings proving they came to Earth: catch up Indy, we worked that out back in Area 51! :( Perhaps they just felt that it would shock the audience too much and lose them so they went for a sort of 'soft' reveal by having everyone mention them through the film. Having Indy discover aliens is progressive and new, though, but still sits within the world of Indy- I think it was a good concept to move Indy forward and freshen him up (it's not the first time, either- I still have an Indiana Jones Annual from 1989 which features a comic strip which has Indy seeing other dimensionly beings at Stonehenge! Never seemed out of place to me as a kid; and Kingdom handles them better).
It's a good idea, and part of my enjoyment of Kingdom comes watching it and wondering how good it could have been. There's a very good Indy film in there struggling to get out. The concept is sound.

If I had to decide a tone for an INDY V, it would be back to the tone of RAIDERS (which means more "Indy-on-his-own" than any of the sequels ever had), but with a more epic feel. This would, after all, be the last Indiana Jones flick. It should be the grandest.


With you there. I think you might have to have a token Mutt appearance just to explain where he is, but there's no reason to have him there for the whole thing.
I do love Temple, though- there's a bonkers pace to it which I'd love a new Indy to do. The way it starts is fantastic as it just doesn't let up; and John Williams is the most enthusiastic he's ever been for Indy.

And then there's Mutt - he may appear only in the 1997 prologue, but I have to say that I don't find his character annoying. He's actually one of the bright spots of CRYSTAL SKULL, just as the similarly heavily-flawed LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD has plenty of problems worse than Justin Long, who's actually pretty good.


Agreed; they're both decent. I think they were probably very well aware of the importance of not being annoying in those roles. Long is a bit more daring, probably (Mutt veers on the side of almost bland) but both do very well.

And, of course, Indy is hardly a youngster (he's 65 for the main events of ROBBERS), so to have him go it alone would be ridiculous. Even for a flick that's fundamentally silly!


I don't mind him having an entourage, but he can certainly do portions on his own. The beginning of Skull showed, I think, that he's got more lonesome mileage in him yet. Who doesn't want to see Harrison mugging away? He's great.

And, of course, Indy is hardly a youngster (he's 65 for the main events of ROBBERS), so to have him go it alone would be ridiculous. Even for a flick that's fundamentally silly!

Naturally. But rather than bringing Mutt/Marion along, I'd probably want some new faces.


I was trying to think of interesting sidekicks for Indy a while back: I wondered if he could team up with a French museum curator who turns out (you're ahead of me!) to be Belloq's daughter. She eventually find out who he is, and in a TSWLM-style way promises to kill him by the end. A bit fanwanky, though. I suppose you could some sort of flashback in the opening showing Indy killing her dad (who's not Belloq). But that just is TSWLM!

Perhaps Mutt uses his military connections to help smuggle Marion into China to look for Indy. And then we can not see him in the 1997 prologue and it'll be implied that he ended up being killed in Vietnam. Poignancy, like.

That's an easy link to make. I like that bit, actually.


I like the idea of Mutt having military connections- makes sense as his dad was an army guy too. That's how I'd bring him back in Indy 5: as an Elvis-style GI. That means he'd be interesting as he'd be a bit of a changed character, plus he wouldn't have to be around too much.

#2052 Harmsway

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:35 PM

Besides, I like the idea of putting the focus on Marion for a while and giving her some good material. As you'll recall from RAIDERS, she's actually quite a strong and resourceful character.

Maybe, but I'm not sure Karen Allen has it in her to make Marion a good character anymore. One of the things I noticed while reading the KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL shooting script is that Marion did read marginally better than she played in the finished film (not that the script handles her well, per se), so it looks to me like Allen is, at least in part, the problem with how awkwardly her character plays in KINGDOM.

If Allen can really pull off some of that circa-1981 Marion magic, by all means bring her along for the ride, though.

Willie Scott and Short Round you probably don't need, though, but, heck, it might be nice to give 'em a scene or two.

Maybe. I'm not big on gimmicky "franchise links," so I'd personally prefer to drop 'em.

To keep the TEMPLE OF DOOM link going, perhaps it could be the remains of Nurhachi, which Chairman Mao wants to, let's say, smoke, in the belief that it will give him eternal life and/or magical powers, or whatever.

Why would those call for a continent-wide search? Lao Che got 'em, and they're probably sitting in his collection somewhere.

Nor are the remains of Nurhachi a particularly compelling artifact. This is the 65-year-old Indy we're talking about, a married guy who's a dean of archaeology. If he's going to go running around the world, he's gotta be looking for something big, not some minor artifact like the ashes of Nurhachi (something he was willing to trade, after all; Indy really wanted the diamond).

It's a good idea, and part of my enjoyment of Kingdom comes watching it and wondering how good it could have been. There's a very good Indy film in there struggling to get out. The concept is sound.

Oddly enough, it's the same with me. I find KINGDOM fun, in some sense, not because of what it was, but because of what it wants to be.

I do love Temple, though- there's a bonkers pace to it which I'd love a new Indy to do. The way it starts is fantastic as it just doesn't let up; and John Williams is the most enthusiastic he's ever been for Indy.

Sure, but I wonder if such a "bonkers" flick is right for the Last Indiana Jones Adventuretm. This flick has to be the real book-end to the franchise, and should essentially be the ROCKY BALBOA to RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK's ROCKY.

I don't mind him having an entourage, but he can certainly do portions on his own. The beginning of Skull showed, I think, that he's got more lonesome mileage in him yet. Who doesn't want to see Harrison mugging away? He's great.

:(

I was trying to think of interesting sidekicks for Indy a while back: I wondered if he could team up with a French museum curator who turns out (you're ahead of me!) to be Belloq's daughter. She eventually find out who he is, and in a TSWLM-style way promises to kill him by the end. A bit fanwanky, though.

Yeah, as I stated above, I'm not too big on franchise self-references. I more or less like my Indy flicks to be independent of one another, perhaps with a few winks to previous installments, but nothing too substantial.

Perhaps Mutt uses his military connections to help smuggle Marion into China to look for Indy. And then we can not see him in the 1997 prologue and it'll be implied that he ended up being killed in Vietnam. Poignancy, like.

That's an easy link to make. I like that bit, actually.

I like the idea of Mutt having military connections- makes sense as his dad was an army guy too. That's how I'd bring him back in Indy 5: as an Elvis-style GI. That means he'd be interesting as he'd be a bit of a changed character, plus he wouldn't have to be around too much.

Not a bad idea, by any stretch.

#2053 marktmurphy

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:50 PM

Maybe, but I'm not sure Karen Allen has it in her to make Marion a good character anymore. One of the things I noticed while reading the KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL shooting script is that Marion did read marginally better than she played in the finished film (not that the script handles her well, per se), so it looks to me like Allen is, at least in part, the problem with how awkwardly her character plays in KINGDOM.


Definitely- the more sidelining the better for her, I think. I'd rather have Mutt than Marion.

Willie Scott and Short Round you probably don't need, though, but, heck, it might be nice to give 'em a scene or two.

Maybe. I'm not big on gimmicky "franchise links," so I'd personally prefer to drop 'em.


Yeah, I've popped to Indy forums recently and loads would seemingly like to see Short Round back. I have no idea why.

I do love Temple, though- there's a bonkers pace to it which I'd love a new Indy to do. The way it starts is fantastic as it just doesn't let up; and John Williams is the most enthusiastic he's ever been for Indy.

Sure, but I wonder if such a "bonkers" flick is right for the Last Indiana Jones Adventuretm. This flick has to be the real book-end to the franchise, and should essentially be the ROCKY BALBOA to RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK's ROCKY.


No, I don't agree there. Another thing I like about Kingdom is that there's no attempt to 'bring back' Indy (have him dust off the fedora or whatever) or to end his story because there's no need to do that. It's Indiana Jones 4; it's not Indiana Jones Revisited. He doesn't need a bookend- he just needs an adventure. That's why when we find him he's already in his adventure gear- he hasn't stopped in the twenty years we last saw him; or rather he's ceased to exist because he doesn't need a life outside the films: he's simply Indiana Jones. They're just adventure films; I'm not sure I want to see a film that's about or celebrates the lead character just for the sake of the fact that some films he was in were good: they should just try to make the new film as good. City of Gods was more bookendy than KOTCS because it referenced Raiders so much, but even then it wasn't too much of a final end: it was pitched about right for that sort of thing, I think.

#2054 Harmsway

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:57 PM

Definitely- the more sidelining the better for her, I think. I'd rather have Mutt than Marion.

Yup. Though I have to say the film would feel a bit odd without a prominent female presence.

That's why when we find him he's already in his adventure gear- he hasn't stopped in the twenty years we last saw him; or rather he's ceased to exist because he doesn't need a life outside the films: he's simply Indiana Jones.

That was actually one of my disappointments. Darabont's draft at least acknowledged that Indy had settled down in between flicks, had stopped adventuring, and didn't have him in his full garb until later in the flick. I loved that Darabont's draft really did feel like an end-cap to the franchise, and not just another "episode." It felt significant in a way that KINGDOM never manages.

They're just adventure films; I'm not sure I want to see a film that's about or celebrates the lead character just for the sake of the fact that some films he was in were good: they should just try to make the new film as good.

Why not have a film that is both as good, and a film that successfully functions as an end-cap. I really do want INDY V to be the most epic, grandiose Indy adventure because it's going to be, and should be, The Last Great Indiana Jones AdventureTM. This should be the Indy adventure to blow 'em all out of the water, and the one that really brings things to a kind of close. There should be a definite sense of finality to this one.

That's not to say that Indy should do anything obvious like hanging the hat up at the end, but I do want to feel a real sense of completion. That this was the big one, that Indy's more or less settling down in his ways, and while there were probably adventures after it, this was the last truly great adventure of Dr. Henry "Indiana" Jones, Jr.

#2055 Loomis

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 05:08 PM

To keep the TEMPLE OF DOOM link going, perhaps it could be the remains of Nurhachi, which Chairman Mao wants to, let's say, smoke, in the belief that it will give him eternal life and/or magical powers, or whatever.

Why would those call for a continent-wide search? Lao Che got 'em, and they're probably sitting in his collection somewhere.


No problem. Let's say that the fanatically anti-communist Lao Che fled Shanghai before the establishment of the People's Republic and now lives in, say, Jerusalem (don't ask). Indy's knowledge is required to track Lao down and discover where the remains are. And let's say that Lao has put them in a purpose-built fortress in, say, Portugal, with the treasure right at the top and fanatical martial artists standing guard on each storey (shades of Bruce Lee's planned GAME OF DEATH). So Mao must send his own elite squad or best martial artist (Michelle Yeoh?) to recover it. There ya go: widens the thing out a little to encompass more of the world (although I don't actually share your view that we need a continent-wide search). We just need interesting backdrops. Quality, not quantity.

Nor are the remains of Nurhachi a particularly compelling artifact. This is the 65-year-old Indy we're talking about, a married guy who's a dean of archaeology. If he's going to go running around the world, he's gotta be looking for something big, not some minor artifact like the ashes of Nurhachi (something he was willing to trade, after all; Indy really wanted the diamond).


Ah, but in this one Indy isn't looking for anything. It's Chairman Mao who's after the relic, and even then all he wants is Indy's already-established knowledge rather than his skills an a digger-up of things. In a way, Indy is the relic, not just because of his age (ho ho) and because Mao has had him stolen, but also because Marion also needs to get him back.

You've probably noted that the supernatural element is a bit lacking in this one, but what I have in mind is that the relic (Nurhachi's ashes, let's say for the sake of argument) isn't all-conquering, as such. Instead, what it does is give different people different powers, like a one-time-only genie-of-the-lamp deal, e.g. Mao gets otherworldly kung fu ability for his CROUCHING TIGEResque fight scene with Indy, while Lao Che opts to assume Mao's appearance in order to take over China.

#2056 Harmsway

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 05:24 PM

So Mao must send his own elite squad or best martial artist (Michelle Yeoh?) to recover it.

Michelle Yeoh? You really are keen on making INDY V a sort of part II to THE MUMMY: TOMB OF THE DRAGON EMPEROR, aren't ya? :(

There ya go: widens the thing out a little to encompass more of the world (although I don't actually share your view that we need a continent-wide search). We just need interesting backdrops. Quality, not quantity.

Why not have quality and quantity? :)

You don't have to share my view, but in my quest for the Most Epic Indiana Jones Adventure of All TimeTM, I daresay a relic that speaks to more than just one culture - perhaps uniting two ones that don't seem to have any connection at all - would be a fine way of going about that.

But I have to confess I'm also simply being a little resistant to seeing an entire "Indy in Asia" adventure. After MUMMY: TOMB OF THE DRAGON EMPEROR, TOMB RAIDER 2, and INDIANA JONES AND THE EMPEROR'S TOMB (a video game released a few years ago), this kind of thing just feels a little... done, despite your decidedly unique and original spin on the whole thing by bringing Chairman Mao into the picture.

And I'm just thinking, instead of the well-trod territories of Japan/China, why not focus on the Philippines? Surely that's an area that hasn't had a whole lot of focus in this genre, and could lend itself to some interesting exploration.

You've probably noted that the supernatural element is a bit lacking in this one, but what I have in mind is that the relic (Nurhachi's ashes, let's say for the sake of argument) isn't all-conquering, as such. Instead, what it does is give different people different powers, like a one-time-only genie-of-the-lamp deal, e.g. Mao gets otherworldly kung fu ability for his CROUCHING TIGEResque fight scene with Indy, while Lao Che opts to assume Mao's appearance in order to take over China.

Fair enough, but you might want to rethink the "Mao gets Kung Fu abilities" thing, given that MUMMY III had its baddie mummy doing the CROUCHING TIGEResque fight scene at the end. :)

And if you want a good Asian relic, I would suggest the Tide Jewels of the Dragon King (a Japanese myth). The tide jewels allowed the Dragon King to control the ocean. And, as a bonus, the Dragon King had an underwater palace made of coral, which could surely provide an interesting fantasy setting for the finale. That might not tie in with your Lao/Mao thing so well, but it does connect with mythological tapestry better than, say, the ashes of Nurhachi or what have you, would.

#2057 Loomis

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 05:44 PM

An underwater palace made of coral? Ugh, just think of how Lucas would CGI it up. :(

Believe it or not, I haven't seen MUMMY III (or indeed any other "films" in that franchise). But, hey, great minds think alike, I guess. :)

And we'd better forget Michelle Yeoh. Maggie Q, Shu Qi or Zhang Ziyi should do the trick.

And, sorry, but I'm determined to be a TEMPLE OF DOOM fanboy, so how about Ric Young as Mao (a role he has, of course, played already, in NIXON)?

#2058 Harmsway

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 05:50 PM

An underwater palace made of coral? Ugh, just think of how Lucas would CGI it up. :(

Lucas? The CGI in KINGDOM was entirely Spielberg's call.

Nevermind that I think this set could be done entirely for real, as it were. It's all underwater - so no windows - and so it could essentially boil down to a bunch of big sets with coral-styled walls. Just make sure it all looks pretty striking, and viola, underwater palace. The only time CGI might come into it is during the requisite collapse/flooding as Indy and co. rush out of it. :)

Believe it or not, I haven't seen MUMMY III (or indeed any other "films" in that franchise). But, hey, great minds think alike, I guess. :)

Well, it is a testament to the fact that the MUMMY franchise is at least built on some decent ideas, though I daresay your overall concept is infinitely more interesting than what MUMMY 3 managed. MUMMY 3 was among the worst films I saw last summer. It made KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL seem like a magnificent piece of summer spectacle.

And, sorry, but I'm determined to be a TEMPLE OF DOOM fanboy, so how about Ric Young as Mao (a role he has, of course, played already, in NIXON)?

It's interesting that you link your idea with your love of TEMPLE OF DOOM. Your idea doesn't strike me as remotely being connected to it, beyond a few small things (Asian locales, character reappearances). In essence, it strikes me as more the product of a fan of THE YOUNG INDIANA JONES CHRONICLES, what with its dependence on the historical setting and use of the ancient old Indy as a kind of flashback device.

I'd be expecting something a whole lot pulpier from a TEMPLE fan.

#2059 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 07:57 PM

You know, why not have the ashes of Nurhachi as a set-up relic, being the prerequisite for Mao to reveal his obsession with the Tide Jewels of the Dragon King; unfortunately, only his former subordinate, Lao Che, knows the markers to where they are located, and he's in Taiwan. Indy then gets shipped off to Taiwan through Vietnam, where Ho Chi Minh promises to spirit him to the coast; unfortunately, his men get in a conflict with a platoon of soldiers, one of whom is Mutt. Ho Chi Minh's men are all killed, and now it's Mutt's troops who have to get Indy to the coast.

Later on, the ashes of Nurhachi make a repeat appearance, when Lao Che steals them from Chairman Mao and snorts them to become a great warrior, and he engages Indy in hand-to-hand combat; finally. when Indy is pinned down and Lao Che seems ready to triumph, Mao (who had been knocked out by one of Lao Che's blows) awakes, grabs Indy's pistol, and shoots Lao Che in the head, all the while giving an identical look as that when Indy shoots the swordsman in Raiders. :(

#2060 marktmurphy

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:28 AM

Had a brief flick through the shooting script last night and you're right- it is even more talky. Scenes just seem to carry on aimlessly after their natural end: the cemetery fight ends naturally with 'Part time' but in the script it just keeps going with Mutt picking up his knife and other dull bits. The fight reads a little better than it played onscreen though: a shame they ditched the whip action.
But most bizarre is that the gag in the truck when they're all tied up and Mutt throws Indy his knife to cut himself free isn't explained at all! I can't work out what's supposed to have happened (has Indy torn his trousers?) and the script just has Mutt say 'oh :(!!' for no apparent reason!? Eh?

#2061 DamnCoffee

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:01 AM

You know, why not have the ashes of Nurhachi as a set-up relic, being the prerequisite for Mao to reveal his obsession with the Tide Jewels of the Dragon King; unfortunately, only his former subordinate, Lao Che, knows the markers to where they are located, and he's in Taiwan. Indy then gets shipped off to Taiwan through Vietnam, where Ho Chi Minh promises to spirit him to the coast; unfortunately, his men get in a conflict with a platoon of soldiers, one of whom is Mutt. Ho Chi Minh's men are all killed, and now it's Mutt's troops who have to get Indy to the coast.

Later on, the ashes of Nurhachi make a repeat appearance, when Lao Che steals them from Chairman Mao and snorts them to become a great warrior, and he engages Indy in hand-to-hand combat; finally. when Indy is pinned down and Lao Che seems ready to triumph, Mao (who had been knocked out by one of Lao Che's blows) awakes, grabs Indy's pistol, and shoots Lao Che in the head, all the while giving an identical look as that when Indy shoots the swordsman in Raiders. :)


Interesting Idea. :(

#2062 Mr Teddy Bear

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 02:02 PM

Just finished reading CITY OF THE GODS, and boy, what a missed opportunity. It would've provoked much of the same 'internet rage' that KINGDOM did (needed much more CGI by necessity, had more over the top scenes than KINGDOM, ALIENS, how Un-Indy!!! :( ), but the script is tighter, tells a more interesting story and many of the scenes read better than what we got in KINGDOM, plus the pacing is much better and less lethargic. Best of all, CITY OF THE GODS feels like a successor to RAIDERS and not CRUSADE.

The most obvious short coming isthe 'fanboy' moments, like quoting dialogue from RAIDERS (I actually liked the drunk reenactment though)- something that easily could've been remedied with minor touchups. I can't believe something so minor is my biggest complaint!

Boy, I'm still stunned that Lucas passed on this to conclude at KINGDOM a few years later. It's not like he decided to change course or direction, he just waited around for a more lethargic and looser script. Was he really that keen to give Indy offspring? I can't think of any other major difference as to why he wanted KINGDOM.

The monkey pooped on my chest.

#2063 JimmyBond

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 06:56 PM

One day I'll give Kingdom another chance, but for now it's really killed my enthusiasm in the Indy series. I even have a signed ToD poster in my room, and it kicks the :( of my Kingdom poster that I also have up in my room.

#2064 danielcraigisjamesbond007

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:25 PM

For some reason I wasn't bothered by the <Spoiler alert!>aliens in Indy 4. Yet, everyone I know hated them. Am I alone on this???

#2065 JimmyBond

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:34 PM

I loved that angle of the movie, that was one of the parts I was most hyped about. It was the horrible pacing and the lethargic action sequences that killed my interest in the movie. Plus the finale is too rushed.

#2066 DamnCoffee

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 10:07 AM

For some reason I wasn't bothered by the <Spoiler alert!>aliens in Indy 4. Yet, everyone I know hated them. Am I alone on this???


It's not the fact they used Aliens why everyone is annoyed. It's how poorly they executed it.
Why the need to show them? We didn't need to see Christ to believe in the Holy Grail did we? Or Satan to believe in the Stones? There was ziltch need for them to be shown. Plus, the ending just ripped off The Mummy. *Looks on in shame and disbelief at everything being sucked back into the Temple.*

#2067 Safari Suit

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 11:41 AM

I think a lot of fans were dead set against the alien angle before they even saw the execution.

#2068 DamnCoffee

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:51 PM

I thought I'd ressurect this thread with a fan trailer for TLC I threw together, in the style of the KOTCS teaser trailer....



#2069 sharpshooter

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 04:28 PM

Excellent work.

#2070 DamnCoffee

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 04:59 PM

Here's a follow up video I made. A Theatrical Trailer for The Last Crusade. :tdown:



WATCH IN HQ! B)