2519 replies to this topic

[Matt_13]

Neat trailer.

[marktmurphy]

It looks more horrible than I would've guessed. I mean, it looks graphically worse than Emperor's Tomb, a 6 year old PS2 game. Truly shoddy work there.

Wii graphics aren't they? The Wii doesn't do amazing graphics.
Odd that PS2 is mentioned but PS3 and the like aren't.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

It looks more horrible than I would've guessed. I mean, it looks graphically worse than Emperor's Tomb, a 6 year old PS2 game. Truly shoddy work there.

Wii graphics aren't they? The Wii doesn't do amazing graphics.
Odd that PS2 is mentioned but PS3 and the like aren't.

It doesn't do amazing, but something is wrong if they aren't better than a 6 year old PS2 game.

[marktmurphy]

Well I'm no expert, but I don't think the Wii does do better graphics than the PS2, no.

[DamnCoffee]

Neat trailer.

He runs like Woody from Toy Story.

[Matt_13]

Neat trailer.

He runs like Woody from Toy Story.

LOL Great observation.

[Harmsway]

I was reading through the INDIANA JONES AND THE CITY OF GODS script again, and was just lamenting at what could have been. Aw, Lucas, why'd you have to veto it?

[Loomis]

From what little I've read about it it sounds somewhat OTT. (I mean, the baddie is a Peruvian dictator who gets turned into a frog, at which point Indy squishes him? Riiiiiiiight.)

Why do you think this would have made a better movie, Harms?

[Harmsway]

From what little I've read about it it sounds somewhat OTT.

It is in places (sometimes they're the "bumps" in quality, but sometimes it's also sometimes over-the-top in a really, really fun way). Outrageousness is not necessarily a bad thing when handled in the right way.

(I mean, the baddie is a Peruvian dictator who gets turned into a frog, at which point Indy squishes him? Riiiiiiiight.)

He's one of the villains. There are a handful in this one (kind of like in RAIDERS, where you had a bit of an ensemble). And frankly, that moment reads a lot better than it sounds... the whole scene is kind of chilling, really.

Why do you think this would have made a better movie, Harms?

Everything about it is better. Better set-pieces (even the ones that made it into the movie are much more audacious and inventive here), better story, better characterization, better sense of humor, and in a lot of ways, it's a proper end-cap to the franchise and character. It ain't perfect, but it's buckets of fun, which is something the finished film never managed to be.

And it also would have had the benefit of an excited, amped-up Spielberg, who was extremely eager to shoot this script (over the following four years, it's clear that his enthusiasm for the project drained out, a lot).

[Turn]

From what little I've read about it it sounds somewhat OTT. (I mean, the baddie is a Peruvian dictator who gets turned into a frog, at which point Indy squishes him? Riiiiiiiight.)

I'd say characters swinging with monkeys in the trees and catching up with vehicles on the ground and aliens coming to life and killing the main baddie in KOTCS in the exact same fashion as ROTLA to go OTT as well.

[DamnCoffee]

Raiders, Temple and Crusade have been confirmed for a Blu-Ray release. They should be in stores by the end of the year.

[marktmurphy]

Why do you think this would have made a better movie, Harms?

Everything about it is better. Better set-pieces (even the ones that made it into the movie are much more audacious and inventive here), better story, better characterization, better sense of humor, and in a lot of ways, it's a proper end-cap to the franchise and character. It ain't perfect, but it's buckets of fun, which is something the finished film never managed to be.

I do like it a lot and probably prefer it to Skull, although there are elements of Skull I'd have chucked in there too: Spalko is a good villain, I like the diner scene and motorbike chase, and sidelining Marion probably wasn't a bad idea, as it turned out. The aerial stuff seems okay, but I can't see it working onscreen: it features Indy shouting to someone in another biplane, for starters! Plus there aren't any archeology or booby-trap bits, which you do sort of need for Indy. The climax of Gods needs a bit of work, too. A combination of the two would have been great.
I do think the snake gag is great too, no matter what anyone says!

[Harmsway]

Spalko is a good villain,

Eh, the more I see of KINGDOM, the less I like her. She doesn't at all carry a sense of menace or threat. Heck, even what potential she offers as a kind of comic booky psychic foe is entirely squandered. I vastly prefer the set of nasty villains that CITY OF THE GODS offers (even if their continual war with one another is a bit over-stressed in Darabont's draft).

I like the diner scene and motorbike chase

The diner scene's fine (though CITY OF THE GODS has an opening diner scene, so it's not like you'd lose it altogether), but nothing particularly worth missing. I think the motorbike chase was a mistake. It's standard Indy, so it's inoffensive, but it's not particularly striking. All of the set-pieces in CITY OF THE GODS are vastly superior to the relatively through-the-motions motorbike chase.

and sidelining Marion probably wasn't a bad idea, as it turned out.

This is probably the case - Allen was hardly too impressive in KINGDOM, to put it mildly - but I do wonder what she would have done with the CITY OF THE GODS script, which gives her character a pretty different tone.

The aerial stuff seems okay, but I can't see it working onscreen: it features Indy shouting to someone in another biplane, for starters!

With a few tweaks, I could see it working. It might be outrageous in that sort of comic-book way, but - minus a moment or two - it's a pretty suspenseful read. It's certainly a more exciting set-piece conceptually than what KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL has going on.

What I like about CITY OF THE GODS' action is that it at least attempts to be epic. It might have been too epic, but it's all crazy, audacious stuff that sounds like a lot of fun. It's making a real attempt to deliver on the crowd-pleasing action spectacle that the first two Indy films were founded on. The set-pieces in KINGDOM, by comparison, all feel really restrained, with very little attempt to ratchet up the thrills (in that way, it kind of resembles the lazy action of LAST CRUSADE).

Plus there aren't any archeology or booby-trap bits, which you do sort of need for Indy.

What are you talking about? There's plenty of archaeology throughout. Not booby-traps, maybe, but who says that Indy needs to adhere to a rigid formula?

The climax of Gods needs a bit of work, too.

I don't really think it does, besides a minor tweak or two. I think it's a pretty great climax, and the one area where it's really miles beyond what KINGDOM serves up. It makes the alien thing work.

[Safari Suit]

(I mean, the baddie is a Peruvian dictator who gets turned into a frog, at which point Indy squishes him? Riiiiiiiight.)

Sounds fun. And a little unnerving.

[marktmurphy]

Spalko is a good villain,

Eh, the more I see of KINGDOM, the less I like her. She doesn't at all carry a sense of menace or threat. Heck, even what potential she offers as a kind of comic booky psychic foe is entirely squandered. I vastly prefer the set of nasty villains that CITY OF THE GODS offers (even if their continual war with one another is a bit over-stressed in Darabont's draft).

Some of it works, some of it doesn't. The main one (Yuri, isn't it?) is pretty dull- the dictator's fun but doesn't appear much... I think it's one draft off having a good set of villains. Spalko's just a bit more fun for me.

I like the diner scene and motorbike chase

The diner scene's fine (though CITY OF THE GODS has an opening diner scene, so it's not like you'd lose it altogether), but nothing particularly worth missing. I think the motorbike chase was a mistake. It's standard Indy, so it's inoffensive, but it's not particularly striking. All of the set-pieces in CITY OF THE GODS are vastly superior to the relatively through-the-motions motorbike chase.

Yeah, but then you have to wonder if the Skull ones didn't look as good on the page too. A motorbike chase through the streets of a 50's town, a university, a football ground, with Indy fighting his way in and out of moving cars; a high speed chase through a jungle with all of the cast swapping vehicles in order to chase the constantly-moving skull... A lot of it was pretty much down to Spielberg; he made it all a bit peril-less and thin... it's all in the execution.
Such a shame they didn't use the Jungle Cutter more- imagine if Mutt hadn't come swininging out of those trees but Indy had burst through driving the Cutter instead...

and sidelining Marion probably wasn't a bad idea, as it turned out.

This is probably the case - Allen was hardly too impressive in KINGDOM, to put it mildly - but I do wonder what she would have done with the CITY OF THE GODS script, which gives her character a pretty different tone.

Well, it's written as if it's a couple of weeks after Raiders; sexy low-cut dresses and all. I actually prefer Marion as written in Skull; at least she's moved on a bit- she's had a kid so at least there's some realisation that she isn't in her 30's anymore.

Plus there aren't any archeology or booby-trap bits, which you do sort of need for Indy.

What are you talking about? There's plenty of archaeology throughout. Not booby-traps, maybe, but who says that Indy needs to adhere to a rigid formula?

I dunno; I'd have been a bit disappointed if he didn't do any underground-traps sort of stuff. All of the previous three have done it. I dislike the larger formula of Indy-against-an-army-chasing-a-thing-which-destroys-them, but you've got to have Indy in the natural outdoors having action scenes and occasionally delving into a temple or two; just as James Bond should go to cities and do a little spying here and there.


I did enjoy Gods, though- I particularly like the sort of reappearance of the Bogart-style Indy and the on-the-run bits are rather lovely, although perhaps dropped a little too early, as in Skull (although it holds onto the idea slightly longer). There's maybe a bit too much Raiders in there (another truck chase?) but it's a fun read, especially if you pop the Indy soundtracks into iTunes and select the appropriate tracks as you read! I'll have to give it another go. I don't think it's completely superior to Skull as I think there are some better ideas and solutions in Skull, but I'd probably go for a 20/80 mix of Skull to Gods.
Love that bit at the beginning with Indy trying to raise some help in the guard's cabin "send dogs!"; you can see Ford doing that pretty instantly.


Anyway; where did we get to with our Indy 5 ideas?

[Harmsway]

The main one (Yuri, isn't it?) is pretty dull

I don't think Yuri's the main baddie (and yeah, he admittedly isn't the most interesting character, though it would really depend on the performance). I'd pin Baron Peter Belasco (Marion's hubbie) as the main baddie, really.

the dictator's fun but doesn't appear much...

If you read through again, you might be surprised at how much of a presence he is in CITY OF THE GODS. He shows up quite a bit.

Yeah, but then you have to wonder if the Skull ones didn't look as good on the page too. A motorbike chase through the streets of a 50's town, a university, a football ground, with Indy fighting his way in and out of moving cars

Well, as far as that one goes, I read the sequence in THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS script back in the day. It struck me as pretty dull then, too.

Well, it's written as if it's a couple of weeks after Raiders; sexy low-cut dresses and all. I actually prefer Marion as written in Skull; at least she's moved on a bit- she's had a kid so at least there's some realisation that she isn't in her 30's anymore.

I liked it better in CITY OF THE GODS. Yes, she's acting somewhat young (to an extent, though, since her interactions with her husband strike me as pretty mature, and she seems to have really pushed into a more take-charge adult mentality since we last saw her), but that's the fun of it... she and Indy are like adult children who never really settled down and grew up, and then finally do at the end.

I dislike the larger formula of Indy-against-an-army-chasing-a-thing-which-destroys-them, but you've got to have Indy in the natural outdoors having action scenes and occasionally delving into a temple or two; just as James Bond should go to cities and do a little spying here and there.

Well, he gets his "big temple" at the end in GODS, so it's hardly entirely absent.

Love that bit at the beginning with Indy trying to raise some help in the guard's cabin "send dogs!"; you can see Ford doing that pretty instantly.

Oh yeah. It struck me as very similar to the Han Solo prison block exchange from STAR WARS.

Anyway; where did we get to with our Indy 5 ideas?

My favorite bit (that I think you suggested) was an opening sequence at a movie studio, with Indy serving as some kind of consultant. But as far as the rest of it is concerned - the Bow of Nimrod, etc. - I think we should go back to the drawing board.

Any ideas?

[Harmsway]

Well, David Koepp's script has finally leaked onto the web, so we can now answer the question of "Did the script read well and did Spielberg just muck it up?"

Well, frankly, I think Koepp's script is a pretty terrible read. It's astonishingly dull, and by far the least exciting of the INDY IV scripts I've gotten my hands on. Koepp's flaccid script is even talkier and more drawn out than the finished film. I've never read such a lifeless piece of screenwriting.

Indeed, looking at this script, one can see that Spielberg's finished film is actually an improvement on Koepp's extremely unwieldy screenplay, astonishing though that may be, if only by nature of editing out so much of the dead time and gratuitous conversation. And I daresay a lot of the scenes actually come across better than they read, to boot.

[JimmyBond]

Just curious Harms, anything in the script that you wished had been kept in the film?

[Harmsway]

Just curious Harms, anything in the script that you wished had been kept in the film?

About the only thing would be the absence of the so-called "gray alien." The aliens stays as skeletons.

There was also an interesting moment between Spalko/Mac which played up her psychic abilities and referenced her frustration in trying to get the skull to speak to her. It was nice because it played off of some things that were only mentioned in the flick, but still, because of the way Koepp structured it, it was terribly talky and a distraction from the main story. So I don't wish it had been kept, but it was interesting to read.

[sharpshooter]

About the only thing would be the absence of the so-called "gray alien." The aliens stays as skeletons.

That would have been much better.

[Harmsway]

I just found this bit of INDY V non-news from way back when. After receiving the Cecil B. DeMille award in December, Spielberg said this backstage:

"Some day there may be another Indiana Jones. George and I have had a couple of conversations about 'What If?' we made another Indiana Jones film, but right now we aren't in the position to do that."

[marktmurphy]

I can't be arsed to read it, to be honest. It pretty much is the film as far as I've read with some little bits that got chopped out (like Mac being threatened with being run over) so I can't see any reason to keep going. It is less zingy than City of the Gods though, yes.

[Harmsway]

I can't be arsed to read it, to be honest.

Nor should you, really, unless you're a die-hard about such things. I'm a screenplay junkie, honestly, and I'm also very, very curious about how things shook down in the production of INDY IV... this definitely helps shed some light on things.

It pretty much is the film as far as I've read with some little bits that got chopped out (like Mac being threatened with being run over) so I can't see any reason to keep going.

Indeed. Though I daresay it gets worse as it goes on, as the script begins to just meander about without a whole lot of aim or purpose. In content, the shooting script is as you describe it: the finished film, but with lots of little bits that got chopped out along the way. The film itself is already way too talky. Here, everything stretches into serious tedium.

In some places, I'm actually stunned by how little grasp Koepp seems to have of pacing individual scenes. Koepp doesn't really have a sense of how to write dialogue concisely, nor does he seem to know when a scene has effectively "ended." Spielberg seems to understand this better than Koepp, which is why the script has plenty of dialogue that was either excised on set or cut in the editing room. Some of the more awkward edits in the film appear to be due to Spielberg's efforts to cut out extraneous and uninteresting exchanges.

Overall, I'm astonished by how poorly it reads. I read screenplays all the time, but this must be one of the absolute worst I've encountered. If I was handed the screenplay without having seen KINGDOM OF THE GODS, I'd be imagining a significantly worse product than we actually got.

[marktmurphy]

If I was handed the screenplay without having seen KINGDOM OF THE GODS,

You see; I rold you a mix between the two scripts would work! Actually, I think that's a snappier title than either had!

[Harmsway]

If I was handed the screenplay without having seen KINGDOM OF THE GODS,

You see; I told you a mix between the two scripts would work!

Actually, I think that's a snappier title than either had!

Maybe so, and it have still allowed for Lucas' desire to have "Kingdom" somewhere in the title.

[DamnCoffee]

Actually, I think that's a snappier title than either had!

Maybe so, and it have still allowed for Lucas' desire to have "Kingdom" somewhere in the title.

You see, this is what annoys me. If Speilberg is the director and Lucas is the producer, why does Spielberg let him call the shots on everything.

"Oooh let's have Aliens!"
"Oooh let's give Indy a son!"
"Oooh lets have Kingdom somewhere in the title!"

It really ing pisses me off.

[Safari Suit]

"Oooh let's give Indy a son!"

Yeah, how dare he make Spielberg explore paternal relationships in one of his films!

[Harmsway]

You see, this is what annoys me. If Speilberg is the director and Lucas is the producer, why does Spielberg let him call the shots on everything.

He doesn't. If you'll go through the history of INDY IV, you'll see that plenty of things were Spielberg's call (I mean, the very reason it took so long for things to fall into place was the constant back-and-forth between the two of them). It is a partnership. Lucas might not be calling the shots on-set, but in development, he's equal with Spielberg. Maybe a little more so, given that Spielberg usually defers to Lucas to put the story together. Let's not forget that RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK was, from a narrative standpoint, Lucas' baby.

"Oooh let's have Aliens!"

In essence, I still think this was a smart idea (or at least the broader concept of drawing on the tradition of 1950s B-movie creature flicks was). Mishandled, but smart.

I daresay I wish the Indiana Jones franchise had panned out thusly:

THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS (1993)
THE KINGDOM OF THE GODS (2004)

That way, we'd have had two adventures... one a big sci-fi spectacular, full of flying saucers and government paranoia, the other a more "traditional" Indy flick with a mystical relic, set in the dark and eerie jungles of South America.

"Oooh let's give Indy a son!"

That was more Spielberg's call than it was Lucas', I believe. Or at least the switch from a daughter to son was entirely Spielberg's call.

[JimmyBond]

I think it would have been more interesting if Indy had a daughter. The father/son dynamic was played out in Crusade.

[Harmsway]

I think it would have been more interesting if Indy had a daughter. The father/son dynamic was played out in Crusade.

Spielberg felt it was too much like THE LOST WORLD: JURASSIC PARK if Indy had a daughter.