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[Judo chop]

I'm aware that a lot of folks never played it

Played it? I’ve never heard of it.

Until now, of course.

And, going somewhat OT, there's a new Indy video game coming out called INDIANA JONES AND THE STAFF OF KINGS, involving the staff of Moses as its key relic. Lucas was apparently involved in the story development.

Hey, this is the Indiana Jones thread. Not OT at all.

And I LOVE that relic! That’s the kind of direction they should have gone in the latest movie. Something that has a known basis in reality (ie. not the Shankara stones), but is rarely considered (ie. not the Grail or the Aliens) and gives Jones a chance to dive in and investigate it. It’s the same as the Ark in that respect. Even regular Sunday School attendees barely had knowledge of the Ark in terms of it being used as a weapon. Raiders brought that to light. Everybody knows Moses, but his staff is pretty obscure in terms of being a mystical device despite being documented in the Bible as being able to do a trick or two.

And I’d have to let it sink in for a bit, but my gut reaction is to say that THE STAFF OF KINGS blows all the other titles out of the water. Or maybe it just sits well because it’s a little generic and would eventually bore me after time.

Crap! I want to find out what the staff does! (See… it’s already a more interesting movie than KOTCS.)

[Harmsway]

I'm aware that a lot of folks never played it

Played it? I’ve never heard of it.

Until now, of course.

Well, it's pretty old. But it's awesome. I recommend it if you can get a copy.

And I LOVE that relic! That’s the kind of direction they should have gone in the latest movie. Something that has a known basis in reality (ie. not the Shankara stones), but is rarely considered (ie. not the Grail or the Aliens) and gives Jones a chance to dive in and investigate it. It’s the same as the Ark in that respect. Even regular Sunday School attendees barely had knowledge of the Ark in terms of it being used as a weapon. Raiders brought that to light. Everybody knows Moses, but his staff is pretty obscure in terms of being a mystical device despite being documented in the Bible as being able to do a trick or two.

Well, my one issue with it is that it's another Moses relic. Just like the Ark of the Covenant. If they were to go with another Biblical item for another film, this wasn't the way for them to do it. Works really well for a game, though.

Crap! I want to find out what the staff does! (See… it’s already a more interesting movie than KOTCS.)

From what we can tell, Moses-y things. All the TEN COMMANDMENTS stuff like plagues and parting the seas, etc (indeed, production art for the game shows Indy using it to part waters).

[Gobi-1]

I'd personally like to see Indy search for King's Arthur's sword Excalibur.

Indiana Jones and the Shores of Avalon

It's an idea I've been kicking around.

[Agent 76]

I'd personally like to see Indy search for King's Arthur's sword Excalibur.

Indiana Jones and the Shores of Avalon

It's an idea I've been kicking around.

Hey, that's actually a cool idea, you know.
It would be great to see it on screen, kind of a mix between Raiders and Last Crusade.

clearly obvious, but still a cool title: Indiana Jones and the Legend of Excalibur

[Judo chop]

And I LOVE that relic! That’s the kind of direction they should have gone in the latest movie. Something that has a known basis in reality (ie. not the Shankara stones), but is rarely considered (ie. not the Grail or the Aliens) and gives Jones a chance to dive in and investigate it. It’s the same as the Ark in that respect. Even regular Sunday School attendees barely had knowledge of the Ark in terms of it being used as a weapon. Raiders brought that to light. Everybody knows Moses, but his staff is pretty obscure in terms of being a mystical device despite being documented in the Bible as being able to do a trick or two.

Well, my one issue with it is that it's another Moses relic. Just like the Ark of the Covenant. If they were to go with another Biblical item for another film, this wasn't the way for them to do it. Works really well for a game, though.

My thought there was that despite having departed from the Old Testament theme, they ended up making a film in KINGDOM that was mostly a rehash of old ideas (mixed with no ideas) anyway. Waterfalls, car chase, son of Indy, Marion’s return, etc…

If Spielberg had taken the reigns with conviction and had been determined to make a true sequel to Raiders in spirit, then why not do it in story as well? I’d be fine if my Indy collection consisted only the bookend films, the first being Indy’s first great adventure, and the final as Indy’s final great adventure, both quality films sharing a common directorial flavor and a common theme of the search for powerful Mosesian artifacts.

Yes sir. That would work well for me.

[Harmsway]

If Spielberg had taken the reigns with conviction and had been determined to make a true sequel to Raiders in spirit, then why not do it in story as well? I’d be fine if my Indy collection consisted only the bookend films, the first being Indy’s first great adventure, and the final as Indy’s final great adventure, both quality films sharing a common directorial flavor and a common theme of the search for powerful Mosesian artifacts.

My only worry is that instead of coming across as a refreeshing, complimentary film, it would come across as a rehash. And given that we already had one of those in LAST CRUSADE, it would be almost doubly redundant. I was very much hoping for KINGDOM to do something new. But as it stands, it didn't really succeed at doing something new or at capturing the flair of RAIDERS.

In truth, I think Frank Darabont's INDIANA JONES AND THE CITY OF THE GODS, while pretty darn flawed and in a serious need of a really good rewrite, did accomplish something new while taking the series full circle, a balance that KINGDOM never really managed.

If a fifth materializes, I think Lucas and Spielberg are likely to respond to fan complaints (they tend to do so), so I'll be interested to see how that influences the final film. Lucas has already backed off the Shia thing. Lucas also indicated that contrary to Spielberg's ambivalence about INDY IV, he now has some genuine interest in a fifth having gotten the "taste" for Indy back.

I'd personally like to see Indy search for King's Arthur's sword Excalibur.

Indiana Jones and the Shores of Avalon

It's an idea I've been kicking around.

It's been around for a while. My two concerns are thus:

1. We saw the Arthurian thing done big time with LAST CRUSADE.
2. The locations involved in the Excalibur story aren't particularly exciting.

What we'd need is something that presented the Excalibur story in a new way. There are Medieval legends that claimed it was the sword held by the angel that guarded the garden of Eden. Maybe that would be a route to go with it.

Personally, I'd like to see a relic from a religious system/mythology Indy hasn't really touched yet. Like the Tablets of Destinies from Mesopotamian mythology. Or something.

[Judo chop]

My only worry is that instead of coming across as a refreeshing, complimentary film, it would come across as a rehash. And given that we already had one of those in LAST CRUSADE, it would be almost doubly redundant. I was very much hoping for KINGDOM to do something new. But as it stands, it didn't really succeed at doing something new or at capturing the flair of RAIDERS.

You could be right, and my point was really that a quality rehash with the staff is better than the rehash with Aliens that we got. But I also think the Grail idea fails a little not because it’s a rehash of Raiders, but because it’s a rehash of so many things. The Grail is just such an obvious relic, where Moses’ staff is not. And to be honest, how many Raiders lovers consciously associate the Ark with Moses? Raiders basically ignored the commandment tablets aspect of it and went straight for the “trrransmitter… for tawhking… to Gohd” aspect. Of course I know better, but I think there’s enough separation between Ark as a Transmitter and/or Weapon > 2 Tablets > Moses to make the two adventures feel distinct to most folks.

Lucas also indicated that contrary to Spielberg's ambivalence about INDY IV, he now has some genuine interest in a fifth having gotten the "taste" for Indy back.

Who does the ‘he’ refer to? Lucas or Spielberg? Who has the taste for Indy back?
I trust it’s Spielberg, otherwise… who really cares.

[Harmsway]

You could be right, and my point was really that a quality rehash with the staff is better than the rehash with Aliens that we got.

But you've thrown the word "quality" in there. Sure, anything "quality" would be better than KINGDOM.

But would a "quality" rehash with the staff be better than a "quality" rehash with the crystal skulls? Or for that matter, would a mediocre rehash with the staff be any better than the mediocre rehash with the skulls? I don't really see it, especially in the former scenario. And regarding the latter, just because there's even less novelty within the Jones franchise, I think a staff-featuring entry loses that battle.

And to be honest, how many Raiders lovers consciously associate the Ark with Moses? Raiders basically ignored the commandment tablets aspect of it and went straight for the “trrransmitter… for tawhking… to Gohd” aspect. Of course I know better, but I think there’s enough separation between Ark as a Transmitter and/or Weapon > 2 Tablets > Moses to make the two adventures feel distinct to most folks.

Sure, but the Moses story is definitely thrown in there in Jones' lecture, and then you have the whole "ten commandments are now dust" thing towards the end. It's not focused on, but it's certainly there and is brought up a few times throughout.

But even more importantly they're still both Judeo-Christian. And you get a very similar vibe on that front, and that's my major hurdle with it. It's not even like going after Noah's ark or the Garden of Eden, where you can get a really different story angle.

Lucas also indicated that contrary to Spielberg's ambivalence about INDY IV, he now has some genuine interest in a fifth having gotten the "taste" for Indy back.

Who does the ‘he’ refer to? Lucas or Spielberg? Who has the taste for Indy back?
I trust it’s Spielberg, otherwise… who really cares.

Spielberg, naturally.

[Judo chop]

But you've thrown the word "quality" in there. Sure, anything "quality" would be better than KINGDOM.

Yes. I thought it was a brilliant move, actually. I can win any argument by stating that my quality idea is better than your bad idea. You don't like?

But would a "quality" rehash with the staff be better than a "quality" rehash with the crystal skulls?

Back to seriousness... yes. I do. I think the Grail and the Aliens are overworked, very uncreative ideas. All other things being equal, the Staff of Moses is a better idea than either. I think there are two things which make Raiders so phenomenal: excellent filmmaking and an excellent idea. I think Spielberg needs a fire lit under him to get #1, and I think the Staff meets #2.

Or for that matter, would a mediocre rehash with the staff be any better than the mediocre rehash with the skulls?

I couldn't care less. We need both parts of the formula like a plane needs both wings. Without one of them, you've got a hunk of metal.

But even more importantly they're still both Judeo-Christian. And you get a very similar vibe on that front, and that's my major hurdle with it. It's not even like going after Noah's ark or the Garden of Eden, where you can get a really different story angle.

Yes, a similar vibe. Like my ROCKY BALBOA to my ROCKY. A perfect ending to a perfect start. That is what I would like. Or, really, one possibility that I would like. I also wouldn't mind something completely unbiblical, as long as it walks that fine line between historical reality and magical/mystical, but I think that's harder to do. The Ark (Noah's) seems to lack the magic. Garden of Eden is interesting, but kind of intangible, no? Doesn't Indy need to be able to 'grab' the relic?

[Harmsway]

I think the Grail and the Aliens are overworked, very uncreative ideas.

The former is predictable, but the aliens, despite being popular outside of the Indy genre, have their own novelty in the Indy franchise. It's all in the handling. CITY OF THE GODS did it just right. I love the ending of that screenplay so much, with the building dread leading to a very horror-themed finale. It's very Lovecraftian, which is how I was hoping KINGDOM would play (but it didn't).

The staff of Moses, well... it's a very predictable place for Indiana Jones to go. It's no wonder that it's been picked for Indiana Jones fan fiction all over the place, and even made it into an extended universe novel called INDIANA JONES AND THE SECRET OF THE SPHINX. It might have novelty to you, but it has very little for me.

Yes, a similar vibe. Like my ROCKY BALBOA to my ROCKY. A perfect ending to a perfect start.

Since I don't think ROCKY BALBOA is a particularly exciting or interesting film (merely a safe, predictable nostalgia trip), it's not at all how I'd like the Indy franchise to go out. I want some genuine daring.

Doesn't Indy need to be able to 'grab' the relic?

Only if you're trying to adhere to a strict formula.

[Judo chop]

I think the Grail and the Aliens are overworked, very uncreative ideas.

The former is predictable, but the aliens, despite being popular outside of the Indy genre, have their own novelty in the Indy franchise. It's all in the handling. CITY OF THE GODS did it just right. I love the ending of that screenplay so much, with the building dread leading to a very horror-themed finale. It's very Lovecraftian, which is how I was hoping KINGDOM would play (but it didn't).

Fair enough. Never read that script, so I wouldn't know. I've no doubt that KOTCS could have been done better (couldn't have been much worse), but I'm still not a fan of the aliens. Novel within Indy maybe, but so would many things. As I've said, the Ark at the time was novel to everyone, and I believe that's one of the keys to Raiders' success.

The staff of Moses, well... it's a very predictable place for Indiana Jones to go. It's no wonder that it's been picked for Indiana Jones fan fiction all over the place, and even made it into an extended universe novel called INDIANA JONES AND THE SECRET OF THE SPHINX. It might have novelty to you, but it has very little for me.

There's it is. When you mentioned it, it was the first I'd heard or thought of it and I loved the idea and I still do. It IS woven of the same cloth as the Ark and that's what makes it brilliant in my book, a rehash in yours. I hope we find out someday who's right.

[Harmsway]

Never read that script, so I wouldn't know.

You should. It's fun, if only to see what could have been. It's easy to see why Spielberg was genuinely excited about the project at that time. You should be able to right-click download from this link.

It IS woven of the same cloth as the Ark and that's what makes it brilliant in my book, a rehash in yours.

Well, it's not only woven of the same cloth as the Ark... it's part of the exact same story (the Biblical story has the staff being put inside the Ark of the Covenant), covers the same geographical area, is tied to the same religion and deity... I mean, what do you find different enough about it to make it stand out? (Nevermind that the whole "plagues of Egypt" thing, which is the staff's key gimmick, was done in THE MUMMY to big effect.)

And as much as I understand the bookend idea ala ROCKY BALBOA, doesn't some part of you want to see INDY IV be a CASINO ROYALE? Something exciting, original, and inventive that hearkens back to the early days of the franchise while doing something that the franchise never did before?

Maybe part of our difference stems from what we think Indiana Jones should be. I get the impression that you really only liked RAIDERS to any real degree and would prefer all the Indiana Jones films to be in precisely that mold. Am I correct? Me... I'd like Dr. Jones to keep with the RAIDERS tone, which was perfect, but to sample all sorts of different kinds of things. I want a varied franchise. RAIDERS did RAIDERS as well as it could be... everything else would just fail to measure up. The only way to make a sequel that's at all worthwhile is to do something different, but do it well.

I hope we find out someday who's right.

How would that even happen?

[Judo chop]

Maybe part of our difference stems from what we think Indiana Jones should be. I get the impression that you really only liked RAIDERS to any real degree and would prefer all the Indiana Jones films to be in precisely that mold. Am I correct? Me... I'd like Dr. Jones to keep with the RAIDERS tone, which was perfect, but to sample all sorts of different kinds of things. I want a varied franchise. RAIDERS did RAIDERS as well as it could be... everything else would just fail to measure up. The only way to make a sequel that's at all worthwhile is to do something different, but do it well.

Random thoughts, b/c I'm too tired to make them cohesive.

1) You are very correct about one thing there: Raiders is the holy grail of adventure movies for me. Perfection, if such a thing exists. Part of me feels like they've tried other things and failed, so maybe going back to the source is the smartest bet. That could easily be a panic reaction though.

2) I don't think the Staff idea would feel that tied to the Ark. Obviously from a historical standpoint both are Moses relics, but like I said, I don't think the Ark feels tied to Moses at all, and I don't think they'd have to dwell on Moses with the staff, so the real connection between the two relics is left basically unsaid. I think the variance is already there. But your point about the geographical region is a good one. They would need to change that up somehow. The Ark was lost in Tanis (sp?),but the Staff would need a different location.

3) I'm not sure that a series has to depart to totally new territories to be worthwhile. I think you and I both feel that Bond was totally worthwhile, at the very least, for the first four films. Did they depart that drastically? Or at all? Maybe Goldfinger did, and I think we might agree that where that film did depart was a mistake.

Having said that, I'm not against other ideas, biblical or non-biblical. I'm not dead set on the Staff. (Ha! As if Lucas is reading this taking notes. ) I just think it could be done very well, and be very worthwhile. It meets the relic criteria which I AM dead set upon: It has to have some recognizable basis in human history, and yet be fresh to the general public. In this, the Ark was perfect. And so the Staff would be as well (I think, at least). The Stones were not recognizable as part of our history, the Grail was not fresh, and I think the aliens broke both rules.

I hope we find out someday who's right.

How would that even happen?

Not literally. That was just my usual 'wink wink' ending tag that I use to the point of exhaustion around here for the sake of hoping to look clever. Please ignore.

[Harmsway]

1) You are very correct about one thing there: Raiders is the holy grail of adventure movies for me. Perfection, if such a thing exists. Part of me feels like they've tried other things and failed, so maybe going back to the source is the smartest bet. That could easily be a panic reaction though.

Going back to RAIDERS is an absolute must, but I don't think they need do that through the MacGuffin. I think we need a RAIDERS-style adventure in terms of tone, devoid of the heavy comedy that has plagued TEMPLE, CRUSADE, and KINGDOM.

But your point about the geographical region is a good one. They would need to change that up somehow. The Ark was lost in Tanis (sp?),but the Staff would need a different location.

Yeah, I mean, we've had RAIDERS and CRUSADE both with a strong presence in the Middle East. There's a lot of interesting geographical areas Indy hasn't even touched on, and it's hard to conceive of a way the staff could have gotten out of those areas entirely.

I want to see something in snow at some point, like the mountains of Tibet or Romania. We also haven't spent time in the Mediterranean, like in Greece, or in the bulk of the African continent. I do think it would be a suitably epic adventure for a send-off for Jones to go searching for Eden, the start of it all.

[Judo chop]

a RAIDERS-style adventure in terms of tone, devoid of the heavy comedy that has plagued TEMPLE, CRUSADE, and KINGDOM.

in the bulk of the African continent.

searching for Eden, the start of it all.

Yes. Actually, in my eyes TEMPLE kept pretty true to the tone of RAIDERS and fails mostly in terms of story and cast. Between the stones, and Mola and Indy's friends, the whole thing amounted to a big "who cares?".

Yes.

Sure. Though I'm not at all sure what happens when, or if, he finds the garden. That would have to be handled intelligently and respectfully. Such a thing is probably more explainable as a state of being than a geographical location, so they'd have their work cut out for them trying to not make it a total eye-rolling snort fest. Even with the Grail, a tangible thing, I think they pushed the limits a little too far. That being said, the leading up to the Garden could be as suspenseful a journey as the Ark was, if not more suspenseful.

[Harmsway]

Yes. Actually, in my eyes TEMPLE kept pretty true to the tone of RAIDERS and fails mostly in terms of story and cast.

I don't know... TEMPLE OF DOOM, as much as I like it, is hugely slapstick. It pervades almost every scene. It's even more slapsticky than CRUSADE (although is certainly darker than CRUSADE).

RAIDERS had humor, but it wasn't really slapstick.

That being said, the leading up to the Garden could be as suspenseful a journey as the Ark was, if not more suspenseful.

Why do you say that? I think Eden has the awe potential, but not really fear.

But if you want to know what I really want, I want some kind of malevolent relic with malevolent forces behind it. Something scary, with a consistently suspenseful edge. I want my H. P. Lovecraft kind of "beware of the unknown, because you might not like what you find" kind of thing. A kind of Indiana Jones meets AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS or CALL OF CTHULHU.

'Cause at its core, I think that's what RAIDERS had that helped make the whole story so compelling. This "there are forces out there beyond us that are things we shouldn't mess with" idea. And I really want to see a return to that.

[Judo chop]

Yes. Actually, in my eyes TEMPLE kept pretty true to the tone of RAIDERS and fails mostly in terms of story and cast.

I don't know... TEMPLE OF DOOM, as much as I like it, is hugely slapstick. It pervades almost every scene. It's even more slapsticky than CRUSADE (although is certainly darker than CRUSADE).

RAIDERS had humor, but it wasn't really slapstick.

No, surely not. RAIDERS humor is really one of the key elements they'd need to strive for. Back to another Bond parallel, the humor is a big part of what makes those first four Connery films so timeless, and what makes Casino Royale a truly worthy edition to the series. It's intelligent humor in RAIDERS, through and through, though certainly no less funny than watching that nitwit in TEMPLE run around the campsite, screaming at every jungle beast she finds waiting for her.

You're right that the comedy takes a dip in TEMPLE. Sometimes it holds its own and sometimes it nosedives. I guess I feel like Spielberg still had a little Indy mojo left over from RAIDERS when he did TEMPLE and that if he had a real story in hand we'd have something comparable to RAIDERS. Maybe it's the darkness you're talking about.

That being said, the leading up to the Garden could be as suspenseful a journey as the Ark was, if not more suspenseful.

Why do you say that? I think Eden has the awe potential, but not really fear.

But if you want to know what I really want, I want some kind of malevolent relic with malevolent forces behind it. Something scary, with a consistently suspenseful edge. I want my H. P. Lovecraft kind of "beware of the unknown, because you might not like what you find" kind of thing. A kind of Indiana Jones meets AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS or CALL OF CTHULHU.

'Cause at its core, I think that's what RAIDERS had that helped make the whole story so compelling. This "there are forces out there beyond us that are things we shouldn't mess with" idea. And I really want to see a return to that.

Now here I'm not sure if I agree. The Garden of Eden? Not scary? I suppose that depends on how far you consider its reality. If the Garden of Eden is merely a nice, lush and lovely place where men and women can be naked without shame (not quite literally what that Biblical verse means) and animals don't attack each other and there is no disease or death (being careful not to wander too close to the enternal life giving powers of the Grail) and there's one suspicious looking tree with some glowing fruit, then I quite agree. That is a lame goal for Indiana Jones. Basically, Indiana Jones and the Best Botanical Garden Ever.

But, if the Garden of Eden is something that is not supposed to be found (a line used by Marcus about the Ark, I realize). I don't know... I think I'd be scared to venture on if I stumbled upon it. What happens when a fallible, fallen creature tries to enter a place of utter creative perfection? What happens when a human willingly returns to the place that God exiled him from? That definitely has a "things we shouldn't mess with" vibe for me. And so in that we agree. This is where I see the Garden idea going, but again... what exactly are the consequences, and what does this Garden look like on screen? I have a hard time imagining it being done well. The concept is, by definition, unattainable to the human mind, and so any film representation I think is just going to be...

Unless of course, they don't show the Garden. They only show what happens to a man/woman who had dared to venture within, leaving the horrifying specifics of the consequences up to the viewer.

[Harmsway]

That being said, the leading up to the Garden could be as suspenseful a journey as the Ark was, if not more suspenseful.

Why do you say that? I think Eden has the awe potential, but not really fear.

But if you want to know what I really want, I want some kind of malevolent relic with malevolent forces behind it. Something scary, with a consistently suspenseful edge. I want my H. P. Lovecraft kind of "beware of the unknown, because you might not like what you find" kind of thing. A kind of Indiana Jones meets AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS or CALL OF CTHULHU.

'Cause at its core, I think that's what RAIDERS had that helped make the whole story so compelling. This "there are forces out there beyond us that are things we shouldn't mess with" idea. And I really want to see a return to that.

Now here I'm not sure if I agree. The Garden of Eden? Not scary? I suppose that depends on how far you consider its reality. If the Garden of Eden is merely a nice, lush and lovely place where men and women can be naked without shame (not quite literally what that Biblical verse means) and animals don't attack each other and there is no disease or death (being careful not to wander too close to the enternal life giving powers of the Grail) and there's one suspicious looking tree with some glowing fruit, then I quite agree. That is a lame goal for Indiana Jones. Basically, Indiana Jones and the Best Botanical Garden Ever.

Quite, and I fear any INDIANA JONES AND THE GARDEN OF LIFE story would wander there (intriguingly, the INDIANA JONES AND THE MONKEY KING script that was rejected for film #3 has a garden finale that's pretty close to what we're talking about, but is instead situated in Chinese mythology).

But, if the Garden of Eden is something that is not supposed to be found (a line used by Marcus about the Ark, I realize). I don't know... I think I'd be scared to venture on if I stumbled upon it. What happens when a fallible, fallen creature tries to enter a place of utter creative perfection? What happens when a human willingly returns to the place that God exiled him from? That definitely has a "things we shouldn't mess with" vibe for me. And so in that we agree.

Well, sure, that bit is scary. But if somebody dies as soon as they enter... what can you really do with that? Indy gets there, sees it... the bad guy walks in, dies via the cosmic bouncer angel that God set up there, and Indy just says, "Oh well. Guess we can't go in." and wanders off?

Maybe it might be interesting to play with the more Satanic aspects of the Judeo-Christian faith. Ala the Seal of Solomon/Key of Solomon, which ties into Solomon's legendary ability to bind demons and force them to do his will.

[Judo chop]

But, if the Garden of Eden is something that is not supposed to be found (a line used by Marcus about the Ark, I realize). I don't know... I think I'd be scared to venture on if I stumbled upon it. What happens when a fallible, fallen creature tries to enter a place of utter creative perfection? What happens when a human willingly returns to the place that God exiled him from? That definitely has a "things we shouldn't mess with" vibe for me. And so in that we agree.

Well, sure, that bit is scary. But if somebody dies as soon as they enter... what can you really do with that? Indy gets there, sees it... the bad guy walks in, dies via the cosmic bouncer angel that God set up there, and Indy just says, "Oh well. Guess we can't go in." and wanders off?

Right. That's my problem with it too. The suspense is all in the lead-up... "how the hell heaven are they going to show us the Garden of Eden???!" and then you get there and they don't show it. Because they can't. ACtually, I was thinking the bad guy doesn't necessarily die, but instead sees the garden, leaves and is driven mad, but that's really not any better. And the whole thing feels like it's leading to the same villain with the same goal from CRUSADE; a man who wants eternal life and/or paradise on earth, but gets a rude shock when he finds that he can't have it.

Maybe it might be interesting to play with the more Satanic aspects of the Judeo-Christian faith. Ala the Seal of Solomon/Key of Solomon, which ties into Solomon's legendary ability to bind demons and force them to do his will.

Is it just me, or are you also getting the feeling that this conversation is turning into one where you just keep feeding me ideas?

That is also interesting. Perhaps it falls a little short of the recognizable in human history criteria, but it certainly opens up some cool possibilities. Obviously not as awesome as the Garden, but more like the Staff in that there would be some large government and/or cult parties interested in it as well. I would go with "KEY" since the "SEAL" immediately reminded me of "don't cross the seal!" in CRUSADE.

What was your thought about the Ark del Noah? Were you serious about that as an idea? I really, REALLY can't imagine how that would be anything but mundane archeology. (Not that it wouldn't be a 'wow' moment in our world, but for Indy... it lacks the punch.)

[Harmsway]

Is it just me, or are you also getting the feeling that this conversation is turning into one where you just keep feeding me ideas?

It is, but that's fine by me.

That is also interesting. Perhaps it falls a little short of the recognizable in human history criteria, but it certainly opens up some cool possibilities.

How do you define "recognizable in human history"?

Obviously not as awesome as the Garden, but more like the Staff in that there would be some large government and/or cult parties interested in it as well. I would go with "KEY" since the "SEAL" immediately reminded me of "don't cross the seal!" in CRUSADE.

Well, just to clarify, the Seal of Solomon is a ring that Solomon used to control demons, and the Key of Solomon is a book Solomon wrote discussing how you control the demonic forces.

What was your thought about the Ark del Noah? Were you serious about that as an idea?

It's been done. INDIANA JONES AND THE GENESIS DELUGE, an Indy novel, and the infamous INDIANA JONES AND THE SONS OF DARKNESS. Both gave it a different spin. In the former, Jones actually meets Noah, and in the latter, the Ark houses the skull of the "Son of Darkness" that was hidden there, against Noah's wishes.

The Tower of Babel could be nifty. It was sorta done in INDIANA JONES AND THE INFERNAL MACHINE, but not from any Biblical avenue (more focusing on the Babylonian elements), so maybe something could be spun out of that.

[Judo chop]

Is it just me, or are you also getting the feeling that this conversation is turning into one where you just keep feeding me ideas?

It is, but that's fine by me.

Good. At least we're continuing to agree.

That is also interesting. Perhaps it falls a little short of the recognizable in human history criteria, but it certainly opens up some cool possibilities.

How do you define "recognizable in human history"?

The criteria grew out of what I think is a big failure of TEMPLE - The Shankara Stones. Nobody knows what they are or what they do. (And even when we find out it's all a little underwhelming since they're basically magical fertilizer.)

The average human needs to be able to recognize the artifact. Everybody knows Moses and the Ten Commandments to some extent, and with one helpful moment of dialogue from RAIDERS, they are educated as to what the Ark of the Covenant is as well. Solomon - another big name from the bible and human history, though slightly more obscure it's still very workable. Noah's Ark, the Garden of Eden... people know these things, and they haven't been beaten to death in other stories or film. Arthurian legend + the Last Supper, also immediately recognizable, but too tired. Crystal Skulls, not recognizable, not human, and aliens not fresh. My least favorite of Indy's 'relics' so far.

Well, just to clarify, the Seal of Solomon is a ring that Solomon used to control demons, and the Key of Solomon is a book Solomon wrote discussing how you control the demonic forces.

I see. Can I have just one called THE RING OF SOLOMON, then? Eh... I guess SEAL OF SOLOMON isn't so bad anyway.

In the former, Jones actually meets Noah, and in the latter, the Ark houses the skull of the "Son of Darkness" that was hidden there, against Noah's wishes.

Meets Noah? NO. No more 'meeting' ancient eternal human personalities.

The Tower of Babel could be nifty. It was sorta done in INDIANA JONES AND THE INFERNAL MACHINE, but not from any Biblical avenue (more focusing on the Babylonian elements), so maybe something could be spun out of that.

Good grief. How many Jones adventures are out there?! I really don't get into reading all of these fiction novels.

Tower of Babel. I'll tell you what... the name alone is probably cool enough to pull it off. As a Sunday School attendee, I recognize it, though many may not. If it's not taken from a Biblical avenue though, then what would give it any supernatural qualities? It can't just be a tower. It's got to hold some dark secrets. Are you thinking they just assign some random forces to it, or tie in other Bablyonian dieties?

[Bondian]

Indiana Jones 5?

[Judo chop]

edited.

[Harmsway]

Crystal Skulls, not recognizable, not human, and aliens not fresh. My least favorite of Indy's 'relics' so far.

Well, I suppose. There's also the whole Lost City of Gold/conquistador thing going on in there. It's all a bit of a confused mess, storywise.

It worked differently in CITY OF THE GODS, where the skull (only one of 'em) wasn't an alien head, and was merely a relic from the forgotten kingdom in the jungles resembling the crystal skulls currently in museums. It was more of a secondary thing, like the headpiece to the staff of Ra, and wasn't something powerful or being sought after in its own right.

The Tower of Babel could be nifty. It was sorta done in INDIANA JONES AND THE INFERNAL MACHINE, but not from any Biblical avenue (more focusing on the Babylonian elements), so maybe something could be spun out of that.

Good grief. How many Jones adventures are out there?! I really don't get into reading all of these fiction novels.

I haven't read most of 'em, and the ones I have read were woefully mediocre. But INFERNAL MACHINE is a video game, released for PC and N64 a number of years back.

Tower of Babel. I'll tell you what... the name alone is probably cool enough to pull it off. As a Sunday School attendee, I recognize it, though many may not. If it's not taken from a Biblical avenue though, then what would give it any supernatural qualities? It can't just be a tower. It's got to hold some dark secrets. Are you thinking they just assign some random forces to it, or tie in other Bablyonian dieties?

No, I'm thinking we go after the Biblical avenue, but draw on some of the extra-Biblical accounts like the Midrash accounts and Josephus. In these, it's implicitly stated that the Tower was built as an affront against God - indeed, to make war with him. Perhaps its original makers fashioned a device with knowledge beyond our own, a device so insidious and dark that it was destroyed? Something along those lines. There's a lot of possibilities.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

Details about Kingdom of the Crystal Skull's DVD and Blu-Ray release have been announced:

http://www.theraider...ndy4.php?id=895

Kind of bummed about the lack of deleted scenes. But at least the DVD version got the better packaging.

[Judo chop]

Crystal Skulls, not recognizable, not human, and aliens not fresh. My least favorite of Indy's 'relics' so far.

Well, I suppose. There's also the whole Lost City of Gold/conquistador thing going on in there. It's all a bit of a confused mess, storywise.

Indeed. I don’t feel like they ever even acknowledged the City of Gold angle in KOTCS. It seemed like Family Jones… (can we stop for moment of silence as we witness the death of my hero )… just appeared there and it’s, “well, what do you know... the aliens decided to park on an Aztec pyramid. Ain’t that a hoot.”

Jeez louise, the more I think back on that film, the more I wish I would just stop doing that.

No, I'm thinking we go after the Biblical avenue, but draw on some of the extra-Biblical accounts like the Midrash accounts and Josephus. In these, it's implicitly stated that the Tower was built as an affront against God - indeed, to make war with him. Perhaps its original makers fashioned a device with knowledge beyond our own, a device so insidious and dark that it was destroyed? Something along those lines. There's a lot of possibilities.

Yeah, I just Wiki’d it and even there, there are countless angles on basically the same theme. As for the ‘device’, my mind immediately went to the one account from my childhood memory, that being the bow Nimrod used to fire arrows at God. (I can see God not thinking too fondly of that particular artifact surfacing again.)

There are quite a few takes on the The Tower itself too. Some basic towers, some cities like Gondor, some just massive sprawling networks of buildings and roads. I think I’d want to keep the basic ‘spiral’ design, intended to take a single man to the highest point possible. The whole structure pointing to a singular point has a chilling “don’t go there” vibe. But that could easily be paired with one of the other designs too. I can see a huge metropolis mount at the center of a crumbling city, with the spiral tower at the very center poking up beyond the cloud cover.

I like it. More than the Garden, more than the Ark, more than the Staff. Let’s do it. How can I help? Should I take out George?

[DamnCoffee]

Details about Kingdom of the Crystal Skull's DVD and Blu-Ray release have been announced:

http://www.theraider...ndy4.php?id=895

Kind of bummed about the lack of deleted scenes. But at least the DVD version got the better packaging.

Yes, just seen this over at DVD active. Very nice artwork indeed. Shame about the movie itself.

[Harmsway]

I like it. More than the Garden, more than the Ark, more than the Staff. Let’s do it. How can I help? Should I take out George?

Convince Spielberg and Lucas to hand over the reins of the franchise to me, wholesale. I'll deliver.

Indeed. I don’t feel like they ever even acknowledged the City of Gold angle in KOTCS.

They mention it a few times, but it's really background. The alien thing takes focus. I think it would be more interesting if it were the other way around... I like the alien angle, but I wish they'd played up the quest for El Dorado a bit more, so that the alien thing came as a surprise later in the story, rather than the reason for the quest to begin with.

[AngryPolarBear]

Why don't explore the Nordic mythology in Indy 5?

[Harmsway]

Why don't explore the Nordic mythology in Indy 5?

I'm a big fan of Nordic mythology, but I do wonder whether it really carries the oompf that an Indiana Jones cinematic adventure (indeed, in all liklihood the final Indiana Jones adventure) needs.