2519 replies to this topic

[DamnCoffee]

if these films are going to continue, they need to go to new places.

I'm all for this, but did it need to include Aliens, really. Let me rephrase that, did they have to include aliens as much as they did. We didn't need to see Jesus Christ to believe in the ark or the grail did we? So why show the aliens and a bloody spaceship!

[Andrew]

if these films are going to continue, they need to go to new places.

I'm all for this, but did it need to include Aliens, really. Let me rephrase that, did they have to include aliens as much as they did. We didn't need to see Jesus Christ to believe in the ark or the grail did we? So why show the aliens and a bloody spaceship!

That was the least of the film's problems.

[[dark]]

I'm all for this, but did it need to include Aliens, really. Let me rephrase that, did they have to include aliens as much as they did. We didn't need to see Jesus Christ to believe in the ark or the grail did we? So why show the aliens and a bloody spaceship!

I had no problem with the concept. In fact, I think it's rather neat.

The explicitness of the subject matter is the real issue, for me.

[Harmsway]

if these films are going to continue, they need to go to new places.

I'm all for this, but did it need to include Aliens, really. Let me rephrase that, did they have to include aliens as much as they did. We didn't need to see Jesus Christ to believe in the ark or the grail did we? So why show the aliens and a bloody spaceship!

The alien story was the one thing that was at all interesting and distinctive about KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL, and even that was watered down to the point where it lost much of the excitement of the original concept. Aliens can be mighty intriguing, but they weren't in KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL.

[zencat]

I just read The Complete Making of Indiana Jones book. Very good (but not as good as the Star Wars one). One thing I found revealing was the 18-year-gap was all about the aliens. Lucas, from the start, wanted Indy IV to be about aliens. Spielberg and Ford didn't like the idea. Lucas dug in and said aliens or nothing. So, for a long time, it was nothing. The crystal skulls were finally a way into an alien story that Spielberg and Ford could stomach (Lucas' original idea had Indy saving/protecting a living alien). The crystal skulls idea actually came from an unproduced episode of Young Indiana Jones.

Also revealing was how much a struggle they had over the title. Spielberg liked using Crystal Skull...Lucas insisted on having the word Kingdom in there. He didn't care what the title was, he just needed the word "Kingdom". Hence, the unwieldy title.

[Safari Suit]

He's a bit of an odd one, isn't he?

[DamnCoffee]

Why does Lucas seem to call all of the shots, afterall it is a Steven Speilberg film.

[zencat]

Why does Lucas seem to call all of the shots, afterall it is a Steven Speilberg film.

Because he is the producer. Indy is his property.

[Harmsway]

Why does Lucas seem to call all of the shots, afterall it is a Steven Speilberg film.

Because he is the producer. Indy is his property.

Yeah. I mean, Indiana Jones was his idea, and he's always been the primary story developer for these films.

If you want to see what Lucas really wanted for INDY IV, read INDIANA JONES AND THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS by Jeb Stuart. It's widely available on the web and makes for an interesting read.

[[dark]]

I just read The Complete Making of Indiana Jones book. Very good (but not as good as the Star Wars one). One thing I found revealing was the 18-year-gap was all about the aliens. Lucas, from the start, wanted Indy IV to be about aliens. Spielberg and Ford didn't like the idea. Lucas dug in and said aliens or nothing. So, for a long time, it was nothing. The crystal skulls were finally a way into an alien story that Spielberg and Ford could stomach (Lucas' original idea had Indy saving/protecting a living alien).

Interesting. Especially given Spielberg's fascination with aliens (E.T., Close Encounters of the Third Kind, War of the Worlds...).

[Loomis]

Lucas' original idea had Indy saving/protecting a living alien

I'd actually have liked that.

I agree with Harmsway that "the alien story was the one thing that was at all interesting and distinctive about KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL, and even that was watered down to the point where it lost much of the excitement of the original concept".

It's true that INDIANA JONES AND THE CRYSTAL SKULL would have been a much, much better, snappier title (and it's my mental shorthand for the movie anyway). But then Lucas is evidently obsessed with creating awful titles (and awful films) - just look at how he had to go and change the title of the first one to INDIANA JONES AND THE RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK. I guess in a few years he'll get bored again and have the brainwave of making it INDIANA JONES AND INDIANA JONES AND THE RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK.

I mean, seriously. And people call Lee Tamahori a butcher.

[zencat]

I just read The Complete Making of Indiana Jones book. Very good (but not as good as the Star Wars one). One thing I found revealing was the 18-year-gap was all about the aliens. Lucas, from the start, wanted Indy IV to be about aliens. Spielberg and Ford didn't like the idea. Lucas dug in and said aliens or nothing. So, for a long time, it was nothing. The crystal skulls were finally a way into an alien story that Spielberg and Ford could stomach (Lucas' original idea had Indy saving/protecting a living alien).

Interesting. Especially given Spielberg's fascination with aliens (E.T., Close Encounters of the Third Kind, War of the Worlds...).

That was one of the reasons he didn't want to do it. He felt he had done the alien thing. Also, he didn't think mixing genres was a good idea. I can actually see both sides of the argument. I liked the alien stuff, but I was well aware that members of the audiences were checking out mentally all around me.

[DamnCoffee]

Why does Lucas seem to call all of the shots, afterall it is a Steven Speilberg film.

Because he is the producer. Indy is his property.

Yeah. I mean, Indiana Jones was his idea, and he's always been the primary story developer for these films.

If you want to see what Lucas really wanted for INDY IV, read INDIANA JONES AND THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS by Jeb Stuart. It's widely available on the web and makes for an interesting read.

Yes. I've read it. It is dreadful. Everytime I see Lucas he comes across as so big headed. I would have thought that he would of come up with a better idea that what we got in 2008. He's had 18 years to work on Indy IV and this is the best he has come up with. Isn't he a history teacher anyway? and he created THAT.

[Royal Dalton]

"Really, with the last one, Steven wasn't that enthusiastic."

No kidding.

[Gobi-1]

Well with The Last Crusade it was reverse with Lucas wanted a movie set in a haunted castle and Spielberg wanting the father and son storyline. They went back and forth for a while then Lucas finally relented and he came around to Spielberg's idea. They'll both cling to an idea until one finally gives in.

You could brake down the Indy films this way:

Raiders of the Lost Ark = Lucas/Spielberg
Temple of Doom = Lucas
The Last Crusade = Spielberg
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull = Lucas

What's interesting is that while Temple of Doom and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull are considered the weakest of the films they're also the ones that really break away from the Indy formula established in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Temple of Doom being a Pulp Horror Thriller and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull being a 1950s Science Fiction B Movie. Even though The Last Crusade is my personal favorite it is at times a retread of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Lucas is willing to take Indy to different places while Spielberg seems to be trying to recapture the magic of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Spielberg at times is almost apologetic for Indiana Jones and doesn't seem like his heart is in it anymore. Lucas appears to be the driving force behind it and while Spielberg may enjoy directing it I can't help but feel like he's simply marking off one more film from his "to do list."

For anyone who has read up on the Indy series Lucas actually spends very little time on the set. He'll develop the film then hand it off to Spielberg to direct. Spielberg will put together his rough cuts and then eventually Lucas does a rough cut and Spielberg decided if he wants to keep any of Lucas' ideas. Ultimately though Spielberg has the final cut.

"Mutt Williams The Monkey King" may have been Lucas' idea but Spielberg was the one who filmed it and left it in. So I think a lot of the criticism that Lucas receives really has more to do with Spielberg.

I always thought it would be interesting if they had taken turns directing the movies.

[freemo]

KOTCS was so utterly pedestrian, especially once it gets to Peru. It felt like a knock-off of an Indiana Jones knock-off. Starts off promising enough, the Hangar 51 and Roswell stuff, the nuclear test town, Indy being questioned by the FBI, etc. I want to see the rest of that movie. We're told he's under FBI investigation, then we never see them again for the rest of the movie*. Instead we just kick into nostalgia mode, with lots of references to previous films, a few lazy clichés of set pieces, and slabs of exposition about some crystal skulls I couldn't care less about.

* - Am I the only one who kept waiting for FBI to pop up again? That scene where Indy and band are at the Soviets camp and Indy and Cate Blanchett are working out the clues together (probably the most interesting bit in the movie, Indy's so excited about the hunt he forgets who he's helping), I was sure the FBI were going appear and "catch" Jones "working with the enemy" or something like that.

Also, I haven't read the script, but I think INDIANA JONES AND THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS is the coolest title they've (n)ever had. I'd go see a movie called INDIANA JONES AND THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS twice. No matter how bad it was.

[DamnCoffee]

Hi, I'm really shocked this hasn't been done before. I am a MASSIVE fan of Indiana Jones. I have been since I was 3 years old. The very first Indy film I saw was TOD, I fell in love with the movies from that point. I love all the movies in their own right, Including KOTCS.

So feel free to discuss....

The Quadrilogy:

Raiders of the Lost Ark
Temple of Doom
The Last Crusade
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

[Mercator]

Raiders and Crusade, frickin A!
Temple sucks
Skulls sucks big time.
like the part he pulls the gun on the dude with the sword and shoots him! LOL! Still cracks me every time!

[sharpshooter]

I'm a fan of the first three films. Raiders is the best, but Crusade is my favourite. Doom is good as well. Skull, well...I'll pretend that doesn't exist.

[Safari Suit]

I've just got Lego Indy for the PS2*, and it's great fun, almost makes up for KOTCS.

*Yeah I'm not planning to buy any new consoles soon, or perhaps ever.

[mrsbonds_ppk]

I've just got Lego Indy for the PS2*, and it's great fun, almost makes up for KOTCS.

*Yeah I'm not planning to buy any new consoles soon, or perhaps ever.

I just played the demo on the PS3 and it was so fun. I can not wait until I can buy it.

********************************************


I have enjoyed all of the films. some more than others, but yeah I rank the Indy films like this...

Raiders of the Lost Ark - It's just the best. I love everything about it.

Temple of Doom - TOD was funny and very entertaining. It did not suck. I don't care what they say. Oh yeah and that scene when Indiana had his shirt off... That was hot .

Last Crusade - I loved Ford and Connery's chemistry, the music, and subject matter. It was my favorite when I was younger. Plus they had a Bond hench woman in Alison Doody and a Bond villain in Julian Glover.

Kingdom of the Crystal Skull - The first part of the film was great then it kinda got tedious, but it was ok. I was just happy to see Indy again. Also, I did like the fact that Indiana and Marion got hitched. That was 'a okay. It's certainly not the worst film ever like some of the whine babies say. That a bit overboard.

I don't hate any of those films. They are a great ride that's full of adventure and I love it.

[Shadow Syndicate]

KOTCS was so utterly pedestrian, especially once it gets to Peru. It felt like a knock-off of an Indiana Jones knock-off. Starts off promising enough, the Hangar 51 and Roswell stuff, the nuclear test town, Indy being questioned by the FBI, etc. I want to see the rest of that movie. We're told he's under FBI investigation, then we never see them again for the rest of the movie*. Instead we just kick into nostalgia mode, with lots of references to previous films, a few lazy clichés of set pieces, and slabs of exposition about some crystal skulls I couldn't care less about.

* - Am I the only one who kept waiting for FBI to pop up again? That scene where Indy and band are at the Soviets camp and Indy and Cate Blanchett are working out the clues together (probably the most interesting bit in the movie, Indy's so excited about the hunt he forgets who he's helping), I was sure the FBI were going appear and "catch" Jones "working with the enemy" or something like that.

Also, I haven't read the script, but I think INDIANA JONES AND THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS is the coolest title they've (n)ever had. I'd go see a movie called INDIANA JONES AND THE SAUCER MEN FROM MARS twice. No matter how bad it was.

A'men. I agree with it all. And Really, Indy couldn't kill at least one Commie? At least fire his gun?

Edited by Shadow Syndicate, 02 August 2008 - 05:15 AM.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

KOTCS definitely suffered from too many people pulling in different directions. If they were to make another Indy they should sort out early on the direction to take it and if everyone can't agree call it quits- not get writer after writer to tweak until every one is partially happy. They haven't got time to twiddle their thumbs this time, maybe we will see something more pure and undiluted.

That said I view KOTCS as a fun two hours which loses a bit of traction mid way through.

Indy's return didn't add anything new (other than CGI), whereas, say, Rocky Balboa's did (or so I'm led to believe; I never saw the film).

You were led up the garden path, I'm afraid.

I'm all for this, but did it need to include Aliens, really. Let me rephrase that, did they have to include aliens as much as they did. We didn't need to see Jesus Christ to believe in the ark or the grail did we? So why show the aliens and a bloody spaceship!

But you're just comparing it to what came before. The relevant question is did it work in the context of the film?

It's true that INDIANA JONES AND THE CRYSTAL SKULL would have been a much, much better, snappier title (and it's my mental shorthand for the movie anyway)

If by snappier you mean shorter, sure. But it is rather mundane. I far prefer Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, which only really becomes a problem when you chain it to 'Indiana Jones and' the much like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

I always thought it would be interesting if they had taken turns directing the movies.

I think a Lucas directed Indy would be an truly interesting excursion if nothing else. Inevitably fanboys would be up in arms claiming it wasn't a legitimate Indy film though.

I've just got Lego Indy for the PS2*, and it's great fun, almost makes up for KOTCS.

If you are looking for any kind of depth in gaming, the LEGO series isn't for you. As an Indy fan I forced myself through, mainly to see how they handled the story segments rather then because of any enjoyment in the gameplay, which is outright repetitive- especially if you have already played LEGO Star Wars.

A'men. I agree with it all. And Really, Indy couldn't kill at least one Commie? At least fire his gun?

That would've been nice.

Edited by Mr Teddy Bear, 02 August 2008 - 06:25 AM.

[Safari Suit]

I've just got Lego Indy for the PS2*, and it's great fun, almost makes up for KOTCS.

If you are looking for any kind of depth in gaming, the LEGO series isn't for you.

Perhaps. I've no idea why you would do such a thing though.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

Because you enjoy stimulating your brain activity to something above a vegetative state?

[marktmurphy]

KOTCS was so utterly pedestrian, especially once it gets to Peru. It felt like a knock-off of an Indiana Jones knock-off. Starts off promising enough, the Hangar 51 and Roswell stuff, the nuclear test town, Indy being questioned by the FBI, etc. I want to see the rest of that movie. We're told he's under FBI investigation, then we never see them again for the rest of the movie*. Instead we just kick into nostalgia mode, with lots of references to previous films, a few lazy clichés of set pieces, and slabs of exposition about some crystal skulls I couldn't care less about.

* - Am I the only one who kept waiting for FBI to pop up again? That scene where Indy and band are at the Soviets camp and Indy and Cate Blanchett are working out the clues together (probably the most interesting bit in the movie, Indy's so excited about the hunt he forgets who he's helping), I was sure the FBI were going appear and "catch" Jones "working with the enemy" or something like that.

That would be great Have you read the City of the Gods script? In that version the FBI chasing Indy plot is given a bit more importance- he's followed around by an agent keeping tabs on him and when the agent is murdered he has to escape from his Dad's house as the police come looking for him; ultimately he skips the country. It all feels a bit more risky for Indy in that version of the story- in Crystal Skull he feels oddly safe.
It's a bit of a shame they've used the FBI thing; if they were making another I'd love to see that angle played up, but it seems like they've wasted it.

If you are looking for any kind of depth in gaming, the LEGO series isn't for you. As an Indy fan I forced myself through, mainly to see how they handled the story segments rather then because of any enjoyment in the gameplay, which is outright repetitive- especially if you have already played LEGO Star Wars.

But you're just comparing it to what came before. The relevant question is did it work in the context of the game?

[Gobi-1]

That would be great Have you read the City of the Gods script? In that version the FBI chasing Indy plot is given a bit more importance- he's followed around by an agent keeping tabs on him and when the agent is murdered he has to escape from his Dad's house as the police come looking for him; ultimately he skips the country. It all feels a bit more risky for Indy in that version of the story- in Crystal Skull he feels oddly safe.

It's a bit of a shame they've used the FBI thing; if they were making another I'd love to see that angle played up, but it seems like they've wasted it.

I somewhat feel the same way. I would have liked to seen the FBI have a larger role in the film. I do feel they could bring it back into a fifth film. The FBI would still be keeping tabs on Indy even after the Crystal Skull incident. I'd also like to see General Ross back for an expanded role.

[Loomis]

So I got Leonard Maltin's 2009 Movie Guide today and was staggered to see a ***1/2 rating (the second highest possible rating) for INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL.

Okay, so I freely admit that I'm miffed that he (predictably) gives RAMBO a mere *1/2 (the second lowest possible rating), but, still, talk about overrating Indy! I mean, is CRYSTAL SKULL really that good? In a word, no.

[Judo chop]

So I got Leonard Maltin's 2009 Movie Guide today and was staggered to see a ***1/2 rating (the second highest possible rating) for INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL.

Okay, so I freely admit that I'm miffed that he (predictably) gives RAMBO a mere *1/2 (the second lowest possible rating), but, still, talk about overrating Indy! I mean, is CRYSTAL SKULL really that good? In a word, no.

In two words, hell no.

I discovered long ago that Maltin and I are not cinema soul mates, and we have since parted ways.

[Loomis]

By way of comparison to his ratings of other recent action franchise blockbusters, he gives THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM, CASINO ROYALE and (somewhat generously) LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD a solid ***, and - utterly, utterly unforgivably - gives ROCKY BALBOA **1/2. I'd say INDY 4 is by some distance the worst of that bunch, but, then again, hey, I guess I'd say that because I'm not Leonard Maltin.

With almost exquisite predictability, he also awards the hallowed ***1/2 rating (the de facto highest possible rating, for his **** ratings are as rare as rare can be, and I haven't yet seen any new **** flicks in this year's edition) to precisely those films you'd expect him to award the ***1/2 rating: CONTROL, THE DIVING BELL AND THE BUTTERFLY, INTO THE WILD, JUNO, NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN, THERE WILL BE BLOOD....

You rarely get surprises with Old Len. Still love his book, though - getting the new edition's always a highlight of my movie geek year.