232 replies to this topic

[Zorin Industries]

If forced to sleep with someone and your only two choices are a really heinous woman or a really attractive guy, who would you pick? Gay sex certainly isn't that much different from straight sex and it obviously ends with the same result.

Babies?

Have you never seen JUNIOR?! Oh, sorry, Arnold doesn't have sex to get pregnant in that one.

I was thinking more on the not-for-procreation side of things.

That's what all straight men tell themselves... I don't know why we have to have all this fuss about men doing to men what straight men want to do to their women, but are not always allowed....

I won't mention any names, but... it's the Bible. Whoops! Messed that one up.

Oh - of course...The Bible! Yes, I forgot that lascivious and godly tome that was nothing but a way of telling complete strangers what to do in bed whilst those in charge were sleeping with all sorts and in all sorts of ways.

Apologies McCartney007, but it takes more than a book someone else has ghostwritten centuries ago to tell me what to do in the sack. And why anyone in the 21 Century leads their life according to medieval hypocrisy is frankly beyond me.

Careful, Zorin. I was banished for less..

Maybe I should rephrase my words into "How old were you when you first read on this thread that Ian Fleming may or may not have been gay?"....that seems to get the right response....that and "what colour do we want the font to be on any online articles discussing the sexual proclivities of one Ian Fleming Esq"... Now I'm just getting silly.

Whoever your God is - may he, she or they go with you all.... x

Edited by Zorin Industries, 20 September 2007 - 11:20 AM.

[Judo chop]

But as someone who was raised very much in the shadow of that tome, I do feel I can have an opinion on it (regardless of whether it tallies with everyone else's). But that's what a healthy debate should be about, no? And surely that can thread off from a discussion on the sexual leanings of Ian Fleming.

Absolutely! Besides, if we haven't figured out if Ian Fleming was gay after 7 pages... probably time to change topics anyway.

If the Bible does indeed say very little about how and with whom we have sex, then why do so many christians feel it's their God-given right (no pun intended) to shake the "thou must not sleep with anyone other than a woman" stick at folk who they frankly have NO business dictating a life-plan to...?

And whilst we're straying from the hymn sheet, I do believe there are vast swathes of hypocrisy in ALL religions. Some of it is because times have moved on. Some of it is because some people won't let it. But either way, I have a huge problem with the Catholic faith (as an example) dictating how only "man" should sleep with "woman" when the Catholic church hardly has a clean pulpit when it comes to alleged sexual wrong-doings with either sex. And please don't anyone try and lambast me for that observation.

There are many, many people who confuse the difference between saying

[Zorin Industries]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='775051' date='20 September 2007 - 15:36'][quote name='Zorin Industries' post='775029' date='20 September 2007 - 05:58']But as someone who was raised very much in the shadow of that tome, I do feel I can have an opinion on it (regardless of whether it tallies with everyone else's). But that's what a healthy debate should be about, no? And surely that can thread off from a discussion on the sexual leanings of Ian Fleming.[/quote]

Absolutely! Besides, if we haven't figured out if Ian Fleming was gay after 7 pages... probably time to change topics anyway.

[quote]If the Bible does indeed say very little about how and with whom we have sex, then why do so many christians feel it's their God-given right (no pun intended) to shake the "thou must not sleep with anyone other than a woman" stick at folk who they frankly have NO business dictating a life-plan to...?

And whilst we're straying from the hymn sheet, I do believe there are vast swathes of hypocrisy in ALL religions. Some of it is because times have moved on. Some of it is because some people won't let it. But either way, I have a huge problem with the Catholic faith (as an example) dictating how only "man" should sleep with "woman" when the Catholic church hardly has a clean pulpit when it comes to alleged sexual wrong-doings with either sex. And please don't anyone try and lambast me for that observation.[/quote]

There are many, many people who confuse the difference between saying

[Jim]

[quote name='Zorin Industries' post='775066' date='20 September 2007 - 16:26'][quote name='Judo chop' post='775051' date='20 September 2007 - 15:36'][quote name='Zorin Industries' post='775029' date='20 September 2007 - 05:58']But as someone who was raised very much in the shadow of that tome, I do feel I can have an opinion on it (regardless of whether it tallies with everyone else's). But that's what a healthy debate should be about, no? And surely that can thread off from a discussion on the sexual leanings of Ian Fleming.[/quote]

Absolutely! Besides, if we haven't figured out if Ian Fleming was gay after 7 pages... probably time to change topics anyway.

[quote]If the Bible does indeed say very little about how and with whom we have sex, then why do so many christians feel it's their God-given right (no pun intended) to shake the "thou must not sleep with anyone other than a woman" stick at folk who they frankly have NO business dictating a life-plan to...?

And whilst we're straying from the hymn sheet, I do believe there are vast swathes of hypocrisy in ALL religions. Some of it is because times have moved on. Some of it is because some people won't let it. But either way, I have a huge problem with the Catholic faith (as an example) dictating how only "man" should sleep with "woman" when the Catholic church hardly has a clean pulpit when it comes to alleged sexual wrong-doings with either sex. And please don't anyone try and lambast me for that observation.[/quote]

There are many, many people who confuse the difference between saying

[Judo chop]

As I've said before - may all our Gods go with us. Let's not get too bogged down in this discussion in this thread. There is a far greater discussion about homosexuality in the Bond books and films - and one I wouldn't mind starting. But I don't want to see God, the Bible or christianity come into the discussion. James Bond 007 is my entertainment, not my guilt.

Very well, no more God talk from me at this latest request (even though you hung the

[Judo chop]

Boys, boys - get a room, for God's sake. (A sentence that encompasses the topics of the thread, prob'ly).

I think everyone is a bit wound up and needs some relief from tension.

Not at all, Jim. At least I don

[Zorin Industries]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='775076' date='20 September 2007 - 16:40'][quote name='Zorin Industries' post='775066' date='20 September 2007 - 10:26']As I've said before - may all our Gods go with us. Let's not get too bogged down in this discussion in this thread. There is a far greater discussion about homosexuality in the Bond books and films - and one I wouldn't mind starting. But I don't want to see God, the Bible or christianity come into the discussion. James Bond 007 is my entertainment, not my guilt.[/quote]
Very well, no more God talk from me at this latest request (even though you hung the

[dee-bee-five]

Maybe I should rephrase my words into "How old were you when you first read on this thread that Ian Fleming may or may not have been gay?"....that seems to get the right response....that and "what colour do we want the font to be on any online articles discussing the sexual proclivities of one Ian Fleming Esq"...

Indeed. I have to say I haven't missed trawling through endless threads along the lines of "If James Bond were a dog, what breed would he be?" which seem to proliferate on CBn these days - at least on the evidence I see on the very rare occasions I drop in these days.

[Jim]

Maybe I should rephrase my words into "How old were you when you first read on this thread that Ian Fleming may or may not have been gay?"....that seems to get the right response....that and "what colour do we want the font to be on any online articles discussing the sexual proclivities of one Ian Fleming Esq"...

Indeed. I have to say I haven't missed trawling through endless threads along the lines of "If James Bond were a dog, what breed would he be?" which seem to proliferate on CBn these days - at least on the evidence I see on the very rare occasions I drop in these days.

Oh.

You don't know what you're missing; we had a very lengthy thread called "What time is it now?" which was most engaging although I admit that the game "Write out your humming of a tune" did become a little monotonous. It became very difficult to distinguish between "Mmmm mmm mmm mm /MM-mmm mmm-mmm-mmmmmm MM!", and "Mmmm mmm mmm mm /MM-mmm mmm-mmm-mmmmmm MM!", one of which was apparently Flower of Scotland and the other the theme to George and Mildred.

[Sigma7]

Fleming was not gay, he had gay friends, and touched on gayness in certain novels . END OF TOPIC hahhahahahahah

[Simon]

Could we perhaps wrap up this thread by simply stating that anyone who's read either of Fleming's biographies would know that Fleming was quite obviously a raging heterosexual, and that any attempt to say otherwise is made in ignorance of the facts?

Perhaps one post out of a hundred that didn't include biblical references.

So, having just finished the Battle for Bond by Robert Sellers, can anyone clear up or expand upon the 'letter that it would be considered unwise to comment upon publically' by the lawyers in the Fleming Thunderball copyright case.

This just after it was stated there were untold numbers of letters between him and Ivar Bryce signed off with love and kisses - by Fleming.

So theatrical types might go in for that, but I didn't get the impression Fleming was 'theatrical'.

[triviachamp]

So, having just finished the Battle for Bond by Robert Sellers, can anyone clear up or expand upon the 'letter that it would be considered unwise to comment upon publically' by the lawyers in the Fleming Thunderball copyright case.

This just after it was stated there were untold numbers of letters between him and Ivar Bryce signed off with love and kisses - by Fleming.

So theatrical types might go in for that, but I didn't get the impression Fleming was 'theatrical'.

I wondered about that myself....

This is probably the longest thread I have created. Controversy sells I guess.

[LadySylvia]

Yes but he writes with such gusto and absolutely celebrates 'womanhood' in a sexual way not an idolistic way that one would expect from a closet gay.

Are you sure? From the way he described some of his heroines' rear ends, he seemed to get off by the idea that they resembled a man's.

[Bondian]

Does it really matter if he was gay or not?. We have 8000+ male members (no pun intended) who're gagging at the helm to know what's going to happen in Bond 22.

It's only the female members (again, no pun intended) who do not give a toss.

[Zorin Industries]

"Theatrical"...? How Victorian of people to be unable to use the phrase "homosexual"....

[Simon]

Theatrical types can be homosexual - how's that?

It was a comparative term, not used to specifically denote through metaphor homosexuality.

So for my part, I still don't see Fleming as having been theatrical as he wasn't in showbusiness first and foremost. So if he was in, let's say, Defence, for the most part they don't sign off to each with other with love and kisses.

[007Bond]

I must be dreamin'...

[blackjack60]

This is getting silly. Fleming has been the subject of two exhaustive biographies that establish without a doubt that he was a compulsive womanizer and slept with hundreds of women. He was quite obviously heterosexual.
He was also open enough about sexual matters to admit that he'd lost his virginity "the old fashioned way" at boarding school, and to admit that he liked firm behinds on women. In the novels he's quite capable of writing admiringly about handsome and well-built men. And he's even more capable of drooling over his heroines' breasts and other body parts, especially when they're naked or nearly so.
Signing off "love and kisses" to a close friend is hardly evidence either. Many people are flippant in letters to close friends precisely because they're with people who can tell they're being ironic.
The evidence overwhelmingly points toward Fleming being a hound for the ladies.

[triviachamp]

The evidence overwhelmingly points toward Fleming being a hound for the ladies.

All of those women were just a cover.

He was also open enough about sexual matters to admit that he'd lost his virginity "the old fashioned way" at boarding school

I wonder what he meant by that? Considering that he wrote this in 1962 I don't think he was talking about being raped at Eton...

Anyway my next thread will be: Was Fleming a Fascist Nazi who killed Marilyn Monroe and JFK?

[LadySylvia]

It's only the female members (again, no pun intended) who do not give a toss.

Huh?

[RazorBlade]

Except for the unstimulating discussion about Zorin's religious prejudices, btw I've met some athetists who were as anti-gay politically as an Bible thumper, I still don't see any reason to assume IF was gay or leaned that way.

[Zorin Industries]

Except for the unstimulating discussion about Zorin's religious prejudices, btw I've met some athetists who were as anti-gay politically as an Bible thumper, I still don't see any reason to assume IF was gay or leaned that way.

"Religious prejudices"...? Why do the majority of all "God loving" folk (God loving to the exclusion of everyone else) assume that someone having a different opinion will affect their God? If he or she is so strong and powerful, someone with nothing but a different point of view should not really matter, should it?

AND I WILL ALWAYS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANYONE IN THIS WORLD USING GOD AND THE MAN-MADE TEACHINGS AROUND HIM OR HER TO DAMN SOME PEOPLE IN ORDER TO APPEASE AND EVEN CONTROL OTHERS.

And as for the arena of this thread and the very telling panic it has aroused over the months, I hate to tell some of you, but people all over the world and within every religion enjoy a bit of back-door loving. Because let's face it - any upset caused by a discussion of this nature boils down to the fact some people think it is their God-given right to dictate what others are permitted to do in the bedroom. Love, compassion, relationships and happiness in life never come into the equation when some start damning and having clear problems with even saying the word "homosexual". Which is a great shame and one of the greatest pitfalls of religion : preach love, peace and equality, but on our terms only.

I'm more than happy with my "religious prejudices". I know which makes me a better person on this planet.

Now....is Santa gay....? Come on...all that red and a love of sherry?!

[Santa]

Now....is Santa gay....? Come on...all that red and a love of sherry?!

Er...I...I...I prefer vodka and my favourite colour is blue. As for the other Santa, no, he's ultra hetero.

[Skudor]

I very much doubt Fleming was gay. Maybe he dabbled or was bi. Don't really care, to be honest.

Sounds like his buddy Bryce was, though, and he possibly did some flirting with McClory back in the day.

[Simon]

Signing off "love and kisses" to a close friend is hardly evidence either. Many people are flippant in letters to close friends precisely because they're with people who can tell they're being ironic.
The evidence overwhelmingly points toward Fleming being a hound for the ladies.

If the evidence, if we can call it that, was just the Love and Kisses, you have a point.

But if you have read the Battle for Bond book, this was said in relation to a lawyer's question over the prudence in making public 'another' letter between the two. And that this was mentioned in direct connection or reference to the love and kisses was what was perhaps pertinant.

But since the contents have never been disclosed, the facts will never be known. It is a but a question to mull over.

[ACE]

I'm perplexed.

I too have read The Battle For Bond.

At no point in that book or in any surrounding context does the "smoking gun" letter refer to or intimate anything about Fleming's sexuality.

I can see why an inference might be drawn but there are a number of other things it could relate to.

[blackjack60]

But if you have read the Battle for Bond book, this was said in relation to a lawyer's question over the prudence in making public 'another' letter between the two.

Which could have been about ANYTHING, especially since it was another letter. Perhaps Bryce and Fleming were talking about affairs they'd had with other women, or were casting aspersions on the size of McClory's penis, or plotting a communist takeover of the Western hemisphere, or what have you. I find it very hard to jump to the conclusion that Fleming and Bryce were bonking each other. It would either have to be a spectacularly well-kept secret (especially since Andrew Lycett has already discovered Fleming's other secret affairs), or, if it was true, it doesn't change the fact that Fleming lead a predominantly heterosexual life, and at most might have a bi-sexual fling. Whether he did or didn't, it pales in interest next to actually discussing his writing, which is the reason we bother remembering him anyway.

[Simon]

Whether he did or didn't, it pales in interest next to actually discussing his writing, .....

For whom? For you, or for everyone?

At the risk of belabouring a point that even I have to admit I wasn't interested in until I had read the Battle book, there could be any number of reasons that new things only come to light after time.

Fleming did appear to have numerous affairs. Personally, I never got the impression he actually 'liked' women. More that he used them and perhaps as part of an Old Boys' sort of pastime that they had ritualised. I don't know.

Perhaps Lycett knew but didn't want to discuss this. I don't know.

Maybe he doesn't know, and we know he didn't know everything as the Battle book has information new to us all. So who is to say that there will be a time in our lives when something else new arrives over the horizon.

Or maybe, there is nothing to know.

My position was one of questioning to see what stance other people took upon reading the passage. I am certainly not stating that this, that and the other passage is categorically defining his sexual status.

[SILVERTOE]

The easy way to tell if he was gay or not, is to find out if he could whitsle!

[Licence_007]

I don't think Fleming was gay, perhaps just a bit more open-minded than most people in his era. Maybe he did have some homosexual experiences, maybe he didn't. Regardless if he did or not, I think Ian was a gin-drinking, Bond-writing, female-chasing cad who loved the opposite sex.