2081 replies to this topic

[DamnCoffee]

I have just been to see this movie... one world... BRILLIANT! I loved it from start to finish. Ledger was absoloutly brilliant as the Joker. I felt quite sad at the end though as I thought that this was the last film he ever did. The part is so iconic. I miss him so much. I applauded at the end. Everyone else joined in. I was the last one in the screening, I actually said. "Thank You Heath" before I left aswell.

[Judo chop]

As for the ferry scene… the problem is not that a scene tanked. The problem is that a PIVOTAL scene tanked. THIS is the moment where the Joker’s reason for unreason unravels. This is where the film is headed. It’s to be one of the great messages we’re to take from it. Much of the weight of the entire film, I think, rests upon the outcome of this moment. It’s a really bad time for an ‘oops’.

So far, this scene has only been discussed in vague commentaries... "It needs to be better." "It's cliche." etc. and so on. Well, Judo (and others), what would you change about it? What specifically would you modify to make it work?

Oh, come on. You know my credentials well enough to know that I have no hope of creating a better scene from scratch. I can only criticize that which already is. (Yes, yes. Very convenient for me. )

I’ll try though. Missing, first off, are compelling characters. REAL humans, with real dialogue, displaying believable emotions. Not once do I feel scared for either boat party, or even better yet, do I feel like a part of the party. I don’t find myself asking “what would I do?!”, which is what the scene needs to do to really sell itself.

Set-up may have a bit to do with it. I think because of the pacing of the film I felt thrust into the moment, kind of like, “we had better get this plot thing going now”. The Joker’s announcement felt a little too 'instructional'. A terrible situation like that probably feels more terrible when you discover the macabre options for yourself. I think the Joker’s intercom announcement smells a little cliché and handed over.

But execution during the scene is just terrible. Maybe it’d have been wise to use some of that sharply edited jittery camera work during the boat scenes. The whole moment dwells on the somber, but none of the panic. Decisions are made as if they’re part of a jury deciding on someone else’s imprisonment, and not their own lives. Or, most of the passengers look defeated and miserable as if they’ve all already accepted that they’re the ones to go.

Just about every piece of dialogue I would scrap, though a line that I think should be kept is from the fella who notices that the time has passed and that they’re still alive. Definitely toss the big convict and his deliberately misleading speech. What is his story? If he was fully intending to pull the trigger, he would have just grabbed the detonator and done it. Who would have stopped him? Or, if he suddenly had a bout of morality, why not do the same and toss the detonator out the window. Why all the talk? I’ll tell you why… the same reason Jackson gave us the Aragorn ‘fake-out’ death. “Gasp! Could it be!?”

I cannot believe that you think the scene is perfect, or even 'good'. Sufficient at best. What are your ideas?

[HildebrandRarity]

As for the ferry scene… the problem is not that a scene tanked. The problem is that a PIVOTAL scene tanked. THIS is the moment where the Joker’s reason for unreason unravels. This is where the film is headed. It’s to be one of the great messages we’re to take from it. Much of the weight of the entire film, I think, rests upon the outcome of this moment. It’s a really bad time for an ‘oops’.

So far, this scene has only been discussed in vague commentaries... "It needs to be better." "It's cliche." etc. and so on. Well, Judo (and others), what would you change about it? What specifically would you modify to make it work?

Ha, you're assuming that we earn our living writing screenplays. I'm not a guy who does treatments for films. Hell, I don't even write James Bond short stories or novels as some other good folk here do.

I do, however, watch a fair amount of first run movies and I felt that the last 25 minutes could have been better or more thought out.

After the surprises and shocks of the pencil dissappearing and the switch which leads to Rachel getting blown up, the intensity of the Joker scenes in the interrogation room, the final two conflict resolutions seem sub-par and cliche'd.

I already have given my thoughts about Harvey Two Face going after a helpless, innocent little blonde boy for no good reason other than to tug on the heart-strings of the weak-minded, less discerning movie-goer.

As for the Ferries-At-Midnite Scene, how about a real cinematic surprise instead of the big black convict throwing away the detenator? How about this:

The big black guy taking the detonator after he says "i'll do it"...the scene cuts to the 'good' ferry with the old white guy sweating like hell with the detonator in his hands. Almost everyone changing their mind on the 'good' ferry saying "don't do it"...cut back to the 'criminals' ferry momentarily with big black guy moving towards the window, the other ferry in his sights...cut to clock almost at midnight...cut to good ferry with another white man running to old man with detonator who hesitatingly looks like he won't push the button...

cut to Joker/Batman fight...

cut to very long shot of ferries - Boom! One ferry blown to the skies and up in flames...

cut to Joker cackling with glee...

Audience has no idea which ferry blew up...

...cut to big bad black guy, his detonator still NOT clicked to ON/DETONATE saying "that wasn't me"!

How's that for somewhat of a surprise?

Joker lied about the detonators connected to the other ferry and only one person on the good ferry (the one who moves swiftly to the man with detonator in the scene I suggest above) is truly willing to kill. The tragedy is that he kills everyone on the good ferry.

That would be bold and shocking and it would change the cliche'd morality tete-a-tete between the battling Joker and Batman. It's a morality tale I don't like and too often used in popcorn flicks.

...and Batman lets Joker fall to his death, Joker cackling and laughing and wheezing as he crashes to the cement!

[Harmsway]

I’ll try though. Missing, first off, are compelling characters. REAL humans, with real dialogue, displaying believable emotions. Not once do I feel scared for either boat party, or even better yet, do I feel like a part of the party. I don’t find myself asking “what would I do?!”, which is what the scene needs to do to really sell itself.

Ah. Fair enough. My reaction didn't at all match yours (I was scared for the boat parties, and found the scene incredible tense and suspenseful on both viewings), but if you don't feel that, obviously the scenes fall apart.

The whole moment dwells on the somber, but none of the panic. Decisions are made as if they’re part of a jury deciding on someone else’s imprisonment, and not their own lives. Or, most of the passengers look defeated and miserable as if they’ve all already accepted that they’re the ones to go.

Well, yes. It's a very somber moment as opposed to tons and oodles of panic. From a filmmaking perspective, I think that's a right way to go about it, rather than going all chaotic (we get so much chaos before and after it), and I don't find it unbelievable. There are real-life reports from similar crisis situations that mirror the actions of the ferry passengers.

If he was fully intending to pull the trigger, he would have just grabbed the detonator and done it. Who would have stopped him?

Uh, the armed guards? Nevermind had he just grabbed it, it might cause a huge panic from the guards and inmates, causing plenty of unneeded injury. If he really was as decent a human being as the movie suggests, talking slowly to the guy as not to cause incident was the best way to go about it.

I cannot believe that you think the scene is perfect, or even 'good'. Sufficient at best. What are your ideas?

I think it is a good scene. Not perfect - the bit part actors I don't find convincing - but good. The writing is obvious, but that's no major crime, either.

[Judo chop]

That would be bold and shocking and it would change the cliche'd morality tete-a-tete between the battling Joker and Batman.

But I think we're supposed to fix the scene so that the Joker still 'loses', ya know?

[Harmsway]

Ha, you're assuming that we earn our living writing screenplays. I'm not a guy who does treatments for films. Hell, I don't even write James Bond short stories or novels as some other good folk here do.

No, I'm assuming that if a scene doesn't work for you, you know how to diagnose the problem. Now, if that isn't the case, and it "simply doesn't work for you," that's okay. But it is always more interesting when the discussion gets beyond that.

How's that for somewhat of a surprise? Joker lied about the detonators connected to the other ferry and only one person on the good ferry (the one who moves swiftly to the man with detonator in the scene I suggest above) is truly willing to kill. The tragedy is that he kills himself and everyone who's good.

Big tragedy, sure. But it also sends a message about humanity that would be horrifically bleak. I think Nolan wanted a shred of hope to remain. And I think he's right in that. The rest of the film is one tragic incident after another... it's nice to see something justifying some degree of faith in humanity.

[Loomis]

But hey, not everbody can like these big phenomenon films. In fact, history has showed us that the bigger the hype around a film is, the more likely there is to be a substantial group of folks who don't think it's all that.

Well, I sometimes like big phenomenon films and I'm sometimes prepared to buy into the hype. For instance, PULP FICTION and TITANIC were two of my best ever cinema experiences, and both of those were hyped to the skies on release.

When I think the hype is deserved I'll come aboard. When I think it's undeserved I'll say so.

As for the ferry sequence, some suspense would have worked wonders. I never felt anyone was in any real danger and didn't care about the characters anyway. Maybe if the dude who tried to blackmail Wayne had been on the civilian ferry we'd have had the moral dilemma thing going on in our own heads - do we want to see this slimeball live or die? Something like that.

It should have been an awesome sequence, something to be talked about for years to come, but it's just flat and dull.

[Harmsway]

Well, I sometimes like big phenomenon films and I'm sometimes prepared to buy into the hype.

I never indicated otherwise. We all have phenomenon films we each buy into, but there's no phenomenon film that will enchant everybody. You mention PULP FICTION and TITANIC... well, I don't like either of those (find the first one desperately hollow and find the second one unbearably awful). So there ya go.

[HildebrandRarity]

Ha, you're assuming that we earn our living writing screenplays. I'm not a guy who does treatments for films. Hell, I don't even write James Bond short stories or novels as some other good folk here do.

No, I'm assuming that if a scene doesn't work for you, you know how to diagnose the problem. Now, if that isn't the case, and it "simply doesn't work for you," that's okay. But it is always more interesting when the discussion gets beyond that.

How's that for somewhat of a surprise? Joker lied about the detonators connected to the other ferry and only one person on the good ferry (the one who moves swiftly to the man with detonator in the scene I suggest above) is truly willing to kill. The tragedy is that he kills himself and everyone who's good.

Big tragedy, sure. But it also sends a message about humanity that would be horrifically bleak. I think Nolan wanted a shred of hope to remain. And I think he's right in that. The rest of the film is one tragic incident after another... it's nice to see something justifying some degree of faith in humanity.

Yea...and that's why i say in my scenario that everyone on the good ferry (but one) changes their mind and says "don't do it"...and that the big guy on the criminal ferry still has the detonator un triggered in his hand.

[Loomis]

Sure. I just sensed the implication that some of us were dissing THE DARK KNIGHT in order to be part of a "cool" backlash.

Some beautiful establishing shots in this film, though, I'll give it that. The Hong Kong skyline and so on. It's a visual feast and the performances are good. Other than that, though....

There's still probably enough to merit a second viewing, though. Like I say, I want to see it in Imax.

[Harmsway]

Yea...and that's why i say in my scenario that everyone on the good ferry (but one) changes their mind and says "don't do it"...and that the big guy on the criminal ferry still has the detonator un triggered in his hand.

But the Joker will still have won. And it would still be just one more defeat in a film full of them.

[HildebrandRarity]

Yea...and that's why i say in my scenario that everyone on the good ferry (but one) changes their mind and says "don't do it"...and that the big guy on the criminal ferry still has the detonator un triggered in his hand.

But the Joker will still have won. And it would still be just one more defeat in a film full of them.

No because in my scenario Joker is killed by Batman and the audience knows that there was only one person out of a few hundred who was willing to kill others in order to save himself. A more realistic and satisfying a scenario. I doubt you could disagree.

I mean I made up the new ferries scene on the fly...just in the past 25 minutes. Without truly fleshing it out. Nolan and co could have done better, is all i'm saying.

[Harmsway]

Sure. I just sensed the implication that some of us were dissing THE DARK KNIGHT in order to be part of a "cool" backlash.

No more than those of us who love THE DARK KNIGHT are just trying to be part of the "cool" crowd that loves it. So yeah. I've got nothing against anybody who dislikes THE DARK KNIGHT, and to be honest, Loomis, I would have been somewhat suprised if you were crazy about it.

Some beautiful establishing shots in this film, though, I'll give it that. The Hong Kong skyline and so on.

Quite right. The visuals are the biggest area of improvement from BEGINS to THE DARK KNIGHT, if you ask me.

There's still probably enough to merit a second viewing, though. Like I say, I want to see it in Imax.

I've heard the IMAX experience is quite incredible. I'm looking to see an IMAX viewing next week.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Ferry scene: A poster on AICN suggested a soccer mom sieze the detonator,obviously commiting suicide, and blow up the ferry with the "good" people on board . I hate to say it but I agree. I was actually actually rooting for that to happen! If the joker was laughing and dancing in celebration after such an event that would have given more "edge" to the movie...

But I guess the point of the ferry dilema was to establish that most people aren't nihilistic like the Joker...

[Harmsway]

No because in my scenario Joker is killed by Batman.

But he still wins. And doubly. Because he not only proved the nature of humanity, he got Batman to become a cold-blooded murderer (which is what the Joker had been begging for him to do during the whole film). It would be bleaker than anything already in THE DARK KNIGHT.

[HildebrandRarity]

No because in my scenario Joker is killed by Batman.

But he still wins. And doubly. Because he not only proved the nature of humanity, he got Batman to become a cold-blooded murderer (which is what the Joker had been begging for him to do during the whole film). It would be bleaker than anything already in THE DARK KNIGHT.

No, finish my quote...you quote me out of context and while was still swiftly formulating my thoughts.

[Judo chop]

The whole moment dwells on the somber, but none of the panic. Decisions are made as if they’re part of a jury deciding on someone else’s imprisonment, and not their own lives. Or, most of the passengers look defeated and miserable as if they’ve all already accepted that they’re the ones to go.

Well, yes. It's a very somber moment as opposed to tons and oodles of panic. From a filmmaking perspective, I think that's a right way to go about it, rather than going all chaotic (we get so much chaos before and after it), and I don't find it unbelievable. There are real-life reports from similar crisis situations that mirror the actions of the ferry passengers.

Somber? Really? Just sitting there in sulking indecision, effectively waiting for both boats to blow? And if they believe that both boats are going to blow anyway, then why not jump for it? I guess there are a lot of questions to ask in a situation such as that, and I didn’t feel like the scene took me into the moment to ask them of myself.

What absolutely, positively has to go, are the repeated comments on the ‘good’ boat in the vein of “they HAD their chance!” Honestly. That makes me gag. Not because it’s morally foul, but because it’s stupid.

Suspense is what it’s missing, as Loomis said. Maybe more cuts are the way to go? More shots of the clock? Is the music effective at that point? – I can’t remember. Maybe more score, maybe less, maybe none. Maybe more panicked conversation between passengers? Maybe a tussle between someone who’s obviously lost it thinking about their wife and kids and someone who is more level-headed, and in the mix of the scrap the detonator squirts out, bounces a few times and lands unswitched in the corner of the room… everyone stops and gasps thinking ‘Wow. That was almost IT!” in a moment of consequences considered. And if that doesn’t work, bring in Roger Moore in clown suit.

[Harmsway]

No because in my scenario Joker is killed by Batman.

But he still wins. And doubly. Because he not only proved the nature of humanity, he got Batman to become a cold-blooded murderer (which is what the Joker had been begging for him to do during the whole film). It would be bleaker than anything already in THE DARK KNIGHT.

No, finish my quote...you quote me out of context and while was still swiftly formulating my thoughts.

Well, technically I didn't quote you out of context because all of your thoughts weren't there when I quoted you.

But it still stands that even if the audience knows there were good people on the ferries, the Joker's symbolic act still has its power - he won his victory, as far as he's concerned. He doesn't need everyone on the ferry to be bad to claim that victory. And it still stands that the Batman's killing of the Joker isn't really a victory, it's a defeat in that it's acceding to the Joker's desires.

[Judo chop]

To Harms and Hilde: No doubt about it. Both ferries had to survive unblownupped or the Joker wins. Like SE7EN. The only way to beat the evil one is to not feed him more evil.

[Harmsway]

Suspense is what it’s missing, as Loomis said.

Well it was there for me. In spades. So I guess that's why we feel so differently about this finale, and since that's more of a gut reaction thing than anything, I guess we'll all just have to agree to disagree, because that's an area where discussion can't really be productive.

[Judo chop]

Suspense is what it’s missing, as Loomis said.

Well it was there for me. In spades. So I guess that's why we feel so differently about this finale, and since that's more of a gut reaction thing than anything, I guess we'll all just have to agree to disagree, because that's an area where discussion can't really be productive.

Well, it's not like I'm going to produce anything by going back to work either...

One last note: The scene with Gordon, the shotgun weilding cop and that tool in the car on the way to the hospital... That was suspensful. The cop is basically put in the same situation as those on the ferry: kill this basically innocent guy, or don't and introduce a situation in which my wife could potentially be killed.

That one worked for me. So, I'm not beyond hope. You help me to appreciate the ferry sequence, and I'll help you to see that the dinner sequence is on par with just about any Bond/villain confrontation.

[HildebrandRarity]

No because in my scenario Joker is killed by Batman.

But he still wins. And doubly. Because he not only proved the nature of humanity, he got Batman to become a cold-blooded murderer (which is what the Joker had been begging for him to do during the whole film). It would be bleaker than anything already in THE DARK KNIGHT.

No, finish my quote...you quote me out of context and while was still swiftly formulating my thoughts.

Well, technically I didn't quote you out of context because all of your thoughts weren't there when I quoted you.

But it still stands that even if the audience knows there were good people on the ferries, the Joker's symbolic act still has its power - he won his victory, as far as he's concerned. He doesn't need everyone on the ferry to be bad to claim that victory. And it still stands that the Batman's killing of the Joker isn't really a victory, it's a defeat in that it's acceding to the Joker's desires.

OK, well, as I said I only had 25 minutes and it was off the 'cuff. What if I were to modify my scenario to:

..the other white guy on the good ferry who moves to the hesitating old white guy has a struggle with the old man...and we actually don't know whether he moves swiftly to actually pull the trigger himself or whether he wants to take away the detonator from the old man who's hessitating/wavering.

And...Joker is killed in the fight with Batman as a result of the fall and his cackling, laughing head hits the cement the moment after he notices that it's 2 seconds to midnight on his watch...and the long shot of the ferry blowing up happens virtually simultaneously. Thus Joker does not see the accidental blowing up of the ferry and THINKS he's failed just as his skull is to be crushed against the cement.

Now that is cool and bold and different and shocking and dramatic...and it dots all the Is and crosses all the Ts on the audience side as well as the Joker losing all around and evil not beggeting more evil.

[Harmsway]

Now that is cool and bold and different and shocking and dramatic...and it dots all the Is and crosses all the Ts on the audience side as well as the Joker losing all around and evil not beggeting more evil.

It's all the above, and admittedly, it would work for most people, I'm sure. It's not at all a scenario I'd prefer (I'm dead-set against the Joker dying in any fashion at all), but I see why it works more for you and it would work more for some others. Props on the creativity.

[HildebrandRarity]

Now that is cool and bold and different and shocking and dramatic...and it dots all the Is and crosses all the Ts on the audience side as well as the Joker losing all around and evil not beggeting more evil.

It's all the above, and admittedly, it would work for most people, I'm sure. It's not at all a scenario I'd prefer (I'm dead-set against the Joker dying in any fashion at all), but I see why it works more for you and it would work more for some others. Props on the creativity.

Thanks...and that's from only 50 minutes worth of intellectual masturbation ( ) from a guy who does not even write James Bond 007 short stories or fan fiction. Nolan and company had more than 50 minutes and are (very good) movie professionals. What's their excuse for letting things sag off after a rivetting 2h 5mins ?

Add in the fact that Heath Ledger IS The Joker in this reboot...and Heath is actually no longer with us...well, you have the perfect scenario.

[Harmsway]

What's their excuse for letting things sag off after a rivetting 2h 5mins ?

Well, as I've said before, I don't think they did. And even if I did think the ferries thing didn't work all that well, I think the other elements of that sequence (the hostage situation and SWAT team material and Batman's confrontation of the Joker) would more than keep it afloat for me. 'Cause I think they're absolutely excellent. And even once that's overwith, I have the crackling Dent confrontation to look forward to (and yes, I know you don't care for that sequence at all).

I'll take me all this stuff over any third act material in any pre-existing superhero film. Including that lazy finale for BEGINS, which I dislike more and more with each viewing.

[Judo chop]

Does anybody have access to Oldman's final dialogue of the film? What he says to his son (or audience, rather) as Batman runs away? I missed half of it because the music and the sound effects were over emphasized and drowned him out.

[Harmsway]

Does anybody have access to Oldman's final dialogue of the film? What he says to his son (or audience, rather) as Batman runs away? I missed half of it because the music and the sound effects were over emphasized and drowned him out.

"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight."

[HildebrandRarity]

I liked that bit of dialoge from Oldham/Gordon...great way to end the final scene of the movie with the dogs chasing the Batman through the alleys at night!

and so we'll hunt him...because he can take it.

I liked that!

[Judo chop]

Does anybody have access to Oldman's final dialogue of the film? What he says to his son (or audience, rather) as Batman runs away? I missed half of it because the music and the sound effects were over emphasized and drowned him out.

"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight."

Thanks.

I like some of it. I like, "Because he can take it." Tough edge to it.

I don't like that "Because he's the hero..." and "Because he's not a hero..." make their way into the same paragraph. Someone please help me to find sense in that, because right now it looks like some disgruntled sound technician deliberately tampered with the dialogue to screw the film.

[Harmsway]

I don't like that "Because he's the hero..." and "Because he's not a hero..." make their way into the same paragraph. Someone please help me to find sense in that, because right now it looks like some disgruntled sound technician deliberately tampered with the dialogue to screw the film.

I don't know precisely why it's written that way. My guess is that Gordon's drawing the distinction between being a true hero and being a hero in the public eye. In truth, he's a real hero - he's the noble character that Gotham should adore - but in his public role, he's not a hero at all.