2081 replies to this topic

[Judo chop]

Dear esteemed minds,

What do we make of Batman’s Hong Kong escape plan? How was that set up? Who is flying the plane? Why would air traffic laws let that plane slip in there unnoticed or unchecked and how would it not leave a trail heading back to Wayne? Or does the plane have nothing to do with Wayne? Is it a random passenger or cargo plane that Batman tracked and timed to know exactly when and where it’d be?

“It’s just a movie” is one possible and plenty viable answer, but it’s one I already know. I would like to hear the other possibilities, if they are out there.

Judo

[Harmsway]

How was that set up? Who is flying the plane? Why would air traffic laws let that plane slip in there unnoticed or unchecked and how would it not leave a trail heading back to Wayne? Or does the plane have nothing to do with Wayne? Is it a random passenger or cargo plane that Batman tracked and timed to know exactly when and where it’d be?

I thought they explained much of this in the dialogue, re: contracting the plane, hiring the mercenary pilots, and giving Wayne a successful alibi. Not everything is wrapped up, mind you, but they did address at least half of your concerns.

[Judo chop]

How was that set up? Who is flying the plane? Why would air traffic laws let that plane slip in there unnoticed or unchecked and how would it not leave a trail heading back to Wayne? Or does the plane have nothing to do with Wayne? Is it a random passenger or cargo plane that Batman tracked and timed to know exactly when and where it’d be?

I thought they explained much of this in the dialogue, re: contracting the plane, hiring the mercenary pilots, and giving Wayne a successful alibi. Not everything is wrapped up, mind you, but they did address at least half of your concerns.

Dude. I must have completely spaced during much of that, then. Though, now that you mention it, suddenly my memory is flooded with images of Wayne on his yacht, then diving off towards the sea-plane.

Yes, I need to see this one again.

Thank you.

[DamnCoffee]

Ledger's Joker 'one of ultimate villains'
Friday, July 25 2008, 10:38 BST

By Beth Hilton, Entertainment Reporter




Heath Ledger's Joker in new Batman film The Dark Knight has been voted one of the ultimate movie villains.

Ledger's performance, which has sparked calls for a posthumous Oscar, finished ninth in the poll of more than 2,500 film lovers by Lovefilm.com.

Anthony Hopkins's Academy Award-winning turn as Hannibal Lecter topped the survey, followed by Star Wars baddie Darth Vader, played by David Prowse and voiced by James Earl Jones.

Joe Pesci came in third for his role as gangster Tommy DeVito in Goodfellas, with Javier Bardem close behind for his Oscar-winning performance as hitman Anton Chigurh in No Country For Old Men.

Fifth and sixth spots were taken by Alan Rickman as Hans Gruber in Die Hard and Kathy Bates as nurse Annie Wilkes in Misery.

The top ten was rounded out by Kevin Spacey as John Doe in Se7en, Jack Nicholson as Jack Torrance in The Shining and Robert De Niro as Al Capone in The Untouchables.

[Judo chop]

Hopkins - Hannibal Lecter
Darth Vader
Pesci - Tommy
Javier Bardem - Anton Chigurh
Alan Rickman - Hans Gruber
Kathy Bates - Annie Wilkes
Kevin Spacey - John Doe
Jack Nicholson - Jack Torrance
Ledger - Joker
Robert De Niro - Al Capone

That’s the top-10 list, huh ? I thought HAL 9000 was supposed to be a top-villain on every list?

I have a hard time with Darth. It’s not really a ‘performance’ per se, but he’s undoubtedly one of the greatest (if not, THE greatest) film villains of all time. So I guess there needs to be two lists, really; one for actor performance (which would probably take forever to compile and never to agree) and one for character impact on culture. Toss the beloved HAL in the second category.

In either case, Jack as Jack should not have to pick scraps from the likes of Rickman, Bates, or “for the love of holiness HTF is he rated so highly?!” Spacey.
And quite honestly I am 100% fine with Ledger’s performance as the Joker beating out almost the whole bunch. We’ll see what kind of cultural shockwaves he makes in time, but based on performance alone I’ll put him right under Hopkins.

[Harmsway]

I don't really get the list, either. And Javier Bardem's Anton Chigurh? Really? He was creepy and all, but has hardly become an enduring screen baddie and icon in a manner that places him in the top 10 baddies of all time list. If we're really considering recent folk, I think Daniel Day-Lewis' Daniel Plainview merits the position a bit more.

And where's Nurse Ratched from ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST? Or Bela Lugosi's Dracula? Or all the countless other screen icons that have dominated the screen? No... we get Alan Rickman from DIE HARD, Cathy Bates from MISERY, De Niro from THE UNTOUCHABLES, and Kevin Spacey from SEVEN. All are good to very, very good, mind you, but not "Top Ten" material.

[sark]

How was that set up? Who is flying the plane? Why would air traffic laws let that plane slip in there unnoticed or unchecked and how would it not leave a trail heading back to Wayne? Or does the plane have nothing to do with Wayne? Is it a random passenger or cargo plane that Batman tracked and timed to know exactly when and where it’d be?

I thought they explained much of this in the dialogue, re: contracting the plane, hiring the mercenary pilots, and giving Wayne a successful alibi. Not everything is wrapped up, mind you, but they did address at least half of your concerns.

They addressed the those three points, but none of the ones judochop put forward. I highly doubt the Chinese would be too keen on unidentified plans flying extremely low over Hong Kong. I imagine it would have been shot down in short order. We all saw how touchy the Chinese are about their airspace in 2001 (and that was before 9/11).

[Harmsway]

I highly doubt the Chinese would be too keen on unidentified plans flying extremely low over Hong Kong. I imagine it would have been shot down in short order. We all saw how touchy the Chinese are about their airspace in 2001 (and that was before 9/11).

Oh, this is all quite true. Don't know how he would have gotten around it, unless Wayne found some way to clear the plane. Wouldn't put it past him, especially when he's got the brilliant Lucius Fox who seems to be supernaturally gifted in his ability to help Wayne with everything and anything he needs, but I have a hard time thinking of how he could have done it.

But Judo was also asking questions about who the pilots were, etc. and so forth, and that was addressed in the film's narrative.

[Judo chop]

I just reminded myself of what may have been my least favorite part of TDK:

Fox’s disgust that Batman would dare to ask him to spy on so many people. Could we get a little more political? For the love of…

…have you SEEN what the Joker is doing, Fox? You have no problem getting Batman prepped for breaking and entering without a warrant, but now it’s like he’s asking you to turn your back on God or something, as if ‘thou shalt not invade thy neighbor’s privacy’ has always been your top commandment.

I can totally see why Fox would be hesitant to expand the power of the ‘Batcave’ to that level, and would warn Batman against going so far, but I really thought they pummeled the message into a creamy political pesto.

That’s as memory serves, at least. Am I over-exaggerating TDK’s lack of subtlety? I don’t remember the exact dialogue, but I do remember eye-rolling. aka:

[Harmsway]

Am I over-exaggerating TDK’s lack of subtlety?

I think so. Lucius Fox doesn't get that preachy during that scene, and his issues with the sonar machine are more about the long-term use of the thing and giving a single man that much power. Which are entirely justified, even given where Batman's already been. It's not like he refused to work with the machine in the short-term, failing to see the necessity of catching the Joker.

There's definitely a politicial undertone to the whole deal, and it's not particularly subtle, but they don't exactly do a song-and-dance about it, either. Their handling of the machine is ambiguous enough that it neither really comes out and condemns or okays anything relating to the current sphere. I mean, the machine does catch the Joker, after all. The Wall Street Journal even wrote that the film is a love-letter to right-wing conservatives (ala the use of such things is justified in the short term if we can take out the bad guys).

[Loomis]

Hong Kong is underused in the sense that what THE DARK KNIGHT uses it for doesn't take advantage of all it has to offer. But I don't think the film would have benefitted from any more Hong Kong usage; the whole Lau storyline is really a minor point in the overall thing. If anything, the Hong Kong sequence is the overdone tangent in the storyline and should have been excised or streamlined at the script stage.

True, but as I think I may have tried to explain in another post the other day, I see Hong Kong as a very natural location for Batman (since HK is pretty much the real life Gotham City - heck, The Narrows is even based on Kowloon, I believe). That's why I feel it was rather wasted. They could at least have shown Batman jumping about on those good old overhanging street signs.

I hope to see them take Batman to another foreign location for some of part III. Maybe London or somewhere else in Europe.

I think Tokyo would be another perfect Batman location. Batman versus the Yakuza, perhaps. Seoul would also be great.

[Harmsway]

Well, Loomis, they did intend to do more with the Hong Kong sequence. But there was some issue with what they were allowed to do that forced them to modify their plans, so what you get is a castrated version of what they originally wanted.

I think Tokyo would be another perfect Batman location. Batman versus the Yakuza, perhaps. Seoul would also be great.

Given that BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT both had excursions to Asia, I think it's time to visit a different continent.

[Loomis]

Then I humbly suggest Africa (glimpsed, I believe, in BATMAN BEGINS). Maybe our hero could go there to get some help from his former street crime comrades. At any rate, I say he should be kept out of Europe. Too Hammer Horror.

[kneelbeforezod]

IMO, far better than the pathetic Superman Returns, which I thought was a less charming version of the equally silly Superman '78, with a lazy and boring "twist" I saw coming from a mile away. Definitely better than the respectable and exciting but somewhat hollow Bourne Ultimatum, and about on par with Casino Royale (although I give the edge to CR for its more interesting lead and better action). Haven't seen Rocky 6.

Rocky Balboa is a charming enough film, but I find it pretty astonishing that anyone could mention it in the same breath as The Dark Knight or Casino Royale. Evidence, I think, of a teensy bit of bias on Loomis's part, despite his interesting arguments.

[Mike00spy]

As for "who wins."

A lot has been made of The Joker winning if Batman breaks his one rule to kill him.

The way I see it, it is very clear that every time the Joker survives, he wins

Why? He is able to keep going on with his killing spree and causing mayhem.

Spoiler

He was able to blow up the jail and kill some people there, almost blew up 2 boatloads of people, and would have killed some more people in a future Batman movie.

Oh, and how come no one mentions Batman breaking his one rule once again by

Spoiler

killing Two Face to save Gordon's son? Curious. (let's assume for the sake of argument that he did die here)

Edited by Mike00spy, 25 July 2008 - 08:44 PM.

[Harmsway]

The way I see it, it is very clear that every time the Joker survives, he wins

Why? He is able to keep going on with his killing spree and causing mayhem.

You're hardly the first to suggest it, but it's a slippery slope. Once Batman kills one criminal because they'll go on to do other criminal acts, he's put himself in a place to make that judgment. To become judge, jury, and executioner all in one, and I think that's why he's always abstained. Not to say that it hasn't been continually suggested by others inside of the DC comics Batman universe to Batman himself (there are those who would finish off the Joker), and Batman himself even takes it into consideration on occaision. But in the end, it's Batman's choice that he won't.

And honestly, if we're just looking at that specific moment in THE DARK KNIGHT, I think that choice makes sense. From Batman's perspective, if the Joker's alive, he's not necessarily going to kill anyone. He might have broken out of prison before, but they can make sure that he won't again. I mean, when you think about it, taking the Joker's life at that moment in THE DARK KNIGHT would have been largely unnecessary.

Oh, and how come no one mentions Batman breaking his one rule once again by

Spoiler

killing Two Face to save Gordon's son? Curious. (let's assume for the sake of argument that he did die here)

Well, actually there's been plenty of debate on the subject as to whether that actually qualifies (not here, but elsewhere). In the end, is Batman forced to break the rule? Well, is it really breaking the rule if he's given the choice of saving two people and saves the innocent one? I don't know. Any way you look at it, he's taken the rap for it, so he might as well have broken it.

[Loomis]

Gotta mention one mesmerising visual moment from THE DARK KNIGHT: the Joker is in (I think) a police car and there's this long, rather trippy shot with him sticking his head out of the window with the expression of a little kid enjoying a rollercoaster ride. It's a strange, haunting shot. It's things like this that convince me that TDK merits at least one more viewing (I suspect that it will only improve as repeated viewings allow it to "breathe" like fine wine).

[Harmsway]

Gotta mention one mesmerising visual moment from THE DARK KNIGHT: the Joker is in (I think) a police car and there's this long, rather trippy shot with him sticking his head out of the window with the expression of a little kid enjoying a rollercoaster ride. It's a strange, haunting shot.

Yeah, it's a very interesting and unexpected moment in a summer blockbuster (very arthouse, in its own way), and the way there's no sound at all makes it all the more striking. In a movie with so much bombast, an entirely silent moment speaks pretty loudly.

[Loomis]

It's things like this that convince me that TDK merits at least one more viewing (I suspect that it will only improve as repeated viewings allow it to "breathe" like fine wine).

I'll be interested to see your second viewing reaction.

Y'know, I'm having a kinda strange reaction to THE DARK KNIGHT. For a film I have a raft of criticisms of, in a franchise I'm not even a fan of, it's curious how its images have been bouncing around my brain, refusing to be dislodged, ever since I saw it.* It's almost something I'm beginning to like despite myself.

If this isn't a bad analogy, it's like I'm listening to a band whose singer and guitarist I find okay (but nothing more), and whose songs I consider to be a mixed bag, but who boast an absolutely breathtaking, virtuoso rhythm section of bassist and drummer. Hmmm.... that may be a rubbish analogy, unless, of course, you get what I'm trying to say.

*Okay, so I only saw it yesterday, but I think TDK does have a power that cannot be denied. One does not have to fall for the hype about it being the new GODFATHER II and all the rest of it to be able to acknowledge that it is, in many ways, something special and certainly a fine achievement on the part of Nolan and all his colleagues.

[Andrew]

One does not have to fall for the hype about it being the new GODFATHER II and all the rest of it to be able to acknowledge that it is, in many ways, something special and certainly a fine achievement on the part of Nolan and all his colleagues.

I don't believe that many are saying it's the new GODFATHER II but instead THE GODFATHER II equivalent of comic book movies. There's a big difference.

I'm glad that you somewhat enjoyed it, even if you did have some major problems with it, Loomis. I think your experience will improve on your second viewing.

[Vauxhall]

Just back from seeing it, and while the movie doesn't live up to all of the hype surrounding it, it certainly is a fantastic piece of entertainment and film-making. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I'm going to let it sink in a little further before creating a full review, but in my opinion, THE DARK KNIGHT has without question reinvented the very concept of comic book movies. It is the greatest of its kind. I credit the movie for ensuring that never again will our cinema screens be blighted with monstrosities such as BATMAN FOREVER and BATMAN & ROBIN. The bar has been raised higher than ever before, and at the moment, I can't even conceive how it could be bettered.

[Gobi-1]

Well, Loomis, they did intend to do more with the Hong Kong sequence. But there was some issue with what they were allowed to do that forced them to modify their plans, so what you get is a castrated version of what they originally wanted.

I think Tokyo would be another perfect Batman location. Batman versus the Yakuza, perhaps. Seoul would also be great.

Given that BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT both had excursions to Asia, I think it's time to visit a different continent.

I'd really like to see Batman go to London.

[Johnboy007]

I just got back from seeing this on the nearby IMAX screen... wow.

This was a whole hell of a lot of fun. More than a week has passed and all of the screenings at my theatre are selling out. I got there 45 minutes early and it was still impossible to get decent seats. Amazing.

I'll try and post something more substantive later when the migraine I got from sitting in the second row wears off. In short: Ledger is hysterical, Gyllenhaal takes over nicely from Katie Holmes, and Eckhart steals the show. For all the hype surrounding Heath Ledger, I'd argue Aaron Eckhart is the best part of this movie. Christian Bale seemed a little lost in all of this to me. He's great as Bruce Wayne, but that scruffy, bulldog Batman voice is almost laughable... almost like Brosnan's hammy tough guy voice.

In all, the best superhero/comic book movie I have seen. Can someone get Sam Raimi and all of the folks behind Spider-man to watch this movie? I hope it will teach them how to create something "intelligent" and enjoyable without being overbearing, pretentious, and lame. Marvel can toss up Hulk, Iron Man, and everything else they have, but they'll never come close to Batman.

[Loomis]

Leonard Maltin on THE DARK KNIGHT:

I guess I take movies too seriously; I always have. I cry easily and wince at any explosive action. As for violence and horror, my wife’s arm is still black and blue from my grabbing her repeatedly during the last scary movie we saw.

This is why I have no taste for the current run of slasher/torture movies. While young people treat them as a kind of joke, I can’t remain aloof enough to enjoy them. Yes, I know the difference between cartoonish or outlandish violence—as practiced by Quentin Tarantino in Kill Bill, for instance—and the kind that’s supposed to hurt. But when a movie asks me to become emotionally involved and then plays with my feelings, I have problems.

That’s why I didn’t enjoy The Dark Knight. I was especially disappointed because I thought Christopher Nolan did such a fine job with Batman Begins, which recreated the caped crusader’s origins with a deft mixture of drama, fantasy, and humor. The Dark Knight is unrelentingly dark; the only moments of lightness are provided—all too briefly—by Michael Caine as Alfred the butler.

The centerpiece of the film is Heath Ledger’s extraordinary performance as The Joker. While I appreciated his work as an actor, the character he portrays is so thoroughly sick and twisted that I could derive no pleasure from watching him. (I’m sure the awareness of his untimely death hovered in my consciousness, as well.) When this famous character’s antics cease to be portrayed in comic-book terms and become tangibly, frighteningly real, the playing field has clearly changed.

It’s all a matter of tone, the single most crucial element in a film that tries to straddle the juvenile world of superhero storytelling and a more challenging, adult brand of drama. It seems that Nolan and his writing collaborators (David S. Goyer and his brother Jonathan Nolan) want to make a statement about the post-9/11 world. The script drives home the belief that one should never negotiate with terrorists, a fateful reminder of contemporary geopolitics...but how does one reconcile that somber worldview with the goal of creating entertainment?

Nolan pulled it off in his previous Batman film, as Sam Raimi did in Spider-man 2, but it’s a mighty challenge. All I know is that I didn’t have any fun at all watching the most anticipated film of the summer.

http://www.leonardmaltin.com/

Reminds me of his reaction (after praising THE BOURNE IDENTITY to the skies) to THE BOURNE SUPREMACY, which he also felt was too dark and doomladen, and indeed his reaction to INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM. Guess THE DARK KNIGHT will get a ** rating, **1/2 at most, in his Movie Guide (probably next summer's edition, since I imagine it missed the deadline for the upcoming 2009 edition).

I think he's too harsh on the film, though. He doesn't give it any props for its visuals, and he's completely wrong that Caine is solely responsible for its moments of fun. Also, that THE DARK KNIGHT should be, well, dark is surely kinda the whole point.

[Doctor No]

Saw TDK earlier this week and all I can say is, WOW, it lived up to my very high expectations. TDK is definitely one of my favorite movies now. The experience was made even better because I got to see the QOS trailer along with it.


Just a quick thought. Leonard Maltin sounds completely ridiculous. Guess he misses The Technicolor Batman & Robin Dreamcoat. Oh nevermind he liked Mamma Mia. CASE CLOSED.

Edited by Doctor No, 26 July 2008 - 12:44 PM.

[Loomis]

Saw TDK earlier this week and all I can say is, WOW, it lived up to my very high expectations. TDK is definitely one of my favorite movies now. The experience was made even better because I got to see the QOS trailer along with it.


Just a quick thought. Leonard Maltin sounds completely ridiculous. Guess he misses The Technicolor Batman & Robin Dreamcoat. Oh nevermind he liked Mamma Mia. CASE CLOSED.

He seems pretty fickle when it comes to franchises, an exception being Bond, which he almost always praises. He loved BOURNE IDENTITY and dissed SUPREMACY, yet last year on his website praised ULTIMATUM (a film more similar to SUPREMACY than IDENTITY).

[Johnboy007]

He doesn't seem to get that the Joker's supposed to be a complete psychopath does he?

[Mercator]

What a load of BS Leonard Matlin writted. Just like a lot of these critik. He has no understanding of filme.

[dodge]

The Joker...a sly variation on Mark Twain's Man That Corrupted Hadleyburg?

[bond 16.05.72]

Saw it yesterday at the IMAX, WOW. I completely agree when some are saying it stays with you and you can't get it out of your head. One of the part of Nolan's genius and much to the delight of Warner's, is that like many others I will definitely have to catch this again and maybe once more after that.

The Imax sequences were incredible and the opening bank robbery is very Heat like.

Anyone who loves the Burton films and think they are their ideal Batman should stay away this is a dark intelligent movie well plotted and brilliantly executed, not meandering directionless and lacklustre.

Yes Heath was awesome but Bale was fantastic, I didn't have a problem with Batman's voice and thought he raised his game considerably. Eckhart was also very good and was believable as both the White Knight & Two Face. I have to say Oldman was just superb and having been shackled with a smallish role and some lame lines before, his character was given much more to do and boy did he bring his game, all supporting cast were great as well, Caine, Freeman & Gyllenhall was much better than Holmes.