2081 replies to this topic

[DamnCoffee]

What's their excuse for letting things sag off after a rivetting 2h 5mins ?

Well, as I've said before, I don't think they did.

Agreed. I thought the last half of the movie was quite strong. The only thing I had a slight problem with was the Joker dressing as a nurse, but Ledger handled it well. I'd much rather it was a Doctor though.

[Andrew]

Does anybody have access to Oldman's final dialogue of the film? What he says to his son (or audience, rather) as Batman runs away? I missed half of it because the music and the sound effects were over emphasized and drowned him out.

"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight."

That really was perhaps one of the most epic closing monologues I've ever heard. I'm usually not a fan of including the title in the film somehow but with this instance it didn't come off as hammered in like some other films (I'm looking at you 007 films ). I remember when Nolan said the title had a lot to do with the story I wasn't really sure what he meant by that but after seeing the film, it's perfect.

Oh, and Harmsway has been defending the climax to death and I agree completely so I commend him for sticking up for the film.

That being said, I actually prefer the second half of the film to the first. I LOVE the whole film but where it really starts to come together for me is when The Joker is arrested.

What's their excuse for letting things sag off after a rivetting 2h 5mins ?

Well, as I've said before, I don't think they did.

Agreed. I thought the last half of the movie was quite strong. The only thing I had a slight problem with was the Joker dressing as a nurse, but Ledger handled it well. I'd much rather it was a Doctor though.

I thought the nurse was perfect...it was so...Joker. It just wouldn't have the same effect if he was dressed as a doctor.

[Judo chop]

Oh, and Harmsway has been defending the climax to death and I agree completely so I commend him for sticking up for the film.

"Because he's the hero CBn deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight."

[DamnCoffee]

Everyone applauded at Heath's first scene.

When I came out of the film I actually felt really sad because of Ledger. I was keep thinking that this is the last movie he made before he died. I actually had a VERY slight tear when the 'In Memory' thing came up at the end.

I think he nailed the Joker perfectly though. He was the highlight of the movie for me

[Judo chop]

I don't know precisely why it's written that way. My guess is that Gordon's drawing the distinction between being a true hero and being a hero in the public eye. In truth, he's a real hero - he's the noble character that Gotham should adore - but in his public role, he's not a hero at all.

Looking at it again:

"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight."

To me it looks like Gordon’s backtracked on this original thought. In the first sentence he calls Batman a hero, and then states that the type of hero he is needs to change, which basically summarizes the decision made in his conversation with Batman a few moments earlier.

Then, in the final sentence, it looks as if he’s decided that ‘hero’ isn’t really the appropriate term for Batman and he clarifies. I think we’re to read “because” as “actually”.
As in: “Actually, he’s not a 'hero' at all. He’s <more like> a guardian… a protector. A knight.”

A little ambiguous, and I wish that 2nd 'because' wasn't there, but I buy it. Anyone else?

[Vauxhall]

When I came out of the film I actually felt really sad because of Ledger. I was keep thinking that this is the last movie he made before he died. I actually had a VERY slight tear when the 'In Memory' thing came up at the end.

Glad you enjoyed the movie. I wonder if Ledger's actual final performance in THE IMAGINARIUM OF DOCTOR PARNASSUS will gain the same reception from the cinema audiences though... I doubt it somehow.

[Harmsway]

Oh, and Harmsway has been defending the climax to death and I agree completely so I commend him for sticking up for the film.

"Because he's the hero CBn deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight."

Nice.

[Cruiserweight]

Something i have a question about...?

Spoiler

How can Batman take a gun shot & the fall but survive & yet Two Face takes the same fall minus the gun shot wound Batman is suffering from & it kills him?

[Harmsway]

Something i have a question about...?

Spoiler

How can Batman take a gun shot & the fall but survive & yet Two Face takes the same fall minus the gun shot wound Batman is suffering from & it kills him?

Spoiler

Batman's fall is broken on the way down, and he's wearing armor. Two-Face just had a straight dive with no protection.

[Andrew]

Something i have a question about...?

Spoiler

How can Batman take a gun shot & the fall but survive & yet Two Face takes the same fall minus the gun shot wound Batman is suffering from & it kills him?

Spoiler

They're two different people; the conditions of their fall and they bodies could have been completely different. Batman's momentum was also slowed down and he's wearing a suit of armor.

EDIT: Looks like I was beat to the punch...

[Loomis]

Here's a question:

Spoiler

The ending of THE DARK KNIGHT makes a big deal about Batman becoming a fugitive from the law, implying that at the start of BATMAN BEGINS 3 he'll be on the run like Jason Bourne. But since Gordon admits earlier in TDK that the police's policy is to arrest Batman on sight, how exactly has anything changed for our hero? How is he all of a sudden more of an outlaw than he was already?

Seems to me a big song and dance about the status quo.

[Harmsway]

Here's a question:

Spoiler

The ending of THE DARK KNIGHT makes a big deal about Batman becoming a fugitive from the law, implying that at the start of BATMAN BEGINS 3 he'll be on the run like Jason Bourne. But since Gordon admits earlier in TDK that the police's policy is to arrest Batman on sight, how exactly has anything changed for our hero? How is he all of a sudden more of an outlaw than he was already?

Spoiler

It has less to do with his status as an outlaw and more to do with what it does to his crusade. He essentially tarnishes his position as a symbol of justice and his crusade to return to law to save Harvey Dent's status as a symbol. The public, who were previously relatively accepting of Batman, can no longer hold him in any high regard; to all appearances, he's as dangerous as the folks he locks up.

Nevermind that it does take his "outlaw" status to another level. Batman was always an officially unsanctioned vigilante, but the police were willing to turn a blind eye and everybody knew it. Now no-one can turn a blind eye and dance around the rules. Hence the very public breaking of the bat-signal on Gordon's part, with news cameras and all. The police are forced to hunt him.

[freemo]

I thought the ferry stuff was fine. It played out alright, and of course the outcomes symbolic significance is huge. Batman thinks he's won "the battle for the soul of Gotham", and then... the Joker reveals what he did to Harvey. What a kick in the nuts! Perfect. I don't see how it could play out any better.

What absolutely, positively has to go, are the repeated comments on the ‘good’ boat in the vein of “they HAD their chance!” Honestly. That makes me gag. Not because it’s morally foul, but because it’s stupid.

Yeah, I didn't like that either. Doesn't give me much sympathy for the "good" boat, in terms of fearing for them or even rooting for them to survive. But it does seem realistic under that situation though, people trying to morally rationalize their self interest. I can definitely picture it.

[sharpshooter]

The only thing I had a slight problem with was the Joker dressing as a nurse, but Ledger handled it well. I'd much rather it was a Doctor though.

Where's the fun in that? A doctor is boring, a nurse is a lot better if you ask me.

[Righty007]

What's their excuse for letting things sag off after a rivetting 2h 5mins ?

Well, as I've said before, I don't think they did.

Agreed. I thought the last half of the movie was quite strong. The only thing I had a slight problem with was the Joker dressing as a nurse, but Ledger handled it well. I'd much rather it was a Doctor though.

He's called THE JOKER for a reason. Dressing up as a doctor would have been logical perhaps but nothing THE JOKER does is logical.

[Publius]

but the GODFATHER II of superhero movies? Come on. I don't think it's even as good as SUPERMAN RETURNS. Neither does it approach the best of recent franchise fare: THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM, CASINO ROYALE and ROCKY BALBOA.

IMO, far better than the pathetic Superman Returns, which I thought was a less charming version of the equally silly Superman '78, with a lazy and boring "twist" I saw coming from a mile away. Definitely better than the respectable and exciting but somewhat hollow Bourne Ultimatum, and about on par with Casino Royale (although I give the edge to CR for its more interesting lead and better action). Haven't seen Rocky 6.

As for the ferry scene… the problem is not that a scene tanked. The problem is that a PIVOTAL scene tanked. THIS is the moment where the Joker’s reason for unreason unravels. This is where the film is headed. It’s to be one of the great messages we’re to take from it. Much of the weight of the entire film, I think, rests upon the outcome of this moment. It’s a really bad time for an ‘oops’.

It would have been perfect for a shorter movie (or one which is less awesome everywhere else), but I agree that it's not strong enough to be the climax of a 2.5 hour epic, although I think the fantastic dialogue ("we're destined to do this forever!") and reveal of Joker's ultimate victory (destroying Dent) followed by the great confrontation with Gordon and Two-Face more than make up for any shortcomings there.

[Publius]

As for the ferry sequence, some suspense would have worked wonders.

Like Harmsway, it worked for me, albeit only partially. I will admit that I thought the two possibilities were that the good ferry would activate the detonator and blow up the bad ferry, or the bad ferry would activate the detonator and blow themselves up (Joker had already pulled a switcheroo before). I sincerely doubted that the good ferry was going to blow up.

And it would still be just one more defeat in a film full of them.

Hey, that never hurt The Empire Strikes Back.

But I guess the point of the ferry dilema was to establish that most people aren't nihilistic like the Joker...

Which I actually think is true in the real world. People have an amazing reluctance to kill. That's why I like that someone on the good ferry pointed out that they hadn't been blown up yet either. However, I do think many a good person would find it morally acceptable to blow up the other ferry just before the stroke of midnight, given Joker's ultimatum.

[sharpshooter]

Here's two studio promo shots of Ledger as The Joker I didn't know existed. There's also one of Bale's Batman, and some other stills.

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[Publius]

Something i have a question about...?

Spoiler

How can Batman take a gun shot & the fall but survive & yet Two Face takes the same fall minus the gun shot wound Batman is suffering from & it kills him?

Spoiler

There's nothing in the movie itself to indicate that Two-Face is dead. Not saying this because I'm a fanboy who wants him back, but because I think Nolan deliberately left his fate vague. We see Gordon speaking at a service for him, but that could just be part cover (if he's not dead, they'd rather say he died and keep him at Arkham, not a stretch considering he's gone off the deep end), part truth (the fact that Dent the white knight is no more).

Sure, the fall logically should have killed him. But so should have that car accident. And Gordon had already survived a bullet to the chest and was pronounced dead in-movie. Nolan is just leaving his options open. If he wanted him to be clearly dead, he'd have shown a casket.

[sharpshooter]

Spoiler

Perhaps the scene with Batman dropping Maroni from a height was a foreshadowing? Maroni taunts Batman by saying from this height it would not kill, to which Batman replies that's what he's counting on.

[Publius]

Spoiler

Perhaps the scene with Batman dropping Maroni from a height was a foreshadowing? Maroni taunts Batman by saying from this height it would not kill, to which Batman replies that's what he's counting on.

Yeah, I think that only supports the possibility that, at the very least, what happened to him is ambiguous.

[DamnCoffee]

Here's two studio promo shots of Ledger as The Joker I didn't know existed. There's also one of Bale's Batman, and some other stills.

Thanks for the pics Sharpshooter! The first two are pure Joker! Ledger is amazing.

Could anyone tell me what the homages to Dr. No and From Russia With Love were? I read somewhere that there were some.

Oh and by the way did anyone think that the scene on the balcony between Dawes and Wayne gave off a Casino Royale vibe!

[Vauxhall]

Could anyone tell me what the homages to Dr. No and From Russia With Love were? I read somewhere that there were some.

I haven't seen THE DARK KNIGHT yet (going this evening) but I believe that the Joker has a shoe similar to Rosa Klebb's... I read tht the other Bond homage is to THUNDERBALL, but don't know what it is.

[DamnCoffee]

Ahh yes! The Klebb shoe, now I see. The thunderball homage is Batman and Lau getting taken by the helicopter in Hong Kong.

[HildebrandRarity]

Ahh yes! The Klebb shoe, now I see. The thunderball homage is Batman and Lau getting taken by the helicopter in Hong Kong.

Actually the extraction method in Hong Kong is via an airplane a la Thunderball final scene...air baloon carrying up the rope which gets picked up by the contracting fork in airplane's nose.

[Loomis]

Some beautiful establishing shots in this film, though, I'll give it that. The Hong Kong skyline and so on.

Quite right. The visuals are the biggest area of improvement from BEGINS to THE DARK KNIGHT, if you ask me.

Since seeing THE DARK KNIGHT yesterday, I've been unable to dislodge many of its beautiful visuals from my head. I have many gripes with TDK (e.g. an insufficiently hard edge, a script that's all over the show, the lack of any sense that Batman/Bruce is ever in danger or that he questions himself a la Craig in CASINO ROYALE, little impact to the death of one of the main characters, action sequences that aren't remotely as exciting as they should be, a final reel that dies on its , etc., etc.), but I really can't wait to see this movie in IMAX.

I wish they'd used Hong Kong more, though - Batman just shoots in and out (in a sequence that essentially replicates the Shanghai skyscraper assault in M:I-III, adding a camp flourish at the end). I know we can all rewrite these things from our armchairs, but I think the filmmakers missed a trick to have fun with Batman in a different cultural context, as well as, of course, to bring in more "local colour" and "travelogue".

Here's one of the more worthwhile reviews I've read of TDK. I don't share the author's love of the film, but she does make some very interesting points:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37515

[DamnCoffee]

Ahh yes! The Klebb shoe, now I see. The thunderball homage is Batman and Lau getting taken by the helicopter in Hong Kong.

Actually the extraction method in Hong Kong is via an airplane a la Thunderball final scene...air baloon carrying up the rope which gets picked up by the contracting fork in airplane's nose.

Yes... That's what I meant.

[Harmsway]

I wish they'd used Hong Kong more, though - Batman just shoots in and out (in a sequence that essentially replicates the Shanghai skycraper assault in M:I-III, adding a camp flourish at the end). I know we can all rewrite these things from our armchairs, but I think the filmmakers missed a trick to have fun with Batman in a different cultural context.

Hong Kong is underused in the sense that what THE DARK KNIGHT uses it for doesn't take advantage of all it has to offer. But I don't think the film would have benefitted from any more Hong Kong usage; the whole Lau storyline is really a minor point in the overall thing. If anything, the Hong Kong sequence is the overdone tangent in the storyline and should have been excised or streamlined at the script stage. That said, I think the sequence itself is pretty thrilling, beautifully shot, and I always love to see Batman in foreign locales.

I hope to see them take Batman to another foreign location for some of part III. Maybe London or somewhere else in Europe.

[BoogieBond]

Saw it yesterday and enjoyed it.
It does pose questions, with the Joker having no rules. The corruption of Dent etc. And thought the action sequences were great, special mention as above to the Hong Kong sequence.
It is overall very dark and somewhat sadistic and rough for a superhero film, but the consequences for Batman and his actions, the development of the characters in general, are really good, and needless to say, its a quality film. Thought the downbeat ending was a little unsatisfying. Liked the CR ending far more.
Still prefer Batman begins though

[DamnCoffee]

Did anyone else notice that the film didn't have a title card until the end!