2081 replies to this topic

[sharpshooter]

I am REALLY excited. I am going to see this in about 4hours time. I cannot wait, I usually only get this excited over a Bond movie (or Indiana Jones 4)

With that long to go, I was at the head of the line, tense and Daltonesque. I was only calm once the film began. Luckily the packed theatre didn't make a sound. They, like me, were mesmerised by what they were seeing. It's a great experience. You'll love it.

[Safari Suit]

A Batman film where Bruce Wayne hardly ever goes out as Batman. You might be on to something here. How about a Superman film where he doesn't wear the blue suit and red cape and he can't fly.

Coincidentally, producer Jon Peters insisted that Kevin Smith include those very things while working on the aborted Superman Lives project.

I think that says a lot about Jon Peters, doesn't it. Hairdressers should not become producers!!

True; it also had Superman fighting polar bears, a giant mechanical spider, and Braniac being paired up with a gay robot sidekick (I'm not kidding)!

The giant mechanical spider idea was actually used in the animated film Superman: Doomsday. Kevin Smith even has a (voice-over only obviously) cameo.

[DamnCoffee]

I am going to see it now.

I am soooo excited.

[sharpshooter]

Here's a nice four page article on the VFX seen in the film.

http://vfxworld.com/...&id=3705&page=1

[Loomis]

Just got back from THE DARK KNIGHT. My initial thoughts:

For the most part, it's an elegant, intelligent and absorbing film with an epic feel, fine performances (mostly) and some gorgeous visuals. Definitely one to see on the big screen, and I may well check out THE IMAX EXPERIENCE.

And never did I imagine that the day would come when I'd sit through - of all things - a Batman flick and find myself not only caring (well, somewhat) about the characters but wanting to know more about them.

However, TDK has its share of flaws. It's overlong and, especially towards the end, overwrought. My heart sank when they introduced the line about the hero Gotham needs but doesn't deserve, because I knew they'd beat it to death like that ballsaching mantra in BATMAN BEGINS about falling so we can learn to get up again. Yes, folks, just like BEGINS, TDK eventually drowns in its own po-faced self-importance (except, of course, when it's leaning on that good old standby of wisecracking cops ).

Another thing it has in common with BEGINS is that its first half is so much stronger than its second - TDK takes its sweet time lumbering to an underwhelming conclusion, although its action (which rather often resembles that in MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE III, albeit put together much better) is at least not nearly as dull as that of its predecessor. That said, there's precious little action here that's truly eye-popping and edge-of-seat.

(And I feel compelled to ask: why not? Like INDY 4, TDK drops the ball on what ought to have been a slam dunk.)

Bale, Caine, Freeman and Gyllenhaal are good (Bale is good as Wayne, that is - as Batman, well, he's merely another shlub in a batsuit), although I felt Oldman hammed it up a bit. Ledger is fine, although I'd hardly call his performance something extraoardinary, and to my mind it wasn't especially different to Nicholson's, not that that matters. But his acting doesn't reinvent the wheel, and don't let anybody tell you different.

Best performance? Eckhart, by a country mile (whatever that is). In fact, he carries the film, being easily the most compelling character so far in this series.

Is TDK superior to BEGINS? I don't know. At its best, it's certainly far more exciting, but then again BEGINS may hang together slightly better.

Is it better than CASINO ROYALE? Nope, not nearly. Go to CR for some truly great characterisation, drama and a general sense of a good (and worthwhile) story well told. I found the narrative of TDK confusing in places, and it all just peters out into an orgy of chest-beating.

I'm giving it a somewhat generous 7 out of 10. No. Make it 6.5.

[Harmsway]

Glad you saw it Loomis. I figured you'd end up about where you are, though I expected you to like it a bit more than you did. But that's how it goes.

Go to CR for some truly great characterisation, drama and a general sense of a good (and worthwhile) story well told.

Only on a James Bond message board would you find a comment like this.

[Loomis]

Yep. Only on a Bond board. Just you keep telling yourself that.

BTW, Harms, didn't you say to me a while back that TDK featured a sequence that would be appreciated by Bond fans? I was looking out for it but I guess it went over my head.

[Harmsway]

Yep. Only on a Bond board. Just you keep telling yourself that.

I don't have to. In my experience, it's been very true. The general attitude towards CASINO ROYALE I've found on the rest of the non-Bond internet and in the public is that it was "the best since GOLDENEYE." While, undoubtedly, they mean a bit more than that, it's faint praise indeed. And despite CASINO ROYALE's initial critical splash (which, while 95% percent positive, wasn't comprised of raves), I haven't seen the critical circle referring to it since in such an immensely positive light.

But maybe my reading of the general attitude towards CASINO ROYALE is exceedingly different that yours, being on this side of the pond. We in the USA, as has been established, have a very different view of Bond than you Brits. And probably a very different view of CASINO ROYALE.

BTW, Harms, didn't you say to me a while back that TDK featured a sequence that would be appreciated by Bond fans? I was looking out for it but I guess it went over my head.

There are two. The Joker has a shoe like Rosa Klebb's, and Batman uses the THUNDERBALL method of extraction in Hong Kong.

[sharpshooter]

I won't get stuck into your opinions, Loomis. I'll respect them. You'd probably know where I stand with this film, anyway.

when it's leaning on that good old standby of wisecracking cops ).

I'll give you that. I loathed that stuff during the Begins tumbler chase, it tarnished the scene in my opinion. In TDK it is toned down, but still evident. I suppose they didn't want it to be total gloom, but it does stick out.

[Harmsway]

What wisecracking cops were there in THE DARK KNIGHT? I recall cops making comments during the chase, but nothing I'd call a wisecrack.

[sharpshooter]

I recall cops making comments during the chase, but nothing I'd call a wisecrack.

Indeed, it is toned down from the level seen in Begins. It is evident in these small comments they make, such as when the helicopter is pulled down. It didn't bother me that much, but I'd still prefer it not to be there. It is a very minor criticism. More like a nitpick, basically the only I have given, and that's a testament to how good the film is.

[Harmsway]

I recall cops making comments during the chase, but nothing I'd call a wisecrack.

Indeed, it is toned down from the level seen in Begins. It is evident in these small comments they make, such as when the helicopter is pulled down.

And what was wrong with those comments? I thought they were fine. What are folks gonna say when something like that happens?

[sharpshooter]

I recall cops making comments during the chase, but nothing I'd call a wisecrack.

Indeed, it is toned down from the level seen in Begins. It is evident in these small comments they make, such as when the helicopter is pulled down.

And what was wrong with those comments? I thought they were fine. What are folks gonna say when something like that happens?

Not sure. Maybe I was expecting a more dramatic reaction from them.

[Publius]

Another thing it has in common with BEGINS is that its first half is so much stronger than its second

It wasn't as clear-cut for me. A lot of the first half stuff was great (the opening bank heist, Hong Kong, Dent interrogating one of Joker's thugs), but the film really took off for me when they finally apprehended Joker. Oddly enough, it was then that he started becoming most chilling, when he seemed most in control. And the Joker in control is a very frightening concept.

Best performance? Eckhart, by a country mile (whatever that is). In fact, he carries the film, being easily the most compelling character so far in this series.

I couldn't agree more. It's a shame he's being overshadowed by Ledger. I cared about Dent, I liked him despite his car salesman image, and I was fascinated by his slow deterioration (signs of which were present as early as his dinner with Rachel, or even the moment he walked into the courtroom at the beginning).

We in the USA, as has been established, have a very different view of Bond than you Brits.

I think it's as simple as that. Remember, one of the few major markets where CR wasn't #1 and shattering records was America. Two years ago, CR made $427 million outside of the US. This year, freaking Indy 4 made just $430 million. It's here that CR still gets the most flak and the fewest accolades, rightly or wrongly.

Indeed, it is toned down from the level seen in Begins. It is evident in these small comments they make, such as when the helicopter is pulled down. It didn't bother me that much, but I'd still prefer it not to be there. It is a very minor criticism, and if it is the only I give, it is a testament to the film.

I think it's okay in small doses, and if done well. For example, the line "he's driving a black... tank?" was one of my favorites in Begins. "At least tell me what it looks like... nevermind." and "He's flying ON rooftops!" not so much.

[Loomis]

Now that I no longer have to avoid spoilers I'm reading some of the recent posts in this thread and find myself in agreement with many of Judo chop's criticisms.

I wish TDK had a harder edge, but it looks as though the filmmakers were constrained by the ratings system. Too bad. Welcome to this summer's LIVE FREE OR DIE (NOT PARTICULARLY) HARD.

To quote Karl in DIE HARD: I. Want. Blood. I mean, Wayne and Rachel getting not a scratch (and Rachel coming out with a quip) after their fall from the skyscraper. Sorry. If you want to impress me, Mr Nolan, you're gonna have to do a lot better than that.

There's precious little realism on show here. And, yes, the ferries scene is a damp squib.

[Harmsway]

I thought THE DARK KNIGHT was more than hard enough. It could have gone into R territory if it wanted to, and it would have felt appropriate (especially with the Joker character), but I wasn't longing for any more extreme violence. I was sufficiently shocked and emotionally wiped by the content inside THE DARK KNIGHT to do without it.

[Joyce Carrington]

Just saw it this morning. Enjoyed it but it didn't blow me away. Cool action, good acting (but IMHO Ledger's not as Oscar-worthy as I was led on to believe). However, the story is a bit too long and mostly too complex (can't believe I'm naming this as a con). And I fear it keeps the ultimate message of the film from coming across as clearly or as powerfully as it could. But, I do love the dark atmosphere of the film. Spiderman's for kids. This, as we say in Holland, is a different kind of cookie.

[Loomis]

Salon.com's Stephanie Zacharek feels that Nolan "gives us enough multilayered subplots to at least fool us into thinking this is a work of intellectual and moral complexity. But as a piece of visual storytelling, from shot to shot, THE DARK KNIGHT is a mess. Characters disappear from one locale and show up inexplicably in another, thanks to the magic of editing. At one point, we learn two characters have been abducted, but Nolan doesn't bother to show us who did it or how. (Later, he explains the 'who did it' with dialogue -- the lazy way.) At the end, a major character is left hanging, literally, as we are figuratively. If this is genius, give me hackery."

Agreed with all that, and also with Zacharek's view of TDK as "just more pretentious poot, dumped onto the screen in a style that pretends to be fresh and energetic but is really only semicoherent".

[Harmsway]

"At one point, we learn two characters have been abducted, but Nolan doesn't bother to show us who did it or how."

I don't get the issue on this point. The event wasn't shown so that we wouldn't know they'd were abducted, and their abductors weren't shown so that their identities would be a mystery. How is that an oversight on Nolan's part?

[Judo chop]

its first half is so much stronger than its second - TDK takes its sweet time lumbering to an underwhelming conclusion

The film builds great potential, with the Joker embodying chaos like most film villains only dream to. (Notice that he tells two entirely different stories about how he got his scars. He's a whackjob for the sake of being a whackjob alone!) A great dilemma is constructed, but then Nolan poops down his pants when it comes time to deliver the final lessons. I think it's probably unfair to split it 'first half/second half'. For me, it's only the final quarter that goes south.

I really need and want to see it again to confirm, but I'm afraid that despite exhibiting some very fine mechanics, where TDK really needed to throw knock-out punches it instead throws glancing blows (Two-Face) and sometimes illegal shots to the kidneys (the ferry incident).

And I return agreement to you, Loomis. I do not understand why we must ask “and why not?” He was sooo close… just a little more time spent on the ferry, and a little more time strengthening the dialogue over the last 20-25 minutes, and you just might have a film worth all the hubbub that it’s currently getting, which would be saying a whole heckofalot.

[Loomis]

(ETA: In response to Harmsway)

The way you explain it it isn't one, but the way it plays out onscreen seems unsatisfying, McGuffinish and lazy-quick-fixish. I too felt that characters appeared, disappeared and switched locations at random and that the narrative was lumpy and chaotic.

I'm not as anti-THE DARK KNIGHT as I'm probably coming across, but I'm mystified by its rave reviews. I did quite enjoy it, on the whole, and in places I was very impressed (e.g. the dinner scene with Wayne, Rachel and Dent, which is by far the best moment in the flick).... but the GODFATHER II of superhero movies? Come on. I don't think it's even as good as SUPERMAN RETURNS. Neither does it approach the best of recent franchise fare: THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM, CASINO ROYALE and ROCKY BALBOA.

I mean, some people are calling TDK one of the best films of all time! I just....

Maybe I need another viewing. And indeed I'd quite like another one, which means that I hardly hate this flick. But the hype is simply out of control.

[Judo chop]

Agreed.

Dinner scene =

Hype =

Need another viewing? =

[Harmsway]

He was sooo close… just a little more time spent on the ferry, and a little more time strengthening the dialogue over the last 20-25 minutes, and you just might have a film worth all the hubbub that it’s currently getting, which would be saying a whole heckofalot.

Why more time spent on the ferry? I've seen the film twice, and I think the ferry scene comes very close to dragging.

I did quite enjoy it, on the whole, and in places I was very impressed (e.g. the dinner scene with Wayne, Rachel and Dent, which is by far the best moment in the flick).... but the GODFATHER II of superhero movies? Come on.
I don't think it's even as good as SUPERMAN RETURNS. Neither does it approach the best of recent franchise fare: THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM, CASINO ROYALE and ROCKY BALBOA.

I think it outdoes all of the above (aside from GODFATHER II, which is practically untouchable), and far excels any superhero film to date, from SUPERMAN '78 onwards. This film is very close to ending up in my top 10 favorites.

But hey, not everbody can like these big phenomenon films. In fact, history has showed us that the bigger the hype around a film is, the more likely there is to be a substantial group of folks who don't think it's all that.

And funnily enough, I thought the Dent/Dawes/Wayne dinner scene was just okay.

[HildebrandRarity]

It feels as if The Dark Knight is not getting a 10 or an A+ on CBn because a fair number of members here have a very discerning eye when it comes of films or the cinema and it takes a lot to get 10s...or even 9.5s.

The Dark Knight has ridden a high wave of anticipation but suffers from from being overhyped, i'm afraid...especially after Ledger's fatal accidental overdose. It suffers from the promise of something truly outstanding and bold...but doesn't fully deliver on that promise.

It's a damn good piece of big screen entertainment. Shocking too (a positive, i.m.o.). It's more than worthy of more than one trip to the movie theatre.

But perhaps the weight of it's flaws, especially in the final 'act', has knocked it down for those with a more discerning eye.

How will passage of time...and the decline of hype that will inevitably come...treat The Dark Knight? Will it keep its spot on things like imbd or imdb or ibmd lists? I very much doubt it. It aint Citizen Kane but it's a lot better than 85 to 90 percent of 'stuff' released in movie houses the last few years.

[Judo chop]

He was sooo close… just a little more time spent on the ferry, and a little more time strengthening the dialogue over the last 20-25 minutes, and you just might have a film worth all the hubbub that it’s currently getting, which would be saying a whole heckofalot.

Why more time spent on the ferry? I've seen the film twice, and I think the ferry scene comes very close to dragging.

No, I meant more of Nolan's time spent on making it something emotionally substantial (and quite possibly shorter in terms of screen time). The whole sequence felt like it was ripped out of The B-Director's Tome of Canned Scenes. It felt like no thought was put into it. Like he directed it while shaving, etc...

And funnily enough, I thought the Dent/Dawes/Wayne dinner scene was just okay.

I thought it was quite Bondian with the subtle witty jabs, and all of the actors underplayed it perfectly, showing wounds just below the surface. Very subtle and very smart. It instantly impressed me.

On a tangent, aside from many of the Joker's antics, it was the only time I genuinely chuckled. I don't recall Freeman or Caine having any particularly crafty dialogue like they were given in BEGINS.

But the big caveat here is this: I thought BEGINS was just okay in the theaters. I've grown to love it. Hopefully the same will be for TDK.

[Harmsway]

It feels as if The Dark Knight is not getting a 10 or an A+ on CBn because a fair number of members here have a very discerning eye when it comes of films or the cinema and it takes a lot to get 10s...or even 9.5s.

There are plenty of highly discerning folk who loved THE DARK KNIGHT as well. I don't really think there's any significantly greater percentage of folks who found THE DARK KNIGHT less than impressive here than on any other place on the web... THE DARK KNIGHT has left numerous people less than ecstatic. And that's how it goes, and was to be expected. No film is to everyone's loving.

I have to say, though, there seems to be very few folks who outright dislike the film. That's more than can be said for a lot of critically-acclaimed blockbusters.

[dodge]

It feels as if The Dark Knight is not getting a 10 or an A+ on CBn because a fair number of members here have a very discerning eye when it comes of films or the cinema and it takes a lot to get 10s...or even 9.5s.

There are plenty of highly discerning folk who loved THE DARK KNIGHT as well. I don't really think there's any significantly greater percentage of folks who found THE DARK KNIGHT less than impressive here than on any other place on the web... THE DARK KNIGHT has left numerous people less than ecstatic. And that's how it goes, and was to be expected. No film is to everyone's loving.

I have to say, though, there seems to be very few folks who outright dislike the film. That's more than can be said for a lot of critically-acclaimed blockbusters.

I've just seen the film and hope Harmsway won't object if I piggy-back onto his most sensible thread. Goal: to keep myself from getting sucked into the Hoover-like powers of the opposing camps.

I saw the film yesterday. My own review: 4 stars. The very sort of masterpiece I tend to like the best--I mean, the kind where I often disagree with it. Would I have done it differently? Well, then, why don't I make my own film...or write my own masterful story? I might have even preferred that the director had tweaked or abandoned some parts. E.g.: The old chestnut: "You need me as I need you!" has been done so often I actually squirmed in my chair. That effect could have been avoided with the tiniest effort from the Nolan brothers. An original spin would have done simply fine and it wouldn't have had to be brilliant, just fresh: something to the effect "We're heads and tails, yin and yang."

The ferry scene left me cold. But what are we talking about here? A couple of scenes or a couple of parts in an epic running 2-1/2 hours?

Perhaps the ultimate lessons is to avoid the hype, avoid any foreknowledge (I really wish I hadn't known about the pencil scene.) And this why I ran like hell when the trailer came on...and I saw a chair being dragged across a floor...And this is why I will avoid any reviews or advance buzz regarding QoS.

[Harmsway]

Glad you liked it, dodge.

An original spin would have done simply fine and it wouldn't have had to be brilliant, just fresh: something to the effect "We're heads and tails, yin and yang."

I don't know that that's any fresher, really. It borders on being a heavy-handed way of delivering something that's already pretty explicit.

[Judo chop]

I've just seen the film and hope Harmsway won't object if I piggy-back onto his most sensible thread. Goal: to keep myself from getting sucked into the Hoover-like powers of the opposing camps.

It was a very sensible post. The film is good. But you can only talk about how good a film is in a general sense for so long. This is page 51 of the thread. Eventually discussions will get into details. Though it may not seem like it, I think most of us are just as willing to praise the highs as we are to condemn the lows. Again, the film daringly enters territories that no other superhero film has done, and there is an oscar-nomination-worthy performance in there.

The ferry scene left me cold. But what are we talking about here? A couple of scenes or a couple of parts in an epic running 2-1/2 hours?

As for the ferry scene… the problem is not that a scene tanked. The problem is that a PIVOTAL scene tanked. THIS is the moment where the Joker’s reason for unreason unravels. This is where the film is headed. It’s to be one of the great messages we’re to take from it. Much of the weight of the entire film, I think, rests upon the outcome of this moment. It’s a really bad time for an ‘oops’.

[Harmsway]

As for the ferry scene… the problem is not that a scene tanked. The problem is that a PIVOTAL scene tanked. THIS is the moment where the Joker’s reason for unreason unravels. This is where the film is headed. It’s to be one of the great messages we’re to take from it. Much of the weight of the entire film, I think, rests upon the outcome of this moment. It’s a really bad time for an ‘oops’.

So far, this scene has only been discussed in vague commentaries... "It needs to be better." "It's cliche." etc. and so on. Well, Judo (and others), what would you change about it? What specifically would you modify to make it work?