335 replies to this topic

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Blue Eyes

But why is it 'preposterous'?

No, it is not preposterous! It's preposterous for "adult" to believe a cartoon character . it's not Billings it's Messervy.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
Perhaps you can enlighten us with you wisdom and information from Michael Wilson ? I will be most interested ! Then perhaps we can settle this matter once and for all. It be can hard too take it seriously after the "James Bond jr" proof.  I can't wait for your reply.

You obviously haven't been paying attention. I posted the Micheal Wilson details earlier in this thread.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
So Walter Gotell who did General Gogol in (TSWLM , Moonraker , FYEO , Octopussy , AVTAK) return to his "originally employer after a stint with SPECTRE in "FRWL" . Look at the time name one creidible replacement for "M" after Bernard Lee's death. It is the same "M" , playe by two(2) different actors. The Ian Fleming foundation said so!!

This doesn't make sense....Where in FRWL is Gen. Gogol????????

I said that Lee and Brown appeared together in TSWLM as two separate characters. Lee as Sir Miles and Brown as Admiral Hargreaves (read the credits if you don't believe me) and that later Brown played Admiral Hargreaves promoted into the position of M in OP (not unrealistic for an Admiral to hold that position -- wasn't Sir Miles an Admiral??)!!

In TWINE Desmond Llewelyn and John Cleese played together in the same movie. By YOUR logic we must assume that John Cleese played "R" in TWINE and then Maj. Boothroyd in DAD.

That, combined with 1981 quoted evidence from none other than a Bond producer that (out of respect for Lee) they would not be recasting Sir Miles, but rather bringing in either an already introduced character as M, or a new character as M.

[DanMan]

John Cleese's Q and Desmond's Q are two seperate characters. Get it through your head already! This thread should have ended a long time ago.

[rafterman]

Gogol was not in FRWL, Walter Gotell the actor was-as a different character, Cleese's Q is a new character, period, both Ms may be Miles, but they may not, other than both appearing on screen together in SWLM it could be the same, it's possible, but I don't think so, I say the second M is a new guy, that's how I've always seen it..

[BONDFINESSE 007]

ok now the official count is that sir miles was replaced by hargreaves, and that judi dench's M replaced hargreaves.......WHATS HARD ABOUT THIS?

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by DanMan
John Cleese's Q and Desmond's Q are two seperate characters. Get it through your head already! This thread should have ended a long time ago.

I agree with you , but I am saying that using kevrichardson's logoc, we MUST assume that Cleese's Q is the same person as Desmond's Q.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by rafterman
Gogol was not in FRWL, Walter Gotell the actor was-as a different character, Cleese's Q is a new character, period, both Ms may be Miles, but they may not, other than both appearing on screen together in SWLM it could be the same, it's possible, but I don't think so, I say the second M is a new guy, that's how I've always seen it..

I agree with you 100 percent rafterman. The difference between Walter Gotell as both Morzeny and Gen. Gogol and Robert Brown as Admiral Hargreaves and later as M, is in three parts:
a)That Brown/Hargreaves appeared in the same movie as Bernard Lee's M (just as Cleese did with Llewelyn in TWINE).
It is entirely plausible that a Royal Naval Admiral would be promoted into the top spot at Mi6.
c) Bond producer Micheal Wilson stated in a 1981 interview that they did not intend to recast Sir Miles but either reintroduce an existing character or introduce a new character. This was as a sign of respect for Lee.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

You obviously haven't been paying attention. I posted the Micheal Wilson details earlier in this thread.

withas many thread to read through , i can be allowd to miss one . But i will make it a point to look it up!

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
I have more definite proof....I knew I had read this somewhere but I wasn't going to post it until I had tracked down the source....In the Oct. 1981 edition of "Film and Music" Micheal Wilson said they had no plans to recast Sir Miles after Lee's death, but would probably introduce a new character as the Head of MI6, or bring in a previously introduced character.

Okay ,Boy Genius . So what new about this. i did read this post. It states no new information. Look a the cast creidits for "OctoPussy" it's simply said "M" -Robert Brown. EON never introduced a new character as "M". It was a peplacement by other actor, who physically favored the original. nothing new here.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
c) Bond producer Micheal Wilson stated in a 1981 interview that they did not intend to recast Sir Miles but either reintroduce an existing character or introduce a new character. This was as a sign of respect for Lee.

Based on MGW's wording it would appear that that statement was made either before or during production. Whoes to say ideas were changed on this particular matter as many things are changed during any production.

It's a pity that there is no clear-cut, conclusive, definite proof that Brown's M is Hargreaves. Unless something has been changed clearcut, it should be assumed to be staying the same as before.

Therefore there is no option but to call Brown's M Sir Miles.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Blofeld's Cat

Based on MGW's wording it would appear that that statement was made either before or during production. Whoes to say ideas were changed on this particular matter as many things are changed during any production.

It's a pity that there is no clear-cut, conclusive, definite proof that Brown's M is Hargreaves. Unless something has been changed clearcut, it should be assumed to be staying the same as before.

Therefore there is no option but to call Brown's M Sir Miles.

Noone is going to change my mind. I don't follow your logic Blofeld's Cat.

[Jriv71]

I have to agree with Blofeld. The only time in the series that any reference was made to a previous "M" was in Goldeneye. Judi Dench is obviously (well, sort of) not Sir Miles. Plus, she mentioned her 'predecessor.'
I think Robert Brown sucked as "M", but some people think that Dalton or Moore or Brosnan or Lazenby sucked as Bond.
Brown just played two different characters in the series. Just like Gotell, Gray, Adams and Baker.
Remember, in FYEO, "M" was 'on leave'. And I don't think that 'retiring' Sir Miles in favor of Hargreaves is a real tribute to Lee. If anything it would be a slap in the face that he was never formally replaced. That much tells me that he wasn't replaced by Hargreaves.
(Or is it Don-Baker?)

[kevrichardson]

What was wrong with Robert Brown's "M" . I fit in nicely with the concept that EON had for Bond at the time .Certainly with Roger Moore , during the action-comedy years. IN "FYEO , "M" was on leave , Bernard Lee died during pre-production. Remember Lee was ill during "MR". So Broccoli chose not to re-cast the role and expand or introduce "Bill Tanner". This was his first apperance in a Bond film. you are right he was never replace and it would have been a slap in the face to a "loyal cast member" memory . Broccoli held loyality above all else.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Jriv71
I have to agree with Blofeld.  The only time in the series that any reference was made to a previous "M" was in Goldeneye.  Judi Dench is obviously (well, sort of) not Sir Miles.  Plus, she mentioned her 'predecessor.'  
I think Robert Brown sucked as "M", but some people think that Dalton or Moore or Brosnan or Lazenby sucked as Bond.
Brown just played two different characters in the series.  Just like Gotell, Gray, Adams and Baker.
Remember, in FYEO, "M" was 'on leave'.  And I don't think that 'retiring' Sir Miles in favor of Hargreaves is a real tribute to Lee.  If anything it would be a slap in the face that he was never formally replaced.  That much tells me that he wasn't replaced by Hargreaves.
(Or is it Don-Baker?)

So, since Brown and Lee were both playing Admirals in TSWLM, then one MUST conclude that John Cleese and Desmond Llewelyn both played Maj. Boothroyd.
Llewelyn played that character in TWINE, and Cleese played Boothroyd in DAD.
That version, by the way is supported by Raymond Benson so you are in good company.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Jriv71
I have to agree with Blofeld.  The only time in the series that any reference was made to a previous "M" was in Goldeneye.  Judi Dench is obviously (well, sort of) not Sir Miles.  Plus, she mentioned her 'predecessor.'  
I think Robert Brown sucked as "M", but some people think that Dalton or Moore or Brosnan or Lazenby sucked as Bond.
Brown just played two different characters in the series.  Just like Gotell, Gray, Adams and Baker.
Remember, in FYEO, "M" was 'on leave'.  And I don't think that 'retiring' Sir Miles in favor of Hargreaves is a real tribute to Lee.  If anything it would be a slap in the face that he was never formally replaced.  That much tells me that he wasn't replaced by Hargreaves.
(Or is it Don-Baker?)

I just don't see any evidence that Brown played Sir Miles....Lee obviously did because he was referred to on-screen as Sir Miles, but where in OP, AVTAK, TLD or LTK is Brown referred to as Sir Miles???
One must therefore conclude that he played Admiral Hargreaves.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

dlibrasnow its hopeless, we give them proof, they reject it, they would rather belive that brown and lee were one in the same, and they were not, why they cant grasp this concept is beyound me, and i also guess that micheal wilson was lying or he is just crazy when he said what he said, but at any rate their have been 3 M'S sir miles, hargreaves and judi

[DLibrasnow]

Yes, Bondfinesse, we have reached an impasse. I guess they are saying that Michael Wilson is a liar.
People are so entrenched in their particular view that I can definately see this thread getting really ugly, really fast.
I made a plea for a truce to one of the most vocal opponents of my particular point of view, but that person seems unable to even accept that, so....the good fight goes on.

[JackChase007]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow


I just don't see any evidence that Brown played Sir Miles....Lee obviously did because he was referred to on-screen as Sir Miles, but where in OP, AVTAK, TLD or LTK is Nrown referred to as Sir Miles???
One must therefore conclude that he played Admiral Hargreaves.

A very good point, but when do they once refer to him as Admiral Hargreaves? I think that it is a very tough argument, and I tend to stay in the middle on the subject. I really don't see him particularly as either Hargreaves or Miles - just "M". Whether he is supposed to be Admiral Sir Miles Messervy or not, I will only ever see Bernard Lee as the TRUE Sir Miles.

[Dr Noah]

"The only time in the series that any reference was made to a previous "M" was in Goldeneye"

Except for Never, Say Never Again (if you count it as being "official") where it's stated clearly that the Fox "M" isn't the Lee character.

I'd also suggest that the portrait of Lee's "M" in TWINE helps strengthen the idea that the Lee and Brown "M"'s were different.

[Dr Noah]

Lee 's "M"was (if my memory serves me well) was only called by his "proper" name once in the series, in TSWLM, Gogal called him "Miles" which could be either his first or second name.

Basically, in the movies, "M" is almost always called "M", the only time time we are ever told an "M"s full name is during "Casion Royle" where M is someone called "McTarry".

[DLibrasnow]

I believe he was also addressed by name in OHMSS, but I could be wrong. The fact that he is referred to by name in TSWLM would seem to strengthen the Brown is Hargreaves position since that was the same movie where Brown appeared in the end credits as Admiral Hargreaves.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

if the producers wanted us so badly to think that brown and lee were playing the same character, then they would have at some point had it where brown is called sir miles, it never happened, therefore one can not help but think that they are two diferent men

[DLibrasnow]

This whole thread reminds me of a similar argument among the "Back to the Future" fans, some of who have strong evidence (actually supported by BTTF writer Bob Gale - and mentioned by him on the DVD) that there was actually two Marty McFly's in the original BTTF movie.
That theory was first espoused in a 1986 issue of "Starlog" and was confirmed in a later letter to the magazaine from screenwriter Gale. The DVD was released last December in which Gale once again mentions the theory in his audio commentary.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by BONDFINESSE 007
if the producers wanted us so badly to think that brown and lee were playing the same character, then they would have at some point had it where brown is called sir miles, it never happened, therefore one can not help but think that they are two diferent men

Since Wilson considers Brown to be Hargreaves......not so surprising.
It is curious that the producers made a point of Lee being named as "Sir Miles" in a Lazenby and a Moore movie (to show continuation from the SC movies perhaps??).

[Dr Noah]

"I believe he was also addressed by name in OHMSS"

I can't really remember if he was or not in that movie

Funny enough, I've almost finished re-reading the book and so far Fleming just refers to "M" as "M", even in the Quarterdeck scenes set on Christmas Day.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Dr Noah
"I believe he was also addressed by name in OHMSS"

I can't really remember if he was or not in that movie

Funny enough, I've almost finished re-reading the book and so far Fleming just refers to "M" as "M", even in the Quarterdeck scenes set on Christmas Day.

Was it TMWTGG when ghost writer Kingsley Amis referred to M as Sir Miles. I believe the on-screen reference was made at the wedding scene towards the end, but I would have to pull out the DVD to be absolutely sure.

[Jriv71]

Originally posted by BONDFINESSE 007
if the producers wanted us so badly to think that brown and lee were playing the same character, then they would have at some point had it where brown is called sir miles

Not necessarily. If they wanted us to think that Brown was ALWAYS Hargreaves, then why disrespect Messervy by never mentioning his passing, or mentioning a new "M"? Why disrespect Hargreaves by never mentioning his promotion. I'm not talking about a ceremony here, just 3 seconds to mention it.

Granted there is no proof that they're all Messervy, but the fact that Brown was once Hargreaves doesn't prove anything. It only proves that the producers liked the actor. Other actors, as we've discussed, had multiple roles in Bond films. Just because he was once an admiral in a previous film, is an interesting thought, but NOT PROOF!

No need to get angry, anyone. If this is all because you much prefer Lee's "M" to Brown's "M", well I couldn't agree more.

[Jriv71]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow


So, since Brown and Lee were both playing Admirals in TSWLM, then one MUST conclude that John Cleese and Desmond Llewelyn both played Maj. Boothroyd.  
Llewelyn played that character in TWINE, and Cleese played Boothroyd in DAD.  
That version, by the way is supported by Raymond Benson so you are in good company.

Now you're just being silly. Cleese came back in his second film, clearly as Boothroyd's replacement, since they were both in the same film obviously not as the same guy. That's never been in question.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Jriv71
 If this is all because you much prefer Lee's "M" to Brown's "M", well I couldn't agree more.

It's partly that, but mostly because I believe there is more evidence (somewhat circumstantial as it may be) that Brown played Admiral Hargreaves. In my Moore era fan fiction I even have 'M' identified as Admiral Hargreaves.

Raymond Benson identifies Cleese's character in DAD as Maj. Boothroyd, so I'm not sure how silly we can assume the notion is.