335 replies to this topic

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Blue Eyes
I go with Benson's and Gardner's explanation of Brown's M, and that is that he was playing Sir Miles Messervy. It's a matter of opinion, however, I do believe the evidence to strongly stacked in favour of Brown's M being Messervy.

What more proof do you need . This is Sir Miles Messervy. Even the Ian Fleming foundation said so!

[DLibrasnow]

I believe its a matter of personal interpretation and I prefer to honor the memory of Bernard Lee rather than soiling his memory by claiming that he and Brown played the same character.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
I prefer to honor the memory of Bernard Lee rather than soiling his memory by claiming that he and Brown played the same character.

I agree it's a matter of interpretation, and I don't want to open up an old argument that we ended up settling quite amicably, but isn't "soiling his memory" putting things a little strongly? Does casting another actor as Sir Miles Messervy amount to desecrating the grave of Bernard Lee?

When Connery dies, will you accuse whoever's playing Bond of soiling his memory?

[DLibrasnow]

No, of course not because I believe they (GL, RM, TD, PB) are playing the same character. I personally believe that Lee and Brown were playing different characters and that the "evidence" is stacked in that favor due to Browns appearance in TSWLM as Admiral Hargreaves.
I don't think "soiling the memory" of Lee is overstating the case at all.

[Loomis]

I'm confused, DLibrasnow. You say that since SC, GL, RM, TD and PB are playing the same character, no one's soiling anyone's memory. On the other hand, you say that Robert Brown WOULD HAVE BEEN soiling the memory of Bernard Lee if he'd been playing the same character as Lee had played. What's the difference?

Presumably Samantha Bond and Caroline Bliss soiled the memory of Lois Maxwell by playing the same character that Maxwell played all those years? If not, tell me why it's okay to have different actors playing the same character in one instance (Moneypenny) and not in another (Sir Miles Messervy).

I think we're on a slippery slope if we start talking about soiling people's memories with a series as long as Bond that has an equally long history of actor and personnel changes. Where does it end? Did David Hedison soil the memory of Jack Lord by playing Felix Leiter? Is Raymond Benson soiling the memory of Ian Fleming? (Well, obviously THAT accusation would never cross anyone's mind in a million years;).)

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Loomis
Is Raymond Benson soiling the memory of Ian Fleming? (Well, obviously THAT accusation would never cross anyone's mind in a million years;).)

Hmmm...I would say yes.

[DLibrasnow]

Do you really think that you are going to change my mind about Lee and Brown???? It's not going to happen my friend!

[Blue Eyes]

If I came over with hot coals and a Walther P99 would you find that persuasive?

[DLibrasnow]

Not a chance

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
Do you really think that you are going to change my mind about Lee and Brown???? It's not going to happen my friend!

I'll respect your view on this as long as you respect my view that R does exist in the Bond world.

We don't have to actually agree with each others views, just respect them.

Who started this whole M thing in an R and Q thread, anyway!?

Oh.

[Blue Eyes]

Don't respect your view about R in the least In fact, I've already got a phsyciatrist lined up for the next time you're in Oz

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by Blue Eyes
Don't respect your view about R in the least In fact, I've already got a phsyciatrist lined up for the next time you're in Oz

I won't mind as long as the doctor is female and looks like Kate Beckensale. I'd love to have many a session on the couch with her.

[Blue Eyes]

If I found a doctor who looked like Kate Beckinsale, do you think I'd be referring her to anyone? I'd be making up emotional problems left, right and center.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by Blue Eyes
If I found a doctor who looked like Kate Beckinsale, do you think I'd be referring her to anyone? I'd be making up emotional problems left, right and center.

And one of those would be your disrespect of my views on R.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Blue Eyes
If I found a doctor who looked like Kate Beckinsale, do you think I'd be referring her to anyone? I'd be making up emotional problems left, right and center.

wouldn't we all....

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Loomis

Presumably Samantha Bond and Caroline Bliss soiled the memory of Lois Maxwell by playing the same character that Maxwell played all those years? If not, tell me why it's okay to have different actors playing the same character in one instance (Moneypenny) and not in another (Sir Miles Messervy).
I think we're on a slippery slope if we start talking about soiling people's memories with a series as long as Bond that has an equally long history of actor and personnel changes. Where does it end? Did David Hedison soil the memory of Jack Lord by playing Felix Leiter? Is Raymond Benson soiling the memory of Ian Fleming? (Well, obviously THAT accusation would never cross anyone's mind in a million years;).) [/B]

These are timeless characters , so who ever plays then honors the person . Who had the role before, this is the same "M" as Bernard Lee.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
Do you really think that you are going to change my mind about Lee and Brown???? It's not going to happen my friend!

Perish the thought, but I'd be grateful if you'd answer my questions.

Why is it okay to have different actors playing the same role in the Bond series EXCEPT FOR THE ROLE OF SIR MILES MESSERVY?

Why this obsession of yours with the memory of Bernard Lee? Was he a relative?

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow


Exactly. History though shows that some Bond fans have a problem with new characters appearing in the 007 series.  

There is some controversy as to who exactly Robert Brown was meant to be in his portrayal as M. One school of thought is that he was simply playing the part of Sir Miles Messervy (as Bernard Lee had earlier) and yet another school of thought has him playing Admiral Hargreaves (a character Brown played in TSWLM) who has him promoted to the position of M in OP. I subscribe to the second school of thought because it simply makes more sense.  
The whole M thing took on a different slant when Judi Dench took on the role because even the first school of thought had a problem accepting her as Sir Miles LOL

That is true we as Bond fans have a problem wwith change. Two i feel that most people don't feel that Judi Dench's "M" is the same. The producers made it clear that there would be a female "M" . Also in the real world , there was Dame Stella Rimington at MI5 . So that made the transition much easier.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
 That is true we as Bond fans have a problem wwith change. Two i feel that most people don't feel that Judi Dench's "M" is the same. The producers made it clear that there would be a female "M" .  Also in the real world , there was Dame Stella Rimington at MI5 . So that made the transition much easier.

Yes, but I remember a thread in an internet chat room back in 1996 (in the days of widespread BBS's) that stated "Is Judi Dench is Sir Miles in drag?" so it seems some people just can't except anyone but Sir Miles as 007's boss.
I think we can all agree that we will never agree who Robert Brown was playing in OP to LTK.

[Mister Asterix]

I'm not sure why everyone is being so stern about trying to change DLib's opinion. It's a valid opinion. I don't agree with it, and I will post here if I see any evidence either way that hasn't been picked up on yet, but quite frankly there is no hard evindence that supports either opinion.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Mister Asterix
I'm not sure why everyone is being so stern about trying to change DLib's opinion. It's a valid opinion. I don't agree with it, and I will post here if I see any evidence either way that hasn't been picked up on yet, but quite frankly there is no hard evindence that supports either opinion.

Thank you Mister *....I don't think there is real, tangible evidence to support either opinion either. Some people will agree with one opinion or the other, but reaction to the 007 series is, and should be, a largely individual experience. I think the value of these forums is to see how other fans take elements of the series, in the end nothing I say, or you say will win anyone over to see it the same way.

[Loomis]

I'm not trying to change DLibrasnow's opinion or anyone else's, Mr A. What I am doing is trying to get him to substantiate it. Contrary to what it may look like, I'm not particularly passionate about the theory that both Lee and Brown played Sir Miles. I don't really care who believes what.

I've already conceded to DLibransow that I believe his interpretation of things to be as valid as mine. I'm sure he's not taking offence from my posts. We've both been polite.

However, DLibrasnow has made some statements in support of his view that I'd like him to elaborate on. I've asked him some perfectly reasonable and civil questions that I'm still waiting for him to answer.

[Dr Noah]

"I believe its a matter of personal interpretation and I prefer to honor the memory of Bernard Lee rather than soiling his memory by claiming that he and Brown played the same character."

I like to think that M retired after FYEO and that Brown was a seperate character, simpley because M was ill served by the '80's Bond movies and that and that cheapened the character that Lee played so well.

I thought that Lee was irreplaceable as that character.

[Dr Noah]

"Why is it okay to have different actors playing the same role in the Bond series EXCEPT FOR THE ROLE OF SIR MILES MESSERVY?"

As far as I can tell, there is no on-screen evidence that Brown either did or didn't play the same character as Lee.

The Brown M's real name was never mentioned.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

Yes, but I remember a thread in an internet chat room back in 1996  (in the days of widespread BBS's) that stated "Is Judi Dench is Sir Miles in drag?" so it seems some people just can't except anyone but Sir Miles as 007's boss.
I think we can all agree that we will never agree who Robert Brown was playing in OP to LTK.

Yes we will never agree as to what character Robert Brown played. New "M" or old "M" . I does spring to mind a question . Iread during pre-production, the EON producers thouhght about replacing Judi Dench . The main name used then was Edward Woodard . If Dench is replace, in the future . Who would this new "M" be . Hargraves or Messervy.

[al]

Although, it is my opinion that Brown played Sir Miles, here is a bit of evidence that might support the notion that he didn't. If you consider NSNA as occurring prior to OP, then the exchange between Connery and Edward Fox hints at a change in M's.

"Look 007, I don't hold you in as high a regard as my illustrious predisessor did."

This statement clearly states that Fox's M is not Sir Miles. And After those events, Brown (Hargreaves) could have replaced Fox.

[Jriv71]

I don't believe you can use NSNA to follow M's lineage. But, Judi Dench in GE clearly referred to "My predecessor." Robert Brown never did, so we will never know.
When she made that statement, was she talking about Hargreaves or Messervy? My guess is Messervy. When Brown took over, they never even suggested it was a different character. Brown's M might be Hargreaves, but it may just be that the producers liked the actor (Brown), and wanted him to be the new Messervy.
I doubt that YOLT's Henderson was promoted (posthumously) to Blofeld, or that Whitaker was promoted (also posthumously) to become Wade. That's silly, obviously, but the point is, it's just an actor we've already seen (Brown), replacing an old one (Lee), as the same character.

[DLibrasnow]

There is quite simply no evidence to really support either point of view so it's simply a matter of personal preference. Unlike Charles Gray or Joe Don Baker, it is entirely likely that M would be a retired admiral (Sir Miles himself is an admiral). Brown appears in TSWLM as Admiral Hargreaves which is why I choose to believe that Brown is Admiral Hargreaves whereas Lee played Sir Miles.

[Jriv71]

Fair enough. Especially when you consider that Lee absolutely rules. Not up for discussion is, who is the best M.

[Dr Noah]

I can finally name Brown's M....its Admiral Billings!

The proof?...Watch the episode of James Bond Jnr called "Hostel Takeover" where the head of "The British Secret Service" is clearly named. As that series was EON approved and the scripts monitored by EON, we can take that as being "offical" (well if you want to )