335 replies to this topic

[BONDFINESSE 007]

well weather we use small letters or big letters some here are just not going to get it, and we have used 2 and a half pages more than we should have on this foolisness

[BONDFINESSE 007]

"oh great now we are on page four"

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Blofeld's Cat

This has been debated before, and based on the total lack of tangible evidence to support this notion, Brown's M is considered as Sir Miles. However, many others do support your theory, DL.

If it is Hargreaves, I wonder if his designation was "L" before he became "M."

There's no tangible evidence that Brown played Sir Miles either.

Damn, I wish they had had Brown and Bernard Lee play different characters in the same movie (ala Llewelyn and Cleese).
Oh wait a minute they did --- wasn't that TSWLM.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow


There's no tangible evidence that Brown played Sir Miles either.

So, based on that you feel that he isn't?

[al]

According to the literary venue, there are these definitions of characters.

M - Sir Miles Meservy (Casino Royale through Cold Fall)
Played in the movies by Lee, Brown, Fox, Houston, Niven
M - Barbara Mawdsly (Goldeneye through Die Another Day)
Played by Dench.

Q, Quartemaster, Armourer, Major (Algernon?) Boothroyd (Whole series)
Played in the movies by Burton, Desmond, Cleese, etc.

Q branch personnel, Smithers, Jennifer, 'R', Qute, etc.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by al
According to the literary venue, there are these definitions of characters.

M - Sir Miles Meservy (Casino Royale through Cold Fall)
     Played in the movies by Lee, Brown, Fox, Houston, Niven
M - Barbara Mawdsly (Goldeneye through Die Another Day)
     Played by Dench.

Q, Quartemaster, Armourer, Major (Algernon?) Boothroyd (Whole series)
    Played in the movies by Burton, Desmond, Cleese, etc.

Q branch personnel, Smithers, Jennifer, 'R', Qute, etc.

I have a question for you then --- you are saying that Boothroyd was played by Llewelyn and Cleese, how is that possible in TWINE? They clearly interact with each other.

How did Brown and Lee both play Sir Miles since they were both in TSWLM.

Of course, the Brown/Lee thing is all a matter of personal preference. I personally like to keep Lee as the epitome of Sir Miles and have the lesser performances of Robert Brown as a seperate character such as Admiral Hargreaves (the part Brown played in TSWLM).

I personally was extremely dissapointed when Benson gave the Dench M a last name starting with M. It is clear from the Fleming novels that the 'M' designation has no connection to the last name of the character. In the real life Mi6 the head of the department is named 'C' even though we all know that Stella Rimmington was head of the dept. during the 1990s.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

How did Brown and Lee both play Sir Miles since they were both in TSWLM.  

Very simple: in TSWLM, the character played by Brown wasn't Sir Miles, but Admiral Hargreaves (obviously). But Brown went on to play Sir Miles in other Bond films.

Obviously, the Bond franchise has a long history of actors cropping up in different roles. Walter Gotell plays a SPECTRE operative in FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE and General Gogol in other films; Charles Gray plays Henderson in YOU ONLY LIVE and Blofeld in DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER; Maud Adams plays Andrea in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN and the title role in OCTOPUSSY, etc. etc.

With that in mind, here's another theory: in DIE ANOTHER DAY, John Cleese does indeed play Boothroyd, and not The Character Controversially Known As R. In other words, he's playing the same Q as was played all those years by Desmond Llewelyn, and not the assistant to same whom he played in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH. As it turned out, Q never retired and the "young fellow" never replaced him. The role of Q was just recast, in the same way as new actors come in as Bond. So what if Q is suddenly much younger? Bond's age varies wildly from film to film.

The only hole in this theory is Q's comment about his predecessor who never made jokes about his work, but possibly Desmond Llewelyn's Q was once an apprentice to a cantankerous Q who took his work very seriously.

[kevrichardson]

i for one do not follow thw changes that Garnder makes in his novel, with respect to the support players in Bond. Qu'te for example is out right stupid . Just have a female assistant for Q branch. I felt that "M" as played by Robert Brown was the same as Bernard Lee . Admiral Hargraves was a different character. Barbara Mawdsly(?) the female "M" of the Brosnan Bond's , we all know what that about. based of the female chief of MI5 , Stella Rimington.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Loomis


Very simple: in TSWLM, the character played by Brown wasn't Sir Miles, but Admiral Hargreaves (obviously). But Brown went on to play Sir Miles in other Bond films.

This is a matter of some controversy since there is absolutely no evidence that Brown is portraying Sir Miles, but there is evidence that he plays Admiral Hargreaves.
Therefore in pure technical terms there is more evidence to point to him playing Admiral Hargreaves who gets promoted into the position of M following the death of Sir Miles (which is not that far fetched given the rank and position of Adm. Hargreaves in TSWLM).
There is no evidence that he played Sir Miles during his stint as M. I therefore subscribe to the idea that Brown played Adm. Hargreaves in five 007 movies.
I ask again, whereas I have provided evidence that Brown played Adm. Hargreaves promoted into the position of M. I would ask you to point out your counter evidence.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
i  Barbara Mawdsly(?) the female "M" of the Brosnan Bond's , we all know what that about. based of the female chief of MI5 , Stella Rimington.

Who of course has stepped down and is no longer the chief of Mi6.

[Xenobia]

Why didn't Benson give the new M. a different last name? I think DLibrasnow is right that RB could have been a touch more creative in naming M., but what was he going call her -- Barbara Remington? Barbara ????

Maybe that is the only English sounding last name he could think of at the moment. And if Gildrose really had a problem, they would have changed it.

-- Xenobia

[DLibrasnow]

In the end it's a matter of preference. I just think the evidence supports my view.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow


This is a matter of some controversy since there is absolutely no evidence that Brown is portraying Sir Miles, but there is evidence that he plays Admiral Hargreaves.  
Therefore in pure technical terms there is more evidence to point to him playing Admiral Hargreaves who gets promoted into the position of M following the death of Sir Miles (which is not that far fetched given the rank and position of Adm. Hargreaves in TSWLM).
There is no evidence that he played Sir Miles during his stint as M. I therefore subscribe to the idea that Brown played Adm. Hargreaves in five 007 movies.
I ask again, whereas I have provided evidence that Brown played Adm. Hargreaves promoted into the position of M. I would ask you to point out your counter evidence.

Well, your "evidence" that Brown's M is Hargreaves seems based on nothing more than the fact that Brown played Hargreaves in THE SPY WHO LOVED ME. Pretty thin. We all know that actors have played different roles in the Bond series.

It's never explicitly said that Brown's M isn't Messervy. I'm reading Benson's first Bond novel Zero Minus Ten at the moment, and Benson writes that the first female M succeeded Messervy, not Hargreaves.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Loomis


Well, your "evidence" that Brown's M is Hargreaves seems based on nothing more than the fact that Brown played Hargreaves in THE SPY WHO LOVED ME. Pretty thin. We all know that actors have played different roles in the Bond series.

You never answered my question. I presented evidence that Brown played M as the character of Admiral Hargreaves and asked for counter evidence that he played the character of Admiral Hargreaves in TSWLM and Sir Miles from OP on.
I'm still waiting for your evidence.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

I presented evidence that Brown played M as the character of Admiral Hargreaves  

What evidence was that again?

[BONDFINESSE 007]

we are not going to let this die are we???????

[Loomis]

Something this important? No way!

[Loomis]

DLibrasnow, I've re-read all your posts on this thread, and it seems to be the case that while you claim to have "presented evidence that Brown played M as the character of Admiral Hargreaves", all that you have to offer in support of that view is the fact that the actor who played Hargreaves in THE SPY WHO LOVED ME went on to play M in a number of films.

While I concede that Brown MAY have played M as Hargreaves (something I guess only Brown would know for sure), you have provided no tangible evidence whatsoever to PROVE that he did. And you cannot, because such evidence does not exist. Believe me, if it does, then I will owe you and offer you a very grovelling apology (I've admitted being wrong several times on various threads).

I admit that it would make sense for Hargreaves to be promoted to M, and I'm certainly not rubbishing your theory. I'm just questioning your claim to have provided proof. Surely you'll agree that it would be a perfectly acceptable alternative interpretation to say that Brown just continued to play Sir Miles after Bernard Lee's death? Exactly what is there in the post-Lee Bond films to contradict that?

Both theories hold water. Neither is "right". You've already admitted that "the Brown/Lee thing is all a matter of personal preference. I personally like to keep Lee as the epitome of Sir Miles and have the lesser performances of Robert Brown as a seperate character such as Admiral Hargreaves (the part Brown played in TSWLM)."

As for my "counter evidence", I have already given it. I've mentioned the tradition within the Bond series of the same actor playing different roles in different films (Charles Gray, Maud Adams, etc.), as well as Raymond Benson's contention in Zero Minus Ten that the female M took over from Sir Miles, not Admiral Hargreaves.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

well there is a part of me that would like to think that brown was a different M altogether from bernard lee just out of respect for lee, i hope that does not sound crazy

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by BONDFINESSE 007
well there is a part of me that would like to think that brown was a different M altogether from bernard lee just out of respect for lee, i hope that does not sound crazy

My feelings exactly....and there is certainly more evidence to suggest that Brown played Admiral Hargreaves as M than he played Sir Miles. Was the Sir Miles from DN to MR an imposter and then the real Sir Miles showed up in OP? If this is the case, why did Mi6 have a portrait of Lee's character in the office in the later movies?? Very curious

[Blue Eyes]

I go with Benson's and Gardner's explanation of Brown's M, and that is that he was playing Sir Miles Messervy. It's a matter of opinion, however, I do believe the evidence to strongly stacked in favour of Brown's M being Messervy.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

there is certainly more evidence to suggest that Brown played Admiral Hargreaves as M than he played Sir Miles.  

Well, again I ask you: what evidence?

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

Was the Sir Miles from DN to MR an imposter and then the real Sir Miles showed up in OP?  

That's like asking whether Blofeld was an imposter in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE and then the real one showed up in ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE. And what about all the different actors who played Felix Leiter? Moneypenny? And, er, Bond?

I don't see that the Bernard Lee portrait in TWINE proves that Brown didn't also play Sir Miles. It was just a little in-joke for fans, and possibly a respectful nod to Lee, who had first played the role. It doesn't acknowledge that he was the only person to have played it.

BTW, DLibrasnow, I believe that the above post was your 1,000th. Welcome to the FDC!

[Dr Noah]

I'd like the Brown "M" to be different from the Lee version, simply because Brown's "M" is a bit too insignificant and inferior to Lee (who was the perfect "M") and it would make perfect sense to make Hargreaves the '80's "M".

As for proof, well in "Thunderball" "M" trusted Bond's instincts, while in "TLD" Brown's "M" ingnores them completely.

[Loomis]

That's not proof, though. Lee's M doesn't always trust Bond's instincts, while Brown's M doesn't always ignore them.

Moore's Bond was an ageing extrovert, practical joker and skirt-chaser in films like MOONRAKER, OCTOPUSSY and A VIEW TO A KILL, while Dalton's Bond was a quiet, reserved, serious-minded and troubled young man who took no real pleasure in murder and sex. Would you suggest that Moore's Bond and Dalton's Bond are meant to be different roles? It's the same role, interpreted differently.

[Mister Asterix]

My proof that Bernard Lee and Robert Brown both play Sir Miles comes from For Your Eyes Only where it was said that M was on leave. M was not retiring. M was not dead. M was not fired. M was not replaced. He was on leave. He returned from leave in the next film played by a different actor. An actor who had past experience in Bond films.

As for R:

John Cleese's character in The World is not Enough is not named R.
John Cleese's character in The World is not Enough is not titled R.
John Cleese's character in The World is not Enough is nicknamed R*.
John Cleese's character in The World is not Enough is credited as R.
Peter Burton's character in Dr. No is Major Boothroyd.
Desmond Llewellen's character through out the series is Major Boothroyd.
John Cleese's character in Die Another Day is not Major Boothroyd.

Also Raymond Benson did not say the Q in the in the Die Another Day novelisation was Major Boothroyd. What he did say was that as far as the books were concerned Major Boothroyd is not dead or retired. But since the books do not refer to Major Boothroyd as Q (only the novelisations do) this is not much of a problem.

*Though be it a very short lived nickname.

[Double-Oh-Zero]

Well, here's my theory on the Admiral Hargreaves/M situation. M is on leave, and Admiral Hargreaves is the only one who has sufficient knowledge of the inner workins of MI6 that he assumes the duties of M until the real M returns. Which he does, just as a different actor. Simple.

Now, as for the R situation. I was watching Goldfinger's special edition documentary last night, and they were talking about the changing of the bomb timer from 003 seconds to 007 seconds. Now, they showed a portion of the script from that scene which read:

MS Bond turns to look at R.

Not sure what the MS is about, but don't bother trying to explain that. The point is, the fellow with the glasses who defuses the bomb is either known as R, or that was just a short form of his name for the script's sake, since he is listed in the credits as "Atomic Specıalıst," played by Robert MCleod. So to me, this is further proof that Cleese isn't known as R, it's just a nickname given to him by Bond.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Loomis

BTW, DLibrasnow, I believe that the above post was your 1,000th. Welcome to the FDC!

Thanks, yes it was...
Really, this whole M business is a matter of preference. We could sit here until eternity and debate it but the chances are that we would never change the other persons opinion.
I've laid out my evidence and you've said your part on the Brown/Lee factor, I guess this is one of those instances where you have to sit back and say...
We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Loomis]

Yes, I feel the same way. There's no way of proving the identity of Brown's M one way or the other, and there's no point going back and forth on it forever. No hard feelings.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Loomis
Yes, I feel the same way. There's no way of proving the identity of Brown's M one way or the other, and there's no point going back and forth on it forever. No hard feelings.

None whatsoever....wanna beer???

[Loomis]

Cool!