204 replies to this topic

[S K Y F A L L]

Its just impressive that he is still composing at his age let alone Oscar nominated films. His favorites are certainly probably his older works with Jaws, Superman, Star Wars, Indiana Jones etc etc. Most recently I thought his Star Wars prequel trilogy and Indiana Jones was as good as ever, also I thought he did a good score for 2002's Catch Me If You Can. I can't think of a score of his I don't like but I can't think of films he's done that I don't like, but in the end its just taste. 

 

Here's a Conan spoof of the Warhorse soundtrack, gets me every time.

[Walecs]

Well, if Spielberg directed a Bond movie - which I heard he wanted to, in the past, I think around the time of The Spy Who Loved Me - John Williams would have certainly made the music.

Edited by Walecs, 16 April 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[SecretAgentFan]

I disagree. His themes for WAR HORSE and LINCOLN are wonderful IMO.

 

yes, wonderful - but how well do you recall them, and can you hum them off by heart? that is what i mean by 'indistinct' and 'forgettable'.

 

(btw, i'm not saying good film scores must be unforgettable and hummable)

>A.I. ARITFICIAL INTELLIGENCE has got to be one of the finest scores Williams has ever written.

 

Agreed!

 

 

A.I. is a masterpiece.

 

And considering the hummability of WAR HORSE and LINCOLN - here it goes: hmmmmm-hmmmmmmmmmm-hmmmm-hmmmmm-hmmmmmmmmm.

[Sir Godfrey]

I find Williams is a great composer, but not a very good film composer.

His music sounds very well but it's not useful for the movies, specially during the last years...

[The Shark]

I find Williams is a great composer, but not a very good film composer.

His music sounds very well but it's not useful for the movies, specially during the last years...

 

What a load of bollocks.

[SecretAgentFan]

I find Williams is a great composer, but not a very good film composer.

His music sounds very well but it's not useful for the movies, specially during the last years...

 

What a load of bollocks.

 

True. "Not useful"? Extremely useful.

[Sir Godfrey]

Well. I like the main themes he created, and I think he's the best. But a film composer has to make some tracks which support the scenes and I find his recent scores are not "useful".

For example, I recently saw Lincoln. The movie is great but I felt absolutly nothing about the score. However when I listened the album at home, I found it very fantastic.

That's not the case with a composer like Thomas Newman, Hans Zimmer or Ennio Morricone whose musics are very resonant in the movies.

 

[archer1949]

Well. I like the main themes he created, and I think he's the best. But a film composer has to make some tracks which support the scenes and I find his recent scores are not "useful".

For example, I recently saw Lincoln. The movie is great but I felt absolutly nothing about the score. However when I listened the album at home, I found it very fantastic.

That's not the case with a composer like Thomas Newman, Hans Zimmer or Ennio Morricone whose musics are very resonant in the movies.

 

You must have a very different definition of "resonant" than I do. In the cases of Newman and Zimmer, a more apt description would be "Bland Wallpaper".

Williams adds so much to making a film work. He's crucial to every film he scores.

 

I doubt Williams would be interested in Bond 24, though. If they can't get Arnold back, I say bring in Giacchino!

[RMc2]

I doubt Williams would be interested in Bond 24, though. If they can't get Arnold back, I say bring in Giacchino!

 

YES.

[Sir Godfrey]

Well. I like the main themes he created, and I think he's the best. But a film composer has to make some tracks which support the scenes and I find his recent scores are not "useful".

For example, I recently saw Lincoln. The movie is great but I felt absolutly nothing about the score. However when I listened the album at home, I found it very fantastic.

That's not the case with a composer like Thomas Newman, Hans Zimmer or Ennio Morricone whose musics are very resonant in the movies.

 

You must have a very different definition of "resonant" than I do. In the cases of Newman and Zimmer, a more apt description would be "Bland Wallpaper".

Williams adds so much to making a film work. He's crucial to every film he scores.

 

I doubt Williams would be interested in Bond 24, though. If they can't get Arnold back, I say bring in Giacchino!

 

You must have a very different definition of "film composer" than I do.

But I agree for Giacchino !

[DCI_director]

I did not enjoy Newman's score.  I felt it was dull and for me lacked a lot of "Bond" style.  I felt it was just white noise behind the acting and added nothing to the film.  It was one of the few things I disliked about Skyfall.  I have discovered that people fall into the John Barry/David Arnold sound, Thomas Newman sound or someone completely different.  I prefer the true Bond sound so that puts me in the David Arnold camp so he is the one I will be rooting for come Bond 24, however I will say I did enjoy Michael Giacchino's score for The Incredibles, but that was probably because he mixed some of that tried and true John Barry Bond sound.  

[Eric Stromberg]

I liked Newman's score.  Very different from Arnold's style.  More complex and orchestral.  But today I was listening to some selections from CR and QoS, and I really like Arnold's work on those, especially QoS.  There are some beautiful arrangements and background sound effects that add muscle to the framework.  At the same time Arnold can be very brassy and cheesy, which I think was totally appropriate for CR.  I'm happy to see either of them return.

[Gt Munn]

Though this does not regard the upcoming Bond score, it is interesting to hear, that hack, Hans Zimmer's new Superman theme as being, as usual, not original. I'm hearing David Arnold's 'You Know My Name' from Casino Royale. 

Click the link and start listening at 1:58:

"Arm yourself because no-one else here will save you..."

 

I suppose it is an honor that Arnold's theme left such a lasting impression on Zimmer.

Edited by Gt Munn, 24 April 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[SecretAgentFan]

I must admit: I do not hear YKMN in that.

[Walecs]

It vaguely sounds like it, but sounds more like a coincidence to me.
 

Another funny coincidence:

In the first Thunderball track, you can briefly hear YKMN main notes (B C# B D) at 2:10. Obviously a coincidence, but it's interesting though.
http://www.youtube.c...-JdF6go#t=2m10s

[Gt Munn]

I must admit: I do not hear YKMN in that.

It may help if you use the context of that melody in the film rather than the song.

 

It vaguely sounds like it, but sounds more like a coincidence to me.
 

Another funny coincidence:

In the first Thunderball track, you can briefly hear YKMN main notes (B C# B D) at 2:10. Obviously a coincidence, but it's interesting though.
http://www.youtube.c...-JdF6go#t=2m10s

I believe that it is certainly a coincidence. It just isn't a very inspired main theme for such a strong character. Its extreme simplicity doesn't help much at all.

Edited by Gt Munn, 24 April 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[x007AceOfSpades]

I like Zimmer as a composer, but lately, I've been disappointed with his work. I loved his score for 'The Dark Knight' but was disappointed with 'The Dark Knight Rises', and I believe it's because it didn't have the input of James Newton Howard. Whether what was heard in the third trailer for 'Man Of Steel' was really Zimmer's work, or just trailer house music, It felt underwhelming. It doesn't really have an uplift to it, like John Williams' theme did for 'Superman: The Motion Picture'. It just sounds like something I've heard before. It almost felt as if you could apply it to any other superhero.

[The Shark]

Though this does not regard the upcoming Bond score, it is interesting to hear, that hack, Hans Zimmer's new Superman theme as being, as usual, not original. I'm hearing David Arnold's 'You Know My Name' from Casino Royale. 
Click the link and start listening at 1:58:

"Arm yourself because no-one else here will save you..."
 
I suppose it is an honor that Arnold's theme left such a lasting impression on Zimmer.

I must admit: I do not hear YKMN in that.

 

It's the chord progression. Adele's SF uses it too.

 

In the first Thunderball track, you can briefly hear YKMN main notes (B C# B D) at 2:10. Obviously a coincidence, but it's interesting though.
http://www.youtube.c...-JdF6go#t=2m10s

 

That's because both motifs are derived from the Bond theme.

[SecretAgentFan]

I am not a Hans Zimmer fan - but if one accuses him of plagiarizing YKMN because he uses a certain chord progression one would have to accuse so many other composers of that. It makes no sense. A chord progression is a tool, like a certain camera move for a cinematographer. Would Michael Ballhaus be accused because he uses close-ups, too?

[Gt Munn]

I am not a Hans Zimmer fan - but if one accuses him of plagiarizing YKMN because he uses a certain chord progression one would have to accuse so many other composers of that. It makes no sense. A chord progression is a tool, like a certain camera move for a cinematographer. Would Michael Ballhaus be accused because he uses close-ups, too?

I am not accusing him of plagiarism. I am simply stating that he is unoriginal and overly simplistic in his writing. The fact that he did not come of with a truly original theme (Williams' Superman Theme) is disappointing, and yet not a surprise.

[x007AceOfSpades]

I love Zimmer, but lately he hasn't been thinking outside the box, I think his Superman theme is underwhelming. Something that can apply to almost any superhero.

[SecretAgentFan]

Gt Munn, Ace, we only got a few minutes from a trailer. Why are you so quick to dismiss everything without even having seen the whole film?

 

Internet...

Edited by SecretAgentFan, 26 April 2013 - 04:27 AM.

[x007AceOfSpades]

Because it's called an opinion and having it. I'm just not impressed with everything I have seen for it. Williams' theme is triumphant and uplifting and strong. Just based off of what was heard, Zimmer's doesn't sound triumphant or uplifting. They say Superman is the king of all superhero's, me personally, I beg to differ, but for such a strong character, he does deserve a a strong theme for this era.

[SecretAgentFan]

Dismissing the whole thing without having seen it (or heard it in this case) may be an opinion - but only a premature and unfounded one, probably based on prejudices and unrealistic expectations.

 

I adore Williams´ SUPERMAN score. Zimmer can probably not top it for me just because Williams´ score is so deeply rooted in my mind since it made this fantastic impression in my childhood.

 

But times have changed. Williams´ score would most probably not work in today´s blockbusters. And MAN OF STEEL will probably be very different in tone from Donner´s SUPERMAN - THE MOVIE. To expect a score that is at least similar to Williams´ work can only lead to disappointment.

 

But again, Ace, I respect your opinions. I just wonder why you continue to post negative things about this film and its score when you haven´t really experienced it. It feels like you are on a mission to pour hate on it. That is my opinion.

[x007AceOfSpades]

Of course 'Man Of Steel' will be different in tone, Nolan is behind it, so to some it's automatically and instantly "Dark" and "Edgy", but to me it honestly looks like another Superhero Summer Blockbuster film. Sure Williams' score would not have worked in today's average blockbuster, but Zimmer's theme doesn't need to be downright flat and almost, borderline depressing. I'm expecting something to sound EXACTLY like Williams' work, just something that has that sense of triumph and uplift to it, without sounding to today's generation as "goofy", because most people now, especially young ones, would look at Williams' theme as just funny and goofy, although I disagree.

 

Why? Because they're just that, Opinions. I'm just not too impressed with anything I've seen from the film. The posters, photo's, trailers, tv spots, etc. I'm not expressing hatred, I'm just expressing my disappointment and my opinions towards a character I Loved, yes loved. If I was on a mission to pour hate on it, it would be pretty obvious, but It's just the way I feel, It's my opinion, respected or not.

[Sir Godfrey]

Dismissing the whole thing without having seen it (or heard it in this case) may be an opinion - but only a premature and unfounded one, probably based on prejudices and unrealistic expectations.

 

I adore Williams´ SUPERMAN score. Zimmer can probably not top it for me just because Williams´ score is so deeply rooted in my mind since it made this fantastic impression in my childhood.

 

But times have changed. Williams´ score would most probably not work in today´s blockbusters. And MAN OF STEEL will probably be very different in tone from Donner´s SUPERMAN - THE MOVIE. To expect a score that is at least similar to Williams´ work can only lead to disappointment.

 

But again, Ace, I respect your opinions. I just wonder why you continue to post negative things about this film and its score when you haven´t really experienced it. It feels like you are on a mission to pour hate on it. That is my opinion.

 

I totally agree.

[bondjames]

To get this back on track I'd be happy with Newman or Arnold, although I think Arnold may be better for Bond24, despite serious misgivings and disappointment about his contributions during the Brosnan era.

 

Why?

 

Because he has a genuine feel for Bond and was a fan of John Barry - who defined the 'Bond sound'. Despite Arnold's mostly forgettable work during Brosnan's tenure, he has really upped his game during Craig's run. There is some wonderful stuff on the Casino Royale (African Rundown is totally Barryesque and perfectly fits the scene) and even better stuff on Quantum where he really outdid himself. Night At The Opera was outstanding and evoked the clmbing tension of Gumbold's Safe from OHMSS - both these tracks remind me of Ravel's incomparable Bolero, with the increasing tension and buildup. Bond in Haiti, Someone Wants to Kill You and Bolivian Taxi Ride were also very good. He still has a tendency to be too bombastic and noisey with the action scenes (African Rundown notwithstanding) but I think he has improved dramatically. Having missed out on the 50th Anniversary Bond, I think he will be hungry and want to outdo himself. Given  that I believe Bond 24 is going to be a true classic (Eon has too much to lose to screw this one up) they need a composer who can give it the 'Bond sound'.

 

Having said that, I'd be happy with Newman as well. He did an excellent job with Skyfall. The Chimera, Severine, New Diggs, and Shanghai Drive were absolutely outstanding. I'm just concerned that it may been beginner's luck and he may try to experiment too much outside the Bond sound. Much as I like creativity, I'd like some consistency, particularly when the standard was set so high by Barry. It's like the gun barrel. All attempts at experimenting with one of the franchise's iconic elements have failed miserably. Hopefully they get that right next time too.

 

Bottom line: Give it to one of these two. They've proven they can do the job. Just make sure to get the best out of them, and find out who is hungrier for the job. I'd suspect it's Arnold.

Edited by bondjames, 21 July 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[x007AceOfSpades]

Mendes is returning to direct, Newman will return to score. I'd be shocked if Arnold was brought on board.

[bondjames]

I also want to add that I've been very happy with nearly all of the 'one off' composers that have been called on to do Bond. I say 'nearly all'.

 

1.George Martin - LALD - Excellent

2.Marvin Hamlisch - TSWLM - Very good (the Egypt scenes were some of the most spine tingling, music wise in the Bond cannon)

3.Bill Conti - FYEO - Very good to Excellent (experimental in some areas and somewhat disco era but still memorable, and that's the key. This score is memorable, particularly in the ski scenes and in way they pull in the theme song throughout)

4.Michael Kamen - LTK - Poor and unmemorable (thought I was watching Die Hard and Lethal Weapon combo)

5.Eric Serra - Goldeneye - Excellent (very underrated. The Goldeneye Overture was superb and he showed great potential with a new sound. He just needed to be dialled back a little).

6.Thomas Newman - Skyfall - Excellent

 

I think Martin, Conti and Serra each delivered for LALD, FYEO & Goldeneye respectively some of the best 'gun barrel' compositions of the series.

 

So only Michael Kamen disappointed me. In fact, I think all of these 'replacement' composers above except for Kamen did much better work on their one-off projects than 'in-house' David Arnold managed during Brosnan's era, when he, for the most part, created unmemorable garbage, unworthy of Bond and more in tune with standard Hollywood tripe.

 

I'm not sure if this was entirely Arnold's fault however (see my previous post) because I think he really did much better for Casino Royale and QOS. It could be that, like everyone else working on Bond during the time, he suffered from poor quality output during the post-Goldeneye Brosnan period. The entire Bond team really took their game back to the highest level from Casino Royale onwards.

Edited by bondjames, 21 July 2013 - 08:36 PM.

[Walecs]

To get this back on track I'd be happy with Newman or Arnold, although I think Arnold may be better for Bond24, despite serious misgivings and disappointment about his contributions during the Brosnan era.

 

Why?

 

Because he has a genuine feel for Bond and was a fan of John Barry - who defined the 'Bond sound'. Despite Arnold's mostly forgettable work during Brosnan's tenure, he has really upped his game during Craig's run. There is some wonderful stuff on the Casino Royale (African Rundown is totally Barryesque and perfectly fits the scene) and even better stuff on Quantum where he really outdid himself. Night At The Opera was outstanding and evoked the clmbing tension of Gumbold's Safe from OHMSS - both these tracks remind me of Ravel's incomparable Bolero, with the increasing tension and buildup. Bond in Haiti, Someone Wants to Kill You and Bolivian Taxi Ride were also very good. He still has a tendency to be too bombastic and noisey with the action scenes (African Rundown notwithstanding) but I think he has improved dramatically. Having missed out on the 50th Anniversary Bond, I think he will be hungry and want to outdo himself. Given  that I believe Bond 24 is going to be a true classic (Eon has too much to lose to screw this one up) they need a composer who can give it the 'Bond sound'.

 

Having said that, I'd be happy with Newman as well. He did an excellent job with Skyfall. The Chimera, Severine, New Diggs, and Shanghai Drive were absolutely outstanding. I'm just concerned that it may been beginner's luck and he may try to experiment too much outside the Bond sound. Much as I like creativity, I'd like some consistency, particularly when the standard was set so high by Barry. It's like the gun barrel. All attempts at experimenting with one of the franchise's iconic elements have failed miserably. Hopefully they get that right next time too.

 

Bottom line: Give it to one of these two. They've proven they can do the job. Just make sure to get the best out of them, and find out who is hungrier for the job. I'd suspect it's Arnold.

serious misgivings and disappointment about his contributions during the Brosnan era: not sure what you're talking about.
he has a genuine feel for Bond and was a fan of John Barry - who defined the 'Bond sound': exactly why Arnold should come back

Edited by Walecs, 21 July 2013 - 09:27 PM.