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Who is Oberhauser?


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#301 tdalton

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Posted 19 August 2015 - 05:22 PM

The question that keeps bugging me is this: assuming Blofeld/Oberhauser knew Bond during childhood... can the filmmakers make this work without audiences rolling their eyes? If they suggest that his creation of a global criminal empire was motivated by his hated/jealousy of Bond, it's going to take some very good writing to not make that seem completely ridiculous.
 
Then again, maybe the global criminal empire is its own thing, and getting revenge on Bond is just a bonus.
 
Either way, I think it's going to be very tricky to write. If it's particularly well written, I guess it could add an extra layer of drama and emotional resonance?
 
I just can't make my mind up about this!


I think the short answer is that there isn't a way for the to go that route and not have the audience roll their eyes. The core of the concept, that all of Bond's pain (either from childhood on or just from CR onward) being caused by a childhood friend, who just also happens to be the leader of the largest and most powerful criminal organization in the world, is itself a rather ridiculous concept.

#302 kneelbeforezod

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Posted 19 August 2015 - 05:33 PM

 

I think the short answer is that there isn't a way for the to go that route and not have the audience roll their eyes. The core of the concept, that all of Bond's pain (either from childhood on or just from CR onward) being caused by a childhood friend, who just also happens to be the leader of the largest and most powerful criminal organization in the world, is itself a rather ridiculous concept.

 

I fear that you are right. I suppose the idea of an acquaintance from childhood holding a grudge and wanting to cause Bond pain is fine. And the idea of the head of a global criminal empire is fine. But the problems start when you conflate those two ideas. 

 

We have to divorce ourselves from previous iterations of Blofeld and say "there's a guy who hated Bond since childhood, built up a global criminal empire because he's messed up, and then also saw a chance to get at Bond. And his name just happens to be Blofeld". That KIND OF works doesn't it? I'm reaching here!



#303 Vauxhall

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Posted 19 August 2015 - 05:53 PM

 

We have to divorce ourselves from previous iterations of Blofeld and say "there's a guy who hated Bond since childhood, built up a global criminal empire because he's messed up, and then also saw a chance to get at Bond. And his name just happens to be Blofeld". That KIND OF works doesn't it? I'm reaching here!

 

 

Just about, and I'd imagine that's pretty much where we're headed!



#304 Shrublands

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Posted 19 August 2015 - 11:15 PM

The question that keeps bugging me is this: assuming Blofeld/Oberhauser knew Bond during childhood... can the filmmakers make this work without audiences rolling their eyes? If they suggest that his creation of a global criminal empire was motivated by his hated/jealousy of Bond, it's going to take some very good writing to not make that seem completely ridiculous.

 

Then again, maybe the global criminal empire is its own thing, and getting revenge on Bond is just a bonus.

 

Either way, I think it's going to be very tricky to write. If it's particularly well written, I guess it could add an extra layer of drama and emotional resonance?

 

I just can't make my mind up about this! 

 

 

Neither can I.

 

Can they make this work? The thing is, from what I know, the film could have worked extremely well without this idea.

Why include it at all? If they can make it work, perhaps it will elevate the whole thing to something really special.

 

I really don't know.



#305 kneelbeforezod

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Posted 19 August 2015 - 11:28 PM

 

Neither can I.

 

Can they make this work? The thing is, from what I know, the film could have worked extremely well without this idea.

Why include it at all? If they can make it work, perhaps it will elevate the whole thing to something really special.

 

I really don't know.

 

 

I suppose that knowing Bond, and taking pleasure in his pain, is one thing. I can live with that... they just need to make it so that S.P.E.C.T.R.E wasn't created in order to get at Bond. That would be absurd and totally undermine the organisation. It could all hinge on a couple of lines of dialogue! Let's hope they can find a way to walk this tightrope...



#306 Matt_13

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Posted 19 August 2015 - 11:38 PM

I like the idea of one household (Bond and Oberhauser's) developing two extraordinary people. That bit I'm perfectly okay with. If it turns out that SPECTRE was developed out of jealousy or hatred of Bond, that's going to be a bit silly. I trust Mendes.



#307 Guy Haines

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:06 AM

If it does turn out to be that Bond and "Oberhauser/Blofeld" were linked in some way - temporary guardianship, as the document glimpsed in the first teaser trailer says about Bond - that doesn't necessarily mean that SPECTRE was set up as revenge on Bond for some childhood slight. That would be too much. A bit like a definition I came across a few years back of why people go into politics (And guys, none of this influenced me!) "I'm standing for election to get my own back on the kids at school who used to call me 'fish face'"

No, it will be the fickle fingure of fate that points Bond in the direction of Oberhauser and vice versa. Bond chose one path - the military, followed by MI6 and the Double O section. Oberhauser chose another - big time crime with a veneer of respectability. I suspect what we will learn is that the events of CR/QoS put them on an unexpected collision course which continues in Spectre, might even culminate in the movie - unless the finale is saved for Bond 25.

None of which explains how Oberhauser became Blofeld or vice versa. I've suggested various scenarios for that on this thread, as have others, but we won't know for sure until October.

#308 Shrublands

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:44 AM

I suppose that there are degrees of this. Let's say that Oberhauser/Blofeld did not create Spectre simple to get at Bond. Which would of course be a terrible idea.

But what will the film seem to say is the most important to him? World domination or a vendetta over a petty childhood slight?

 

It's going to be very tricky not to make this seems very silly.



#309 tdalton

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 04:16 AM

Regardless of how they ultimately get there, the idea of Bond and Oberhauser being childhood friends and then going on to become one of the great superspies and the leader of the foremost villainous organization is just too much. There is no way that they can pull it off without it coming off like AUSTIN POWERS.

I'm really hoping that they're actually going a completely different direction from this and that the rewrites did something to fix where we all seem to think this is headed. If they do go the route that we've all speculated, then quite frankly I'll be ready to move on to Bond #7 with the next film, because there just won't be any way to fix the mess that they will have made of the Craig era if this is indeed the story that they've decided they want to tell. It's just too much.

#310 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 04:28 AM

I agree on this: Oberhauser should not create SPECTRE just to stick it to Bond.

 

However, if there is a jealous rage in Oberhauser it would be logical that he turned to crime, slowly building up this terrorist organization. And when Bond went the other way, becoming a protector, fighting against terrorists, it must have been another thorn in Oberhauser´s side.  Then he very well could have planned to cause Bond pain, getting more and more amused at Bond not knowing who is responsible for Vesper´s dilemma, Quantum´s threats and even Silva´s attacks.

 

Revealing himself now in order to show off would be in line with that psychology.  

 

And that I would buy.



#311 Guy Haines

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 06:28 AM

I think SecretAgentFan may be on to something here. Oberhauser would have founded SPECTRE anyway. Bond could have gone into some other line of work and it wouldn't have stopped him. Oberhauser and SPECTRE were the shadowy backers of Quantum - perhaps SPECTRE emerged out of Quantum. No matter.

Up until the events surrounding Le Chiffre's loss of the millions bet against the Skytrain aircraft company, Quantum was carrying on in criminality. Only when word gets back to the powers behind Le Chiffre that a certain James Bond was responsible does it suddenly become - and I know many out there will loathe this - personal. But not for Bond - at this stage neither he nor M have a clue what "the organisation" really is.

Anyone out there who has read You Only Live Twice will recall when Bond meets Blofeld again and has to endure not only possible death by hot geyser, but also Blofeld's self justifying speech outlining what he did previously and why. Up until now I'd assumed we would hear something similar in Craig's final outing, probably Bond 25. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Oberhauser's explanation of Bond's "pain" is along similar lines in Spectre - setting up Vesper to fall in love with 007 then betray him. Then in SF setting up Silva to attack MI6, kill Bond's colleagues and persue M - with her death in the end.

The weak link in the plot line is the events of QoS. By setting in motion the events in the second half of CR, Oberhauser should have realised that he had made Quantum a target of interest for Bond and MI6 - but then again it already was, but its name wasn't known. Oberhauser must have underestimated just how successful Bond would be in blowing Quantum as an effective force. It seems a perilous way of getting your own back on someone - risking everything you've invested in one organisation. But there's no accounting for the sheer arrogance of these Bond villains!

#312 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 08:40 AM

Oberhauser must have underestimated just how successful Bond would be in blowing Quantum as an effective force. It seems a perilous way of getting your own back on someone - risking everything you've invested in one organisation. But there's no accounting for the sheer arrogance of these Bond villains!

 

Well, that´s how human beings are.  Underestimating dangers, overestimating themselves.  Perfectly natural, I guess.



#313 Guy Haines

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 09:25 AM

As you say, perfectly natural, and possibly Oberhauser's undoing. He's running a successful covert criminal/terrorist/private intelligence enterprise like Quantum and/or SPECTRE. A plan goes wrong - Skytrain? He realises who is responsible, and thereafter at the back of Oberhauser's mind, even when he and his cronies are plotting other things is .......James Bond, someone he was linked to years ago, and whom fate has brought back to the forefront.

This is perhaps how the "link" between these two characters may be played out in the new movie. SPECTRE not set up as a vehicle to destroy Bond - rather, along with Quantum, a vehicle to make mayhem and money which is ultimately undone, along with its leader, because that leader is fated to battle a man he knew years before and came to loathe.

#314 stromberg

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 10:24 AM

As you say, perfectly natural, and possibly Oberhauser's undoing. He's running a successful covert criminal/terrorist/private intelligence enterprise like Quantum and/or SPECTRE. A plan goes wrong - Skytrain? He realises who is responsible, and thereafter at the back of Oberhauser's mind, even when he and his cronies are plotting other things is .......James Bond, someone he was linked to years ago, and whom fate has brought back to the forefront.

This is perhaps how the "link" between these two characters may be played out in the new movie. SPECTRE not set up as a vehicle to destroy Bond - rather, along with Quantum, a vehicle to make mayhem and money which is ultimately undone, along with its leader, because that leader is fated to battle a man he knew years before and came to loathe.

It's Skyfleet, not Skytrain :P

 

But, Yes, that's the way I tend to see it. The fact that Bond got involved was merely a coincidence and Oberhauser grabbed the opportunity to have a little fun on the side by pestering his unloved Foster brother whom he hated since childhood. It's just a little extra bonus. The only thing that may have been influenced by this is the fact that he didn't have Bond killed by Mr White along with Le Chiffre when he had the opportunity. He wanted to have him for a little cat and mouse game, and kill him after a big reveal (there's not much sense in carrying out a vendetta when the victim has no clue about it).

 

And there we have it, that big old classic Bond villain mistake: Why don't they just kill him when they have the opportunity? There's always these eloborate plans for an amusing death and the need to reveal the big master plan to Bond. And as a result, they fail and/or die and Bond survives...



#315 Guy Haines

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 11:37 AM

Thanks stromberg. I knew the word "sky" was in it somewhere! ;-) Senior moment. Good job I didn't call it "Skylab" or Sky TV".

As revenge goes this may be a real slow burner. Nearly nine years from CR to now. Wars have been fought and marriages entered into and broken up in less time!

I think "coincidence" is the answer, but as I posted before it will no doubt prove to be Oberhauser's undoing - a global conspiracy ultimately undone because a feud from way back when re-emerges by chance.

Incidentally, stromberg, do you still think that "Blofeld" is really Oberhauser in this Bond movie universe? I posted a few weeks back that it might be the only explanation that makes sense of why Bond - to judge from the expression on his face in the meeting shown in the trailer - realises that he knows who "Number One" really is.

#316 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 11:58 AM

Although they are still denying that Oberhauser is Blofeld - it really would not make sense to establish someone as the head of SPECTRE (especially in that jacket) and then give him another name.

 

Unless, of course, the real Blofeld will be revealed at the end, and Oberhauser is just one Largo-kind of No.1.

 

I would love that, actually, and I would love it even more if Oberhauser were then eliminated by Blofeld for attracting attention to SPECTRE with a personal vendetta.



#317 Guy Haines

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:24 PM

SecretAgentFan, that is an intriguing idea. SPECTRE, after all, doesn't "tolerate failure", and for all the success in retrieving the money made in the Casino Royale, and then later securing the death of M in SF, the fact is that in QoS "Quantum" was blown beyond recovery. Now, if Quantum was a rival to SPECTRE that would count as a plus - with Bond having done SPECTRE's handiwork for it. But suppose Quantum was the forerunner of SPECTRE? It suggests the "same old same old" in terms of villainy - encounter with 007 and the result is disastrous.

So, I can just about envisage a scenario where Oberhauser has had all this time running first Quantum and now SPECTRE, has had various plans foiled, and all because his eye was off the boil through Bond's interference and the revivial of a personal vendetta. And the one man as powerful as Franz Oberhauser within SPECTRE - Ernst Stavro Blofeld - calling time on him.

That said, I think it more likely that Oberhauser will turn out to be Blofeld - or that, as has been suggested here by our colleague stromberg a few weeks ago, that "Blofeld" is the name the leader goes by within SPECTRE, but that Bond knows he is really Franz Oberhauser.

(Which, if you think about it, would square with Christoph Waltz's insistance that he is playing Oberhauser - if "Blofeld" in this film is in fact an alias.)

#318 stromberg

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 01:13 PM

Incidentally, stromberg, do you still think that "Blofeld" is really Oberhauser in this Bond movie universe? I posted a few weeks back that it might be the only explanation that makes sense of why Bond - to judge from the expression on his face in the meeting shown in the trailer - realises that he knows who "Number One" really is.

 

I'm undecided between two options, this one is one of them:

That said, I think it more likely that Oberhauser will turn out to be Blofeld - or that, as has been suggested here by our colleague stromberg a few weeks ago, that "Blofeld" is the name the leader goes by within SPECTRE, but that Bond knows he is really Franz Oberhauser.

 

But there's that other option I pointed out weeks ago: Oberhauser is Number Two, trying to become the new Number One (whoever the old Number One may be - White? I'd pay double if they had a cameo by Robert Wagner as Number One :D). They fight each other, while Number Three (Ernst Stavro Blofeld) is waiting for his two adversaries to exhaust themselves and then strike (like the Siamese Fighting Fish in FRWL). Big reveal at the end of SPECTRE "Allow me to introduce myself: my name is Ernst. Stavro. Blofeld."



#319 Guy Haines

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 01:36 PM

Actually I also like the "siamese fighting fish" idea too! You can just picture the scene as Blofeld is revealed and explains;

"White? Oberhauser? Like siamese fighting fish, each as stupid as the other. I am the leader of SPECTRE."

(A line which would recall both Dr No's contempt for the East and the West - "each as stupid as the other" - and Blofeld's comments on fighting fish in FRWL - though I dare say only a few would spot it!)

#320 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 01:38 PM

I love that idea! 

 

And somehow I think (and hope for it) that Mendes is too clever to just present Oberhauser as Blofeld without another twist.



#321 tdalton

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 02:09 PM

I very much doubt that he is.  This is the same director who either couldn't spot, or didn't care about, the gaping gaps in logic in Skyfall.



#322 kneelbeforezod

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 02:35 PM

Regardless of how they ultimately get there, the idea of Bond and Oberhauser being childhood friends 

Not that this will make any difference to how you feel, and it's probably just a figure of speech, but I highly doubt they will ever have been friends. The same foster parents maybe. Oberhauser always hated Bond, Bond probably didn't give a damn about him either way. 



#323 Guy Haines

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 04:12 PM

Indeed. Fostering doesn't mean the children fostered are necessarily related or even friendly, just that they have a legal guardian, even if only for a relatively short time. We know from the March trailer that that is the case with Bond. How long he was under the senior Oberhauser's guardianship we don't yet know - but long enough to have made an enemy of Franz Oberhauser.

(Always assuming, of course, that Franz Oberhauser really is Franz Oberhauser, and not an imposter - a possibility considered, not least by yours truly, on this thread.)

#324 tdalton

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 09:50 PM

 

Regardless of how they ultimately get there, the idea of Bond and Oberhauser being childhood friends 

Not that this will make any difference to how you feel, and it's probably just a figure of speech, but I highly doubt they will ever have been friends. The same foster parents maybe. Oberhauser always hated Bond, Bond probably didn't give a damn about him either way. 

 

 

Just a figure of speech.  Even if they outright hated each other as children, it's still a pretty cliche storyline to go ahead and say that one went on to become the world's foremost spy/assassin and the other went on to become "Blofeld".

 

Had the script for Skyfall not been riddled with gaps in logic and plotholes, I might be willing to give them some kind of benefit of the doubt here, but since this is the same creative team returning, I'm worried that they're going to steer this thing into Austin Powers in Goldmember territory.



#325 Royal Dalton

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 12:55 AM

It's a terrible idea, whichever way you cut it.



#326 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 04:26 AM

 

 

Regardless of how they ultimately get there, the idea of Bond and Oberhauser being childhood friends 

Not that this will make any difference to how you feel, and it's probably just a figure of speech, but I highly doubt they will ever have been friends. The same foster parents maybe. Oberhauser always hated Bond, Bond probably didn't give a damn about him either way. 

 

 

Just a figure of speech.  Even if they outright hated each other as children, it's still a pretty cliche storyline to go ahead and say that one went on to become the world's foremost spy/assassin and the other went on to become "Blofeld".

 

Had the script for Skyfall not been riddled with gaps in logic and plotholes, I might be willing to give them some kind of benefit of the doubt here, but since this is the same creative team returning, I'm worried that they're going to steer this thing into Austin Powers in Goldmember territory.

 

 

I respect your opinion - but what´s clichéd about that storyline?



#327 tdalton

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 04:32 AM

I just feels like something that's been done to death.  Austin Powers has already pre-empted it as far as Bond is concerned.  Everyone is worried about having to reclaim things from Austin Powers (such as Blofeld and his cat), and then we're just supposed to sit there and watch EON in turn rip off Austin Powers?  Doesn't sit well with me at all, I'm afraid.

 

"Cliche" might not be the right word, although I'm sure that there have been plenty of forms of media that have examined that exact same storyline.  "Cliche" is an attempt at being diplomatic with my opinion of the storyline that EON seems hellbent on pursuing.  Perhaps "silly" or, with all due respect to the creative team, "stupid" would have been better, as the idea of having to watch Bond battle a childhood acquaintance (or friend, or adopted brother) after just having had him work out his mommy issues in Skyfall is just way too much. 



#328 Walecs

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 08:35 AM

Although they are still denying that Oberhauser is Blofeld - it really would not make sense to establish someone as the head of SPECTRE (especially in that jacket) and then give him another name.

 

Unless, of course, the real Blofeld will be revealed at the end, and Oberhauser is just one Largo-kind of No.1.

 

I would love that, actually, and I would love it even more if Oberhauser were then eliminated by Blofeld for attracting attention to SPECTRE with a personal vendetta.

 

This post makes me wish that you wrote the script for SPECTRE.



#329 Guy Haines

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 08:53 AM

As with all these things, it depends how it's done. I hope the Bond-link-with-villain theme, if that's what we're looking at, can be done convincingly, and I think there may be ways it could be.

It has been done before, in print. Raymond Benson's novel "Never Dream Of Dying" - Bond and the villain of the "Union" trilogy, Le Gerant, are related through Bond's marriage to Tracy Di Vicenzo. Not of course a link based on childhood, but a link nevertheless.

If this is part of the SPECTRE story I just hope it can be carried off in some way, and doesn't turn out to be, if you'll pardon me saying so, "the weakest link". ;-)

#330 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 09:34 AM

I just feels like something that's been done to death.  Austin Powers has already pre-empted it as far as Bond is concerned.  Everyone is worried about having to reclaim things from Austin Powers (such as Blofeld and his cat), and then we're just supposed to sit there and watch EON in turn rip off Austin Powers?  Doesn't sit well with me at all, I'm afraid.

 

"Cliche" might not be the right word, although I'm sure that there have been plenty of forms of media that have examined that exact same storyline.  "Cliche" is an attempt at being diplomatic with my opinion of the storyline that EON seems hellbent on pursuing.  Perhaps "silly" or, with all due respect to the creative team, "stupid" would have been better, as the idea of having to watch Bond battle a childhood acquaintance (or friend, or adopted brother) after just having had him work out his mommy issues in Skyfall is just way too much. 

 

I understand.

 

Personally, I would have preferred a simple mission for SPECTRE, without any personal stakes, apart from building up the animosity between Bond and Blofeld.

 

But there seems to be a desire to root everything in personal issues these days, not only when it comes down to Bond films.  In every development meeting a writer is always given a mandate: make it more emotional, we need more heart, it has to be personal.

 

Which always means: we need to connect with the characters´ motives by making them as basic as possible.  That´s why so many pictures always deal with the estranged lover or the estranged father, desperately trying to prove themselves in order to establish a classic family unit.

 

I´m not saying that these basic emotional ties are wrong, they actually do connect with the majority of audiences because they reflect the social norm.

 

It just becomes very clichéd and does not leave room for different, unusual and therefore more interesting ideas.

 

And you know what started this craving for "EMOTION"?

 

"Titanic".  The basic love story at the core of that, as corny and simplistic and, um, unrealistic as ist was, made too many audiences shill out their bucks.

 

After that, every executive wanted that kind of dynamic in every picture.

 

And it trickled down into every genre.

 

Nowadays, even an action thriller - like a Bond film - is loaded up with emotional ties for the main character to the max.  Everything must always be personal.  Anything else, so the thinking goes, won´t have enough impact.

 

I don´t subscribe to that view, and it drains the fun out of many films which could have told much more straightforward stories.

 

But maybe audiences are beginning to get tired of it a bit.  The biggest moneymaker of the year (so far) seems to be "JURASSIC WORLD".  Sure, Howard´s character has ties to her nephews, but she hardly knows their names and has other things to do then proving to be a nice aunt after all, and Chris Pratt´s character, while interested sexually in her, is basically trying to survive.   No exaggeration of the love story was needed.

 

"Terminator Genisys", apart from being misconceived in every way, suffers badly from making Schwarzenegger a surrogate father to Sarah Connor, and the love story with Reese tries to be VERY EMOTIONAL but falters early on and stops the narrative every time.  Audiences were not amused.

 

I´m not saying that deep emotional bonds have no place in genre films, however.  They can work wonders and add dimensions to the characters.  But when they aren´t handled well they overpower everything else.

 

As you know, I love SKYFALL and Mendes´ work.  So I´m giving him credit and hope that the Bond-Oberhauser-dynamic will be done with taste and intellect.

 

I´m not afraid of AUSTIN POWERS, however.  At all.  Those films were mainly joking about the Connery and Moore films, a bygone era.  And they themselves have dropped off the public´s radar.  Sure, some journalists will throw the name around sometimes, but I doubt that many of the key demographic audiences have even seen them or know who Mike Myers is.  Since they probably haven´t seen a lot of the old Bond films, they will hardly think of AUSTIN POWERS when they watch Bond films of the Craig era.

 

And I can´t imagine Sam Mendes aiming that low.