462 replies to this topic

[x007AceOfSpades]

Scenario 3.

[whitesox]

2, by far.

[Call Billy Bob]

Number 3

[Vauxhall]

Interesting questions, and good options. My preference would be Scenario 2, but that's not necessarily what I think we're going to get.

[Marcin]

Scenario 1 would be most reasonable.

Scenario 2 is, in my opinion, unlikely since Bond and Waltz's character have met before ("Welcome James. It's been a long time" - okay, I admit this phrase can mean everything). 

Scenario 3 is very likely. It wouldn't be my choice though.

[Guy Haines]

I prefer scenario 2 - as mentioned it ties in to the source material still further with the murder of Oberhauser senior by Smythe. If it is 2 can I offer a way out of the "it's been a long time" problem mentioned?

 

Blofeld may have stolen Franz's identity - and his dad's money - years ago, but only recently realised that the British agent who had caused so much trouble for Quantum was the same person who was temporarily adopted by Oberhauser senior. Blofeld would have done his research about the identity he had stolen and the family he is pretending to be part of. An unlikely co-incidence I know but it wouldn't have been the first in a Bond film, even one based mostly on a Fleming novel.

 

So, "it's been a long time" might occur when Oberhauser/Blofeld(?) finally meets Bond and might be his way of teasing or needling him, as the villains in this film tend to do. But, Bond has a secret - as the trailer goes one he can't tell anyone because he doesn't trust anyone and it may be to do with the real Franz. Something the fake - Blofeld - doesn't know. And it may be that which leads Bond to realise that "Oberhauser" isn't the older incarnation of the young man he knew years ago.

 

If Oberhauser does turn out to be ESB, my guess is the great reveal comes at the very end of Spectre, as with Eve and Miss Moneypenny in SF. The identity is discovered one way or another, and we're left with the realisation that Bond has been battling Blofeld in this film all along.

 

(Usual caveat for this thread though; all of the above assumes Blofeld is in this film at all!)

[Marcin]

But why would he steal Franz's identity? That's the most intriguing part in all this.

[Guy Haines]

Something to do with the stolen fortune - stolen gold in the original short story Octopussy? Having bumped off Oberhauser senior and junior he felt the need to retain their background - which might have been respectable (Another link to Fleming source material - Blofeld's desire for the right family background in OHMSS.)

 

I can imagine a scenario where Franz Oberhauser is outwardly respectable (Aren't they all, these Bond villains?) but covertly heads SPECTRE, and having acquired the Oberhauser identity discovers that the one man who could undo it all was under temporary guardianship of Oberhauser senior, knew Oberhauser junior in his youth, and has been the bane of Quantum/SPECTRE since the Casino Royale affair. To quote the late 006 - "one of life's little ironies"!

[Moneyofpropre]

Well, for have good theorie, we need to know who is exactly Oberhauser in the novel. This french article is a complet resume completly who is Hannes Oberhauser who didn't apear just in Octopussy : https://translate.go...t-text=&act=url

Edited by Moneyofpropre, 06 June 2015 - 03:25 PM.

[Hansen]

A

[Hansen]

I have a bad feeling about this.
Looks like that they are about to wwastethe great character that Blofeld is.
My fear is that they use him like the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, which would simply awful

[SecretAgentFan]

Well, I loved the Mandarin-reveal in "Iron Man 3"!

 

But I don´t think the tone of a Marvel pic and a Bond film are alike.  So, no reason to get a bad feeling about this.

[Guy Haines]

Usual caveat - Oberhauser may not be Blofeld at all. But assuming he really is, I have a feeling this identity business may be a recycling of the old "villain seeking respectability" trope which we saw in OHMSS. A few months back I read a comment from Christoph Waltz about Franz Oberhauser claiming that he is a businessman whose ambition is to keep the people of the world safe.

 

Sounds a little like that "true humanitarian", Count De Bleauchamp?

 

The only difference, if I'm proved right - a big "if" - is that when Blofeld became Bleauchamp he was already established as a major league criminal and Bond's nemesis and was seeking a way to get the world's authorities off his back (At least that was his motivation in the movie - in the book SPECTRE was acting as a sub contractor for the Russians.)

 

Whereas here, in the film Spectre, we don't know if Oberhauser is Blofeld at all, but we're told by the actor playing him that he has an outwardly respectable image. Which, as I mentioned in my last contribution here, might have come from identity theft, along with his money.

 

One weakness in my view, I admit, is if the world hasn't even heard of Blofeld yet, why change identity already? Well, in the book Thunderball we're told that ESB was a serial identity changer - not only buying passports to elude the authorities, creating new identities when in different parts of the world, and having new backgrounds ready when the time to flee arrived. But also borrowing the identities of real people as his "spy network" - when in fact it was ESB doing the spying - so he could pay off multiple agents who weren't working for him - pocketing the money for himself. Plus, he even destroyed his own record of birth, so that legally he didn't exist.

 

The Blofeld of the Fleming novels was chameleon - it wouldn't surprise me if this is somehow reflected if he returns on screen.

[Guy Haines]

Coming back to this thread post July trailer, one can't help but notice the various references to classic Bond films in the said trailer short.

Earlier today, again on another thread, I wondered about the reference to YOLT - would we get one. Then it dawned on me - with those CGI face markers on Christoph Waltz - which anyone paying attention to filming reports would know about - we may have our YOLT throwback - or even further back.

Perhaps Spectre - part of this rebooted, reworked world of Bond in which we suspend disbelief and accept we're watching 007 re-set in our the current era - will reveal how the head of the organisation became facially scarred. We know, of course, that in the pre-Craig era Blofeld underwent various changes of actors, only one of whom wore that scar - but it's that which audiences tend to recall, along with the cat.

None of which means we are any the wiser at the moment as to whether Oberhauser = Blofeld. Whether Blofeld is a name he assumes later on, or is revealed to have been his real name.

Incidentally, I thought about another reason why Oberhauser might be ESB recently. It turns the family history theme of OHMSS around. ESB might have realised that 007 was responsible for the debacle of Le Chiffre losing all that money betting the wrong way on the stock exchange and was indeed the "author of all (his) pain" from the point Vesper Lynd came on the scene to the point M six years later. He's targeted 007 as a personal revenge for SPECTRE but it has been long and slow, and now comes to the boil in the new movie.

But to make it very personal, ESB has done his homework about Bond - researched the family tree and background, just as Bond did about Blofeld in OHMSS - and discovered Franz Oberhauser, and has taken on his identity, perhaps even changing his appearance through surgery (He's done it before, in the book OHMSS).

So in this new film, Bond is led to believe that a childhood acquaintance is now a deadly enemy - when it could be the enemy is in fact an imposter very well informed about Bond.

Another daft idea I freely admit, and come the autumn I'll if I'm close to the truth or nowhere near it!

[stromberg]

Another daft idea I freely admit, and come the autumn I'll if I'm close to the truth or nowhere near it!

Frankly said, I hope you're nowhere near it.

My current guess is that Blofeld is the name he adopted years ago (for whatever reason) and which he uses. And after Bond sees his face, he knows that his real name is Franz Oberhauser, his childhood friend. Matches with what Waltz said: "The character I play is named Franz Oberhauser." and he's still Blofeld.

[tdalton]

Coming back to this thread post July trailer, one can't help but notice the various references to classic Bond films in the said trailer short.

Earlier today, again on another thread, I wondered about the reference to YOLT - would we get one. Then it dawned on me - with those CGI face markers on Christoph Waltz - which anyone paying attention to filming reports would know about - we may have our YOLT throwback - or even further back.

Perhaps Spectre - part of this rebooted, reworked world of Bond in which we suspend disbelief and accept we're watching 007 re-set in our the current era - will reveal how the head of the organisation became facially scarred. We know, of course, that in the pre-Craig era Blofeld underwent various changes of actors, only one of whom wore that scar - but it's that which audiences tend to recall, along with the cat.

None of which means we are any the wiser at the moment as to whether Oberhauser = Blofeld. Whether Blofeld is a name he assumes later on, or is revealed to have been his real name.

Incidentally, I thought about another reason why Oberhauser might be ESB recently. It turns the family history theme of OHMSS around. ESB might have realised that 007 was responsible for the debacle of Le Chiffre losing all that money betting the wrong way on the stock exchange and was indeed the "author of all (his) pain" from the point Vesper Lynd came on the scene to the point M six years later. He's targeted 007 as a personal revenge for SPECTRE but it has been long and slow, and now comes to the boil in the new movie.

But to make it very personal, ESB has done his homework about Bond - researched the family tree and background, just as Bond did about Blofeld in OHMSS - and discovered Franz Oberhauser, and has taken on his identity, perhaps even changing his appearance through surgery (He's done it before, in the book OHMSS).

So in this new film, Bond is led to believe that a childhood acquaintance is now a deadly enemy - when it could be the enemy is in fact an imposter very well informed about Bond.

Another daft idea I freely admit, and come the autumn I'll if I'm close to the truth or nowhere near it!

I'd much prefer this to the whole idea of Bond and Blofeld being childhood friends now pitted against one another. That, combined with the seemingly never ending parade of self-referential moments it looks like we're getting, could cause the film to venture too far into Austin Powers territory.

[Guy Haines]

I think what Stromberg suggests, if I've got it right - the villain is known as Blofeld, but only Bond knows he is really Franz Oberhauser - does have the benefit of simplicity. Whether Bond fans familiar with the background of the Blofeld of the Ian Fleming novels will be comfortable with it remains to be seen - if, indeed it is the explanation of how Oberhauser can be Blofeld at the same time.

While staying true to the spirit of the Ian Fleming books, the films since 2006 have reworked the characters somewhat - Moneypenny, from field agent to office staffer being an example when there was not a hint of that in the novels or the pre-Craig films. So I suppose we shouldn't be surprised if "Blofeld"'s background story changes a bit, and this Blofeld-is-really-Oberhauser line might happen.

(Incidentally, though there was an extensive chapter about who Blofeld was in the novel Thunderball, in the films we never had a hint of where he came from - he was just "there".)

(Also, what's the betting, keeping it personal and linked to the source material, that we briefly glimpse Blofeld/Oberhauser's birthday - 28th May!)

[Hansen]

I always saw Blofeld as some kind of Pirate : no country, only profitable alliances. Crime is a busines and Blofeld is the CEO of the leading company. And that was a brilliant idea from Fleming
Any personal connection with Bond would be a non-sense.

[KM16]

It's got to be Scenario 3.

 

Too many lines of dialogue and interviews and common sense hint towards this. Waltz's character has a drawn-out hatred and jealousy of James that has lasted for decades based on this scenario. The way I see it, fate brings them back into eachother's orbit once again with the Royale-les-Eaux job, thus beginning Oberhauser's "authoring of all Bond's pain" as he and the Organization aka Quantum aka SPECTRE begin to set their sites on Bond for mucking up their operation. SPECTRE operatives think its just business but to Oberhauser, it's also personal. Now, with the events of this film, it's pretty much guaranteed Waltz gets his facial scars from set photos. Add to that I'm also certain he will learn what his true birth name is; Blofeld.

 

It just makes total sense when you think about it. It fits with the "re-tooling" they've been doing since 2006 but also pleases the casuals and the diehards with the name-drop and leads towards future sequel appearances (granted, of course, he doesn't get killed off in some grand fashion though I doubt they'd kill him off so soon).

Edited by KM16, 29 July 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Guy Haines]

Unless Oberhauser's true birth name really is Oberhauser and "Blofeld" is an alias he uses.

I'm playing devil's advocate here after all I've cluttered up this thread with in the past few months, but supposing, as stromberg has suggested, Blofeld is the name he is known as to all and sundry in SPECTRE, but only Bond knows his true name?

In the book Thunderball, Blofeld neatly cut out all records of his birth and, legally, ceased to exist. Suppose Franz Oberhauser did the same and whilst doing so came across the name "Ernst Blofeld" and adopted that instead?

We've assumed the "big reveal" in Spectre - that Oberhauser is revealed in the final scenes as Blofeld, much as Eve is revealed as Moneypenny and Mallory becomes M.

Suppose the big reveal here is that a character called Blofeld, head of SPECTRE, is in fact Oberhauser junior, son of the man who became a father figure for Bond at a time when he needed one?

[thecasinoroyale]

If Oberhauser IS Blofeld, I hope the name Blofeld is given something more than just a random alias. That's TOO convenient and a big shoe-horn for me to get the name in along with SPECTRE.

 

Blofled has to be another name, or a factual meaning. It's too random just to pluck an alias...oh, er...I'll pick Blofeld.

 

I hope the name has more weight to if not a real name.

[Shrublands]

Unless Oberhauser's true birth name really is Oberhauser and "Blofeld" is an alias he uses.

I'm playing devil's advocate here after all I've cluttered up this thread with in the past few months, but supposing, as stromberg has suggested, Blofeld is the name he is known as to all and sundry in SPECTRE, but only Bond knows his true name?

 

 

I think it could be something like this but the other way round - That only Bond knows that his true, birth name is Blofeld. 

The Oberhausers foster Bond, one of the reasons a couple might foster kids is when they can't have children of their own... 

[Hansen]

All this seems very far-fetched.
I just hope that they are not going to waste such a great icon of Bond universe as they did with Judi Dench M

[Vauxhall]

Unless Oberhauser's true birth name really is Oberhauser and "Blofeld" is an alias he uses.
I'm playing devil's advocate here after all I've cluttered up this thread with in the past few months, but supposing, as stromberg has suggested, Blofeld is the name he is known as to all and sundry in SPECTRE, but only Bond knows his true name?

 
I think it could be something like this but the other way round - That only Bond knows that his true, birth name is Blofeld. 
The Oberhausers foster Bond, one of the reasons a couple might foster kids is when they can't have children of their own...

I feel we're heading in that direction too, but my issue would be, why wouldn't Bloferhauser know that too?

[Guy Haines]

Good point vauxhall, which is why "Blofeld" is really Oberhauser, not the other way around is beginning to make more sense to me.

(Unless - switching sides again - there's a good reason for Blofeld - if that's the real name - to adopt the cover of Franz Oberhauser. Perhaps one alias among many ESB has used - he used several in the novels - or for reasons we have discussed and debated many times on this cbn thread. Thankfully we are now only weeks away from knowing the truth.)

[Shrublands]

 

 

Unless Oberhauser's true birth name really is Oberhauser and "Blofeld" is an alias he uses.
I'm playing devil's advocate here after all I've cluttered up this thread with in the past few months, but supposing, as stromberg has suggested, Blofeld is the name he is known as to all and sundry in SPECTRE, but only Bond knows his true name?

 
I think it could be something like this but the other way round - That only Bond knows that his true, birth name is Blofeld. 
The Oberhausers foster Bond, one of the reasons a couple might foster kids is when they can't have children of their own...

I feel we're heading in that direction too, but my issue would be, why wouldn't Bloferhauser know that too?

 

 

Bloferhause was very young when adopted or, perhaps, he has some unresolved childhood trauma of his own.

He always counted himself as the Oberhausers real son, but information (possibly buried deep in the MI6 archive) says that he was adopted. 

Birth name Blofeld. 

[Guy Haines]

In which case; Bond's "secret" mentioned in the very first trailer in March - something to do with his childhood times in Austria - might not be a surprise to his employers. Which makes sense - if you employ an agent you should check the references and background.

It wouldn't surprise me therefore if Bond believes all the way through that Franz is Franz - discarding the theory that only Bond knows the real identity - but that his employers - through M or Q - provide the big "reveal" at the end of the movie - that they knew all along about Bond's time in Austria and the real identity of Franz Oberhauser.

If this thread has done one thing, it's made us consider a theory, champion it, then think again. I've done it three times in as many days! :-)

[Shrublands]

I'm hoping that if / when this unfolds, it's not done as a big reveal at the very end, but a slow burn reveal with us and Bond given the information in time for them to make something dramatic out of it.

 

I think the whole Bloferhause thing is going to be key to how this story works.

[Guy Haines]

I actually agree with shrublands. For one thing the "big reveals" in SF, on reflection you could see a mile off - Judi Dench's last movie, Ralph Fiennes lined up as a successor and Naomi Harris as Moneypenny.

M and Moneypenny were set up as the surprises at the end - and I did hear one female member of the audience exclaim "Oh. she's Miss Moneypenny!" - but you could see the direction the film was travelling.

Better as shrublands suggests we are given clues along the way rather than us being told explicitly that Oberhauser is Oberhauser throughout, only to learn five minutes before the end that he's really ESB. Although the hints are already there in the trailers - the board meeting, the style of jacket and so on.

[kneelbeforezod]

The question that keeps bugging me is this: assuming Blofeld/Oberhauser knew Bond during childhood... can the filmmakers make this work without audiences rolling their eyes? If they suggest that his creation of a global criminal empire was motivated by his hated/jealousy of Bond, it's going to take some very good writing to not make that seem completely ridiculous.

 

Then again, maybe the global criminal empire is its own thing, and getting revenge on Bond is just a bonus.

 

Either way, I think it's going to be very tricky to write. If it's particularly well written, I guess it could add an extra layer of drama and emotional resonance?

 

I just can't make my mind up about this!