1942 replies to this topic

[Guy Haines]

So does this mean we have to let the Bond who just kept going for Queen and Country behind when he "retired" in 2002, and instead have him with far more personal demons and motives than before until he finds some sort of resolution to decide what to do with his life?
 
Or when Craig's journey comes to an end, is it another "reboot" to have a new version of James Bond not always hurting and acting like a rogue man with a personal mission to accomplish?

 
I see the problem, having only four films so far with Craig-Bond, and all of them depict situations that are tied to certain emotional stages within his life as a secret agent.
 
But that, I suppose, is just what the arc of this era is all about.  We witness the personal side of Bond, something that has not been presented in such magnitude before.
 
That does not mean, however, that he is not motivated by his duty.  He actually is in all three films (and I guess it won´t be different in SPECTRE).  It´s just that duty and the protection of Queen and Country are tangled up with personal demons.
 
- In CR, he wants to stop LeChiffre and sabotage the terrorist network, and he does, almost losing his life and the one person that loves him.  The idea of quitting is already strengthened here, but it falls together with his reconvalescing.  And he quickly is back on the job.
 
- In QOS, he actually says he is motivated by his duty.  Of course, he is driven by revenge, too.  But it´s not as if he were letting his job slide to pursue something else.  Again, emotional stakes are coupled with his professional goals.  In the end, he chooses to be professional, not killing the man who recruited Vesper but allowing him to be captured.
 
- In SF, he starts out on a mission that only becomes personal when M risks his life.  When he goes after Silva, again he is mostly driven by his urge to prove M that he can do his job.
 
I suspect, SPECTRE starts out the same way, and when he discovers that he has been a puppet for Oberhauser´s strings all along there is no alternative to fight that (while also fighting a terrorist origanization threatening the whole world).  But Bond must notice that he always is a pawn, for his superiors and for his foes.  It´s a natural step to re-think this and to ask: is this really the life I want?

That's a pretty good analysis of the Craig era Bond films and the approach to Bond. Right from the opening scenes of CR 2006 this has been a series of films "about" James Bond as much as "James Bond films". I've posted before on the site, there is a difference.

I've just watched the snippets of the Sam Smith music video - walking in front of the Union Jack draped coffins from SF. Taken with the lyrics from the song it seems to be about Bond finally facing his demons - one in particular, Oberhauser - and having found someone - Madeleine Swann? - that he'd give it all up for, before it's too late ("the writing's on the wall").

Ironic if Bond genuinely fell in love with the daughter of the man responsible for the death of his first love, I think.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I finally got to listen to Sam Smith's Writing's On The Wall. I've heard it five times now and before I give my verdict, let me first say that when I heard Smith was going to be singing the new James Bond theme song I went and listened to two of his songs and didn't like either one. I couldn't stand his falsetto bits AT ALL. So it was with much trepidation that I waited to hear WOTW. In the meantime, I kept up with everything by reading everyone's comments this past week about the song and I found myself thinking that I would probably not like it and almost hoping I would hate it (which I've never done for a Bond song) as I felt the falsetto bits would once again be too much to bear.

 

Well, I have to say that WOTW is decent, no more, no less. It could definitely be better, but it's not the train wreck I feared it could be. The music is solid, Smith's normal singing voice is fine, but his falsetto once again detracts from the song, and it is totally unnecessary. If he sang normally throughout the song, it could be a middle of the road effort. As it stands, the song is a bottom five for me. WOTW is definitely a Sam Smith song with all that that implies. He undeniably has talent, but he also can't keep himself from unleashing his distracting falsetto. But having said that, the falsetto is not as cringe-worthy as I'd feared it would be, however it still jars. I will agree the falsetto does take away some of Bond's masculinity, but again, compared to previous Smith efforts, it could have been worse. Also, at the end he holds the final note for five seconds and then suddenly stops singing and it just leaves the listener hanging. You can't help but feel that he should have held it for another three to five seconds to cap off the song with a powerful ending. A missed opportunity there I feel.

 

So ultimately, WOTW is probably about the best we could have hoped for from Smith (faint praise I know), but it's not a disaster, and again the music part is a solid listen and Thomas Newman should be able to use it to compliment the film pretty easily. As for the poll results, my picks are: 1) it's a mixed bag, 2) You Know My Name is my favorite Daniel Craig song, 3) WOTW is my least favorite Craig song, and I chose that the song 4) grows like a radish, though I wish there was a third option: it grows like hair--some places it's good like the hair on your head and some places it's a nuisance such as the hair growing on your back and out of your ears and nose. That pretty much typifies Writing's On The Wall.

[Odd Jobbies]

 

I'd have to lose respect for Mendes as an artist if he truly thought the falsetto sections were worthy, but he'd lose no sleep over my opinion. However i'd like to think he might stir a little if a majority of fans on a major Bond forum agreed to dislike it and that's precisely what we have here.

 

Oh...careful there. We tend to spend a lot of time with Bond here obviously. And as fans we of course spend lots of time on CBn, so much so we tend to notice when our opinion is mirrored by others - and ignore when it's not. But it's still nowhere near representative; I think only sales/downloads/streams will come close to give an idea how much this song connects or fails to connect. There was no doubt Smith's work would polarise to some extent; I would have been astonished if it hadn't. But lots of fans seem to have bought it, too, either blind or because they really liked it. So stirred Mendes might be, but he will hardly question his judgement if WOTW was really fitting in his view.

Personally, I didn't listen to most Bond songs after Goldeneye. Skyfall changed that, up to a point, until its charm waned for me. Now there's one more that doesn't sit too well with me, no big deal. I've come to accept that these songs are now no longer aimed specifically at me. It's fine if one does but I don't expect it any more.

 

The operative word there was 'I'd like to think...'  

[Dustin]

Indeed!

[Walecs]

I finally got to listen to Sam Smith's Writing's On The Wall. I've heard it five times now and before I give my verdict, let me first say that when I heard Smith was going to be singing the new James Bond theme song I went and listened to two of his songs and didn't like either one. I couldn't stand his falsetto bits AT ALL. So it was with much trepidation that I waited to hear WOTW. In the meantime, I kept up with everything by reading everyone's comments this past week about the song and I found myself thinking that I would probably not like it and almost hoping I would hate it (which I've never done for a Bond song) as I felt the falsetto bits would once again be too much to bear.

 

Well, I have to say that WOTW is decent, no more, no less. It could definitely be better, but it's not the train wreck I feared it could be. The music is solid, Smith's normal singing voice is fine, but his falsetto once again detracts from the song, and it is totally unnecessary. If he sang normally throughout the song, it could be a middle of the road effort. As it stands, the song is a bottom five for me. WOTW is definitely a Sam Smith song with all that that implies. He undeniably has talent, but he also can't keep himself from unleashing his distracting falsetto. But having said that, the falsetto is not as cringe-worthy as I'd feared it would be, however it still jars. I will agree the falsetto does take away some of Bond's masculinity, but again, compared to previous Smith efforts, it could have been worse. Also, at the end he holds the final note for five seconds and then suddenly stops singing and it just leaves the listener hanging. You can't help but feel that he should have held it for another three to five seconds to cap off the song with a powerful ending. A missed opportunity there I feel.

 

So ultimately, WOTW is probably about the best we could have hoped for from Smith (faint praise I know), but it's not a disaster, and again the music part is a solid listen and Thomas Newman should be able to use it to compliment the film pretty easily. As for the poll results, my picks are: 1) it's a mixed bag, 2) You Know My Name is my favorite Daniel Craig song, 3) WOTW is my least favorite Craig song, and I chose that the song 4) grows like a radish, though I wish there was a third option: it grows like hair--some places it's good like the hair on your head and some places it's a nuisance such as the hair growing on your back and out of your ears and nose. That pretty much typifies Writing's On The Wall.

 

Worse than AWTD?

[bonds_walther]

I hope that's not a spoiler at the end of your post, fella.

 

Ironic if Bond genuinely fell in love with the daughter of the man responsible for the death of his first love, I think.

Edited by bonds_walther, 01 October 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[Emrayfo]

I hope that's not a spoiler at the end of your post, fella.
 

Ironic if Bond genuinely fell in love with the daughter of the man responsible for the death of his first love, I think.

Damn it Guy Haines, is that a spoiler?! :(

[mummyboy11]

 

I hope that's not a spoiler at the end of your post, fella.

 

Ironic if Bond genuinely fell in love with the daughter of the man responsible for the death of his first love, I think.

 

Humm... The lyrics do leave that possibility open. 

[univex]

 

I hope that's not a spoiler at the end of your post, fella.
 

Ironic if Bond genuinely fell in love with the daughter of the man responsible for the death of his first love, I think.

Damn it Guy Haines, is that a spoiler?! :(

 

 

Nah. Pure speculation. Don´t read too much into things on these last few days, you´ll get paranoid But it´s nice speculation, nonetheless. Just because it would be ironic. She is the Bond girl in this one, so falling in love here is very subjective. It really depends on the weight you put on that particular notion.

[Double-Oh Agent]

 

I finally got to listen to Sam Smith's Writing's On The Wall. I've heard it five times now and before I give my verdict, let me first say that when I heard Smith was going to be singing the new James Bond theme song I went and listened to two of his songs and didn't like either one. I couldn't stand his falsetto bits AT ALL. So it was with much trepidation that I waited to hear WOTW. In the meantime, I kept up with everything by reading everyone's comments this past week about the song and I found myself thinking that I would probably not like it and almost hoping I would hate it (which I've never done for a Bond song) as I felt the falsetto bits would once again be too much to bear.

 

Well, I have to say that WOTW is decent, no more, no less. It could definitely be better, but it's not the train wreck I feared it could be. The music is solid, Smith's normal singing voice is fine, but his falsetto once again detracts from the song, and it is totally unnecessary. If he sang normally throughout the song, it could be a middle of the road effort. As it stands, the song is a bottom five for me. WOTW is definitely a Sam Smith song with all that that implies. He undeniably has talent, but he also can't keep himself from unleashing his distracting falsetto. But having said that, the falsetto is not as cringe-worthy as I'd feared it would be, however it still jars. I will agree the falsetto does take away some of Bond's masculinity, but again, compared to previous Smith efforts, it could have been worse. Also, at the end he holds the final note for five seconds and then suddenly stops singing and it just leaves the listener hanging. You can't help but feel that he should have held it for another three to five seconds to cap off the song with a powerful ending. A missed opportunity there I feel.

 

So ultimately, WOTW is probably about the best we could have hoped for from Smith (faint praise I know), but it's not a disaster, and again the music part is a solid listen and Thomas Newman should be able to use it to compliment the film pretty easily. As for the poll results, my picks are: 1) it's a mixed bag, 2) You Know My Name is my favorite Daniel Craig song, 3) WOTW is my least favorite Craig song, and I chose that the song 4) grows like a radish, though I wish there was a third option: it grows like hair--some places it's good like the hair on your head and some places it's a nuisance such as the hair growing on your back and out of your ears and nose. That pretty much typifies Writing's On The Wall.

 

Worse than AWTD?

 

At the moment, yes. His falsetto is just too jarring and too much. If it wasn't for that, I think I would like it better than Another Way To Die and maybe a couple of others. I know I would certainly like the song better. But ultimately, the falsetto really hurts the song and it can't recover--and the sudden ending of the song that just leaves you hanging doesn't help either.

 

(By the way, Another Way To Die is not my least favorite Bond song.)

[Emrayfo]

 

 

I hope that's not a spoiler at the end of your post, fella.
 

Ironic if Bond genuinely fell in love with the daughter of the man responsible for the death of his first love, I think.

Damn it Guy Haines, is that a spoiler?! :(

 

 

Nah. Pure speculation. Don´t read too much into things on these last few days, you´ll get paranoid But it´s nice speculation, nonetheless. Just because it would be ironic. She is the Bond girl in this one, so falling in love here is very subjective. It really depends on the weight you put on that particular notion.

 

 

My concern about this being a spoiler reveal refers not to the love interest aspect but to the idea of Madeleine Swann being Oberhauser's daughter. If that is just speculation, then fine. But if it is based on actual knowledge then I am severely disappointed to have that revealed to me in a  thread about the theme song rather than sitting in the cinema watching the film.

[Guy Haines]

I hope that's not a spoiler at the end of your post, fella.
 

Ironic if Bond genuinely fell in love with the daughter of the man responsible for the death of his first love, I think.

Damn it Guy Haines, is that a spoiler?! :(

 
Nah. Pure speculation. Don´t read too much into things on these last few days, you´ll get paranoid But it´s nice speculation, nonetheless. Just because it would be ironic. She is the Bond girl in this one, so falling in love here is very subjective. It really depends on the weight you put on that particular notion.

 
My concern about this being a spoiler reveal refers not to the love interest aspect but to the idea of Madeleine Swann being Oberhauser's daughter. If that is just speculation, then fine. But if it is based on actual knowledge then I am severely disappointed to have that revealed to me in a  thread about the theme song rather than sitting in the cinema watching the film.

You've read my post dead wrong. It is common knowledge - in the updated plot scenario released in the summer - that Madeleine Swann is Mr White's daughter. All I was saying was that at the time White was responsible. He was the one Vesper was in contact with - she talked about 007 to him, remember? "I was always interested to meet you, I heard a lot about you from Vesper". White was, it seems the link man Vesper would have dealt with - Oberhauser hadn't even been heard of then. White would have been the one who said some thing like "Do as we say or your boyfriend is dead" to Vesper. He put the pressure on her, most likely, which led her to kill herself.

Sorry if anyone read the last sentence of my post thinking I meant Oberhauser - "the author of all Bond's pain" - but the father I meant was White, not him.

[bonds_walther]

Guy, I don't think you should be discussing the plot in a thread about the song. I've been staying as spoiler free as possible - which included not reading any detailed plot synopsis. Yes, I've watched the trailers. Yes, I read the short synopsis revealed last November. Other than that - nowt.

I'd expect that, in a thread discussing the merits of the song, these details were not revealed. At the very least, you could have used spoiler tags.

If at any point I want to know about plot, I'll head to the spoiler section.

[Guy Haines]

My mistake, and my apologies.

 

However, the lyrics and what they are about is speculation. Nothing more. I could have read something into it all which turns out to be dead wrong. I took the "scenario" leaked on line last year with a large dose of salt.

[mrmoon]

One thing has occured to me, after a recent visit to my local. It was karaoke night. "Skyfall" gets sung at this event from time to time.

I cannot see WOTW joining the list of karaoke tracks at my local. The vocal range would be way beyond even the best amateur vocalist there.

I've heard a few people say this. I hope this isn't the new benchmark for Bond themes, 'Well if it's not karaoke material, I'm out!'

[Emrayfo]

My mistake, and my apologies.
 
However, the lyrics and what they are about is speculation. Nothing more. I could have read something into it all which turns out to be dead wrong. I took the "scenario" leaked on line last year with a large dose of salt.

Guy I know it wasn't intentional of you to reveal spoiler-type details in a song discussion thread, but many of us have different levels of knowledge regarding the film and haven't read the scenario you mention. So now it seems you've replaced one spoiler idea in my head with another - I was completely unaware of the Swann-White link so thanks for nothing. Very disappointing.

[Royal Dalton]

I wouldn't worry too much about that particular piece of info. It isn't really spoilerific. We're told who Swann is before she even appears in the film.

[stromberg]

I wouldn't worry too much about that particular piece of info. It isn't really spoilerific. We're told who Swann is before she even appears in the film.

And it's also in the official summary.

[Dustin]

Gentlemen, while it's obviously disappointing for the spoiler-averse to learn about the film prior to seeing it in the cinema, it's probably inevitable the odd detail slips by, here or elsewhere, regardless of factual or speculative character. I faintly remember having read similar speculations before. Since the trailers indicate a more or less 'personal' story it's only fair to get ideas about its protagonists. I'm confident that - seen with perspective - details won't impair on the overall cinema experience.

[Toxteth_OGrady]

No 1

http://www.bbc.co.uk...t-arts-34425299

[tdalton]

Guy I know it wasn't intentional of you to reveal spoiler-type details in a song discussion thread, but many of us have different levels of knowledge regarding the film and haven't read the scenario you mention. So now it seems you've replaced one spoiler idea in my head with another - I was completely unaware of the Swann-White link so thanks for nothing. Very disappointing.

I feel your pain. It seems to always happen. Luckily the run-up to SPECTRE has featured less of these revelations from people in the know than the last couple of films have, as I can recall having major plot points ruined by people casually throwing them out there in clearly-marked non-spoiler sections of the forum, but it's still frustrating nonetheless.

[thecasinoroyale]

First Bond theme hit #1 in 53 years of the history? That's something to celebrate regardless of liking or not liking the song.

James Bond sells, and Sam Smith sells. The two together? Success to the masses.

[Harmsway]

It's #1 only in the UK. It plummeted on the US charts.

[sharpshooter]

No 1
http://www.bbc.co.uk...t-arts-34425299

Good result for the UK charts. I've warmed somewhat to the song. I'd give it a 7/10. I'm eager to hear the instrumental version in the film's score. Another Way to Die's instrumental was funky, but I couldn't really say I would've wanted to have heard that in the film proper. WOTW has the more mature, elegant meldody befitting a Bond movie.

[Simon]

Emrayfo - I might be missing some of the subtlety, but if you want to remain entirely spoiler free for a Bond film, don't visit a Bond site.

 

How much more simple can it be than that?

[Odd Jobbies]

Well done to Eon's marketing strategists - they've got exactly what they wished for. But it's surely not controversial to suggests that while a chart number one is certainly a stamp of financial success it is by no means stamp of critical approval.

[glidrose]

Emrayfo - I might be missing some of the subtlety, but if you want to remain entirely spoiler free for a Bond film, don't visit a Bond site.

 

How much more simple can it be than that?

 

 

I agree. There are spoilers, then there are spoilers. What our very fine contributor Guy Haines mentioned is a minor detail that the studio itself revealed.

 

If somebody is that spoiler adverse then one wonders why they're visiting a Bond site this late in the day. It's three weeks to the premiere.

 

Not everybody is this spoiler adverse as we learned in my "how spoiler adverse are you?" thread. http://debrief.comma...ree-discussion/

 

A true spoiler is what happens in the final scene - talk about ambiguous. Most audiences won't even pick up on it.

 

A true spoiler is what part Monica Bellucci plays in the film's second half.

 

A true spoiler explains how many scenes Christoph Waltz has in the film.

 

A true spoiler discusses the differences between the October and December 2014 drafts. Damn shame the latter draft dropped that wonderful "One Hour Photo" homage. Some people thought it was hokey. I disagree. I also liked the "Eyes Wide Shut" homage in the earlier draft too.

 

Sorry if I sound grouchy. Don't mean to be this hostile-sounding. Let's go get drinks at the Lounge of Solace. Mind the extinguisher foam. I got carried away at AMC Hornet's wedding reception. In retrospect it's a good thing Dustin and Stromberg got the speedboat keys away from me. Trying to recreate the "speedboat wrecks the wedding" stunt from LALD may have just possibly endangered lives. Especially with the lampshade super-glued over my head.

 

Oh yeah, and Rosebud is the sled. Tracy dies at the end. Kristatos is the villain. The Titanic sinks.

[Dustin]

Spoiler

No, they raise her again, I've seen the film

...

[Major Tallon]

Hi, Glidrose, There's a story about a family that booked a taxi to take them to see "The Mousetrap" in London.  Along the way, the father complained loudly and obnoxiously about the traffic, the British weather, the people, and, in sum, about everything.  They reached the theater and the man paid the exact fare due, with no tip.  Just before the man could close the taxi door, the driver smiled sweetly and said, "Thanks, guv.  The policeman did it." 

[thecasinoroyale]

DUSTIN! I...you've ruined everything for me now. Everythinnnnnnng!



Is this confirmed?