513 replies to this topic

[coco1997]

There has never been one timeline.

 

When Craig steps down they will either carry on with the same MI6 crew and a new actor (see Lazenby, Sir Roger or Dalton), take the current "M" and surround him with a new team and a new Bond (see Craig) - or they will re-cast everything (see Brosnan).

The first five actors to play Bond were all supposed to be the same person, despite how illogical that may have been. Hence the occasional references to previous films in the franchise.

[Dustin]

I'm not really interested in reading the last 14 pages, so I have to ask this: Are those in the pro-Elba camp in favor of a 'black Bond' succeeding Craig in the same timeline or in the next reboot, whenever that may be?

I suppose few people really give this deeper thought, just because only few people see it as a realistic option at the moment. Going by our current poll the majority apparently thinks Elba is too old anyway. This is not exactly the same as saying he'd be a realistic contender, mind you. But it definitely doesn't exclude him from the role solely based on the pigmentation in his skin.

But I get what you mean, you are not in favour of yet another reboot. Frankly, neither am I. But today it would seem the question of reboot or not comes up with every new script and director. If we take a look at the production of some films it would actually seem reboots have lurked behind the scenes for some time already before we got hit over the head with them. Since today the conditions to make these films are vastly different from those of the 'classic' days (for lack of a better expression) it's just reasonable to expect there could be further reboots down the line. Whenever the industry - for this is in the end their decision - sees fit to do so.

In the end timelines are very much a concern for a specific kind of niche fan, those of us dedicated to fandom to the point where we feel a need to categorise and explain, to bring some kind of order into the object of our affection. But it's important to remember this series just grew, without a thought for timelines or plausibility. That's what we inject retroactively to keep us occupied. The banal truth looks different, namely that a couple of people with the rights to do so meet a couple of people with the necessary funds and they just say 'let's do another one' and that's it. Everything else is pretty much up in the air.

Edited by Dustin, 27 December 2014 - 06:19 PM.

[archer1949]

I don't know. If it were any other character, I would say "why not"? But i am very protective of Bond and am leery of this kind of radical casting change just for the sake of it.

[tdalton]

Elba isn't going to be Bond, so all of this discussion is pretty much a moot point.  The man will simply be too old for the part once it becomes available.

 

That said, changing the color of Bond's skin doesn't bother me.  EON has changed so much about Bond over the years that it would seem a bit disingenuous to get upset about a change like this.  That said, I can't say that I'd get excited about Elba as Bond.  That feeling doesn't have anything to do with his skin color but moreso the fact that I just don't see him as Bond.  He's a good actor, yes, but I just don't see him being a particularly engaging Bond, especially on he heels of someone who has been as dynamic in the role as Craig has been.

[Vauxhall]

Mr Elba himself has entered the discussion...
https://twitter.com/...874165399601152

[coco1997]

In the end timelines are very much a concern for a specific kind of niche fan, those of us dedicated to fandom to the point where we feel a need to categorise and explain, to bring some kind of order into the object of our affection. But it's important to remember this series just grew, without a thought for timelines or plausibility. That's what we inject retroactively to keep us occupied.

I disagree with this, as I feel the general public would be confused by Bond dramatically changing in appearance after over fifty years and twenty-four films of the character being played by men that all more or less fit a very similar profile. CASINO ROYALE didn't declare itself a reboot because EON cast a blonde, somewhat shorter than usual and not traditionally handsome bloke--it did so through the story itself. I can only speak from personal experience, but most of my friends and family who are only casual fans of the franchise realized that Daniel Craig is playing a modern re-imagining of the character and not the same man portrayed by five actors between 1962-2002.

 

This is why I think the only way a 'black Bond' would work would be if it were to accompany another reboot. If people choose to reject it due to some deep-seated or subconscious prejudice, then that's their problem.

[sunset]

There are many other young "guns" that I would like to see be the next Bond.  A starting age of around 32 or so.  I think Bond should never look old.  I am 60 years old, and I have enjoyed all the Bonds.  A Black Bond would be interesting, but I feel Fleming's Bond has a history and heratige that would be challenged by my concept - if a Black actor took over the roll.   I also said the same thing about any actor under six foot tall or Blond!  I was wrong then...!

[glidrose]

There has never been one timeline.
 
When Craig steps down they will either carry on with the same MI6 crew and a new actor (see Lazenby, Sir Roger or Dalton), take the current "M" and surround him with a new team and a new Bond (see Craig) - or they will re-cast everything (see Brosnan).

*cough* Q *cough*. Oh well, two out of three ain't bad.

[Blofeld's Cat]

I like Bond just the way he is, just as I like Shaft he way he is.

[glidrose]

Where do we draw the line?

A Black Bond?

A female Bond?

An American Bond? Perhaps reboot the character. His parents own a duck farm in Louisiana.

A Canadian Bond? *shudders* (Hi AMC! )

[MrKidd]

Cripes - format of this site just as bad as when I last posted! Is there any way I can type into a box bigger than a postage stamp?

Regardless I'd like to have my two penneth - I'm less interested in black vs. white bond myself (and as for Fleming I'm sure he didn't envisage a Bond looking like Mr Craig either) but more on the specifics of Mr Elba. From what I've seen he reminds me of Clive Owen - except, obviously, you know, not a cracker - by that I mean very handsome, very 'solid' but rather uninspired and uninteresting. Despite him being a black guy I would regard casting him as an uninspired safe option. No thanks.

[JCRendle]

Where do we draw the line?

A Black Bond?

A female Bond?

An American Bond? Perhaps reboot the character. His parents own a duck farm in Louisiana.

A Canadian Bond? *shudders* (Hi AMC! )

 

[Dustin]

Would audiences be confused? I'm not so sure...

We - fans, most of us for many years or even decades - of course tend to care more for the character than the average viewer. It's natural for us to assume the crowds flock into theatres to see Bond, the character. Everybody says so, how could they not?

But for many people that may not be the main attraction. What they want to see is some cool guy with a slightly larger than life style, a handsome ladykiller and tough bloke inside a plot of roughly two hours of extraordinary suspense and action, bizarre deaths, beautiful women and expensive bling. Every now and then there is a Union Jack slapped in-between the brand logos, giving that bit of connection to the United Kingdom needed in times when it's becoming increasingly irrelevant outside these films.

But the actual character of Bond?

When I look through the threads of CBn (or if absolutely necessary MI6) concerning themselves with future films - or the current one in production - there is an interesting thing to witness. A number of voices calls out for an end to the psychobabble and peeling of layers, calls for a return to the straight adventures of the Goldfinger days.

Coming from fans engaged in the series far beyond what you'd expect from the average audience to me this hints at a surprising idea. Perhaps the character of Bond is not nearly as interesting or important for audiences as the whole mix? Is it possible that, as long as the mixture is still intact, the character can be reduced to the point of not-being-there without undue damage to the success of the product? Some entries in the series surely seem to indicate this possibility. If you spin this a little further...could it be the presence of Bond's character actively disturbs viewers? Is there a maximum limit of Bond presence that mustn't be exceeded lest the balance of the whole show is threatened by too much emphasis on the hero's person?

This is in effect only an aside to the topic, not really concerning the crucial matters of black or white. But I seriously doubt audiences could truly be confused by a casting choice. They can accept it or leave it. But to me it's hardly conceivable people sit in a Bond film for two hours and wonder who Bond is or when he turns up.

[lonestar]

I think the real issue here is a lack of roles for  People of color. Why does Hollywood insist on "re imagining" characters and re making older movies to feature an actor of color? ( I know, I know, it's easier, it's a  sure thing, movies are now too big of an investment to not guarantee a return, etc.)  Am I wrong in thinking it is patronizing to the black audience, the Hispanic audience, the Asian audience, the female audience etc., etc., that Hollywood cannot or will not create original  characters featuring the many good black actors, Hispanic actors, Asian actors, female actors. etc.?

     How hard  would it be too cast  Elba as 008? A brand new character that can go places a white Bond can't. And create a  companion series that nods at Bond as it's progenitor, but can now tell stories and create characters Bond can't.

[JSDude1]

In the spirit of that Idea, why not make a spinoff series with Jeffrey Wright's 'Felix Leiter' as the star (with whoever is James Bond as a reoccurring guest star)?  Could be the solution to this idea?

[graric]

I think the real issue here is a lack of roles for  People of color. Why does Hollywood insist on "re imagining" characters and re making older movies to feature an actor of color? ( I know, I know, it's easier, it's a  sure thing, movies are now too big of an investment to not guarantee a return, etc.)  Am I wrong in thinking it is patronizing to the black audience, the Hispanic audience, the Asian audience, the female audience etc., etc., that Hollywood cannot or will not create original  characters featuring the many good black actors, Hispanic actors, Asian actors, female actors. etc.?

     How hard  would it be too cast  Elba as 008? A brand new character that can go places a white Bond can't. And create a  companion series that nods at Bond as it's progenitor, but can now tell stories and create characters Bond can't.

...Despite what a lot of Hollywood Studios tend to think, remaking older films isn't the sure thing for success that most tend to assume (see the recent high profile flops like Dirty Dancing, RoboCop, Total Recall etc.) And your request for Idris Elba to be cast as a black 008, 'that can go the places a white Bond can't' seem to miss that Idris has said he doesn't want to be just cast as 'the black Bond' (i.e. telling the spy stories with a focus on the characters race, and making the series about being black) and it is also not the reason people want Idris to play Bond.
We're not asking for the series to be about Bond as a black spy, with his race being an essential part of the series, the request for Idris are based on the belief he is the actor out there that best embodies the essential traits of the cinematic James Bond.

 

As for a companion series, given Eon is starting to fall into a 3 year pattern per single film, I can't see them being able to pull of creating a Bond spin-off series without creating more delays in the main series (and without the name recognition of being a 'James Bond film' how well would the spin-off really do?)

In the spirit of that Idea, why not make a spinoff series with Jeffrey Wright's 'Felix Leiter' as the star (with whoever is James Bond as a reoccurring guest star)?  Could be the solution to this idea?

...Except most of us who are calling for Idris to be the next Bond don't see it as a casting based just upon the idea of 'having a black Bond', it is because we feel he iis the best actor currently out there to fulfill the core traits of the cinematic James Bond. So a film about Felix Leiter, that doesn't feature Idis as James Bond, doesn't exactly satisfy that requirement.

And I have always been curious about why Bond's race is apparently so essential to his character, yet the race of Felix and Moneypenny seem less essential to the character? (In any case, given the development time Eon takes on each film atm, a spin-off would be difficult without creating more delays to the main series.)

[B5Erik]

Here's a more obvious question - why would EON make such a radical change?

 

They don't need to - there are plenty of good actors who can play the role as well or better than Elba.  (Lots that would be worse, too, but a lot just as good if not better.)

 

So why make the change?  "It's about time!"  Really?  As someone pointed out above, then why not a female Captain Kirk?  Or an Asian-American Indiana Jones?  Or a white Lando Calrissian?   Or a white Shaft?  Any of those changes would be stupid.  They wouldn't be the same character.

 

Casting Elba would be a PR & PC move, nothing more, nothing less.  AND it would paint EON into a corner (as I mentioned previously).  Can you imagine the outrage if when Elba's time to leave the role came and they replaced him with a white actor?  They'd have to stick with black actors for the Bond after Elba, and maybe the Bond after that!  And then MAYBE they could cast a white actor in the role if they gave the series an 8 or 10 year hiatus and rebooted the whole thing yet again.  What a nightmare.

 

Maybe in a hundred years casting a black man as Bond will be no big deal.  That would certainly be nice from a cultural standpoint (our society really would have grown up), but that time isn't here, and, frankly, that time is decades away at the very least.

 

There is no good reason to make such a radical change.  You won't see that kind of radical change with Indiana Jones or Captain Kirk, so why should James Bond be any different?  There is no need for PR & PC driven stunt casting that will paint EON into a corner for at least a decade.

[Dustin]

AND it would paint EON into a corner (as I mentioned previously). Can you imagine the outrage if when Elba's time to leave the role came and they replaced him with a white actor?

From what I remember after Brosnan had to leave the role, and subsequently Craig's casting, it cannot really be that much worse. There are still any number of fans out there who didn't get get over this. Much the same can be expected once Craig's time has come. Each new actor will have to face the previous model's supporters and their fierce opposition. And either win them over or bring in new ones. And it's always been this way, with the Internet these skirmishes just become more visible, the people more vocal. That's all there is to it.

Maybe in a hundred years casting a black man as Bond will be no big deal. That would certainly be nice from a cultural standpoint (our society really would have grown up), but that time isn't here, and, frankly, that time is decades away at the very least.

Apparently some think it's not so far away, at least in terms of realistic options. I seriously don't dare to make any predictions regarding society's perceived or imagined matureness. In the end it's up to us what our society looks like, what it accepts and what it stands for. We shape events and developments in society, we decide the direction it takes. Whether this is a promising prospect giving hope for future generations stands on another page. I only know that it's true enough.

There is no good reason to make such a radical change. You won't see that kind of radical change with Indiana Jones or Captain Kirk, so why should James Bond be any different? There is no need for PR & PC driven stunt casting that will paint EON into a corner for at least a decade.

Actually making Kirk an insufferable brat was a much greater crime. And every bit as PC as it goes. Because nowadays you've got to have them on the screen too, lest they feel underrepresented with only fandom as their voice...

[Guy Haines]

Moving from race to nationality, if I may, we've had as Bond two Englishmen, an Irishman, a Welshman, a Scot and an Australian  (Sorry if that sounded like the first line of a joke!) And that's just in the "official series" - add the two earlier CRs and we have another Englishman and an American.

 

There's no reason why an actor from the US, Canada or elsewhere couldn't tackle the role, provided they could play the role properly - as a British agent with certain qualities we the audience expect from Bond. We almost got two from the States - John Gavin and James Brolin - and a New Zealander, Sam Neill. As I said earlier the next Bond should be played by the best and most suitable actor available at the time, of whatever background.

 

The reboot was by Bond standards a radical idea, undertaken I think to allow CR 2006 to be filmed as the first Bond adventure but against a contemporary setting. It's had ramifications since which vex some of us but, frankly, the mainstream audience does not give it much thought, imho. But that change aside, the Bond producers have always struck me as small "c" conservatives - not in a political sense, but in not making changes to the series unless absolutely necessary. On the whole they've run the series on the basis of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." We fans might have thought that changes should have been made from time to time, but in terms of box office and more recently critical acclaim the producers have been more right than wrong in that approach.

[Guy Haines]

Further to the above; the Idris Elba debate has moved to my Sunday newspaper and BBC Radio 4. Both focused on the comments of a certain Rush Limbaugh on US radio. What I found risible about the reports, if true, is not that Mr Limbaugh objects to a black actor as Bond but that he allegedly said that the next Bond should be "white and Scottish" because that's what James Bond is.

 

Scottish ancestry certainly, like Ian Fleming himself, but I don't think the shock jock has noted the ancestry of the actors who have played Bond previously. Only one Scot amongst them.

[JCRendle]

allegedly said that the next Bond should be "white and Scottish" because that's what James Bond is.

 

Scottish ancestry certainly, like Ian Fleming himself, but I don't think the shock jock has noted the ancestry of the actors who have played Bond previously. Only one Scot amongst them.

 

Does that mean he's open to a white and Swiss actor playing the role, as Bond is half Swiss...

[Dustin]

It's highly unlikely this person's considerations go beyond what will earn him the most applause with his audience and target group. Insofar it has to be regarded as a kind of personal success - after a fashion, in the very broadest sense of the word - that his musings actually came to the attention of a wider public.

[DavidJones]

The kind of people who say that idris Elba could be the next Bond don't know that Craig is signed for two more films, and that the next one without him will be around 2022, by which time Elba will be 50.

Edited by DavidJones, 28 December 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[tdalton]

The kind of people who say that idris Elba could be the next Bond don't know that Craig is signed for two more films, and that the next one without him will be around 2022, by which time Elba will be 50.

 

Yeah, this has been brought up several times before, but it doesn't seem to stop the discussion from taking place.  The fact of the matter is, as you stated, that Elba won't be Bond.  His age is really the only thing standing in the way of that, as he'll be far too old to be taking the reigns of the franchise when Craig steps down after Bond 25.

[ChickenStu]

OK. Idris Elba would be a FANTASTIC Bond and I don't care whether he's black or not.

 

For anyone who brings up the Shaft argument... Shaft is a product of a certain time and aimed at a certain audience. Bond has always been aimed at a more universal audience and at a more broad selection of fans. 

 

Some could say Fleming wrote the character as a white Scotsman. That's fine... BUT did those same people complain because an Australian, two Englishmen, a Welshman and and Irishman played the part? Did those people boycott THOSE movies cause of the nationality of the actors? 

 

Some people could say it's a PC move all about ticking boxes. Why can't it be about helping to close the divide in race? To show that really we are ALL the same? 

 

Far removed from Fleming? BAH. When has that EVER stopped the movies before? Fleming is DEAD people. The movies are something else now, they are owned by their fans. It's a different time now with different rules and I'd like to think that if Fleming was alive now he'd actually acknowledge this. 

 

Now if someone says to me "If Elba does it I won't watch it" don't tell me straight after that you're not racist. Not seeing a film cause a black man is playing the part is one of the most racist things a person can do. There is no way around it. 

 

Change is something to be embraced, not afraid of and if an actor like Elba gets the role - it could open up EVEN MORE DOORS for a film series that had a hell of a lot of open doors anyway.

 

I am absolutely 100% in favour of Idris Elba getting the part of James Bond. I'm wearing my heart on my sleeve on this one. 

 

I as you all know am a HUGE Bond fan. I love the movies, I have read all the books by Fleming, Pearson, Markham, Gardner, Benson, Higson, Westbrook, Higson, Faulks, Deaver, Boyd, Cole... you name it. Fiction and non-fiction. Videogames, boardgames, soundtrack albums... I've dipped my toes into all of it. I am the biggest Bond afficianado you can find. And I still stand by what I have always said: THESE ARE ONLY MOVIES. 

Edited by ChickenStu, 28 December 2014 - 07:56 PM.

[Dustin]

Topics merged.

Edited by Dustin, 28 December 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[AdaShelby]

Should we mention again how Idris Elba is now 42 and by the time Bond 26 comes out (if Craig does Bond 25), he will be 45-46. Do we really want him to be 50 during his second adventure as Bond? People are already worrying about Craig's age and he's on his fourth plus he's not even 50 yet.

Edited by AdaShelby, 28 December 2014 - 09:06 PM.

[tdalton]

Should we mention again how Idris Elba is now 42 and by the time Bond 26 comes out (if Craig does Bond 25), he will be 45-46. Do we really want him to be 50 during his second adventure as Bond? People are already worrying about Craig's age and he's on his fourth plus he's not even 50 yet.

 

You can mention it as many times as you want but it still seems to be ignored by the pro-Elba group.  And, not to be overly picky about the details as I think that this would further bolster your point, but Elba would actually 49-50 when he made his debut as Bond, as he'll be 43 when SPECTRE releases,  46 when Craig takes hi final turn in Bond 25, and then at least 49 and most likely 50 when Elba would make his theoretical debut in Bond 26.

Edited by tdalton, 28 December 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[Skylla]

OK. Idris Elba would be a FANTASTIC Bond and I don't care whether he's black or not.

 

^^ Really liked him as Luther and he was good in Losers, but didn´t scream Bond to me. And he would be too old anyway...^^

 

For anyone who brings up the Shaft argument... Shaft is a product of a certain time and aimed at a certain audience. Bond has always been aimed at a more universal audience and at a more broad selection of fans. 

 

^^ The same goes for Bond ^^

 

Some could say Fleming wrote the character as a white Scotsman. That's fine... BUT did those same people complain because an Australian, two Englishmen, a Welshman and and Irishman played the part? Did those people boycott THOSE movies cause of the nationality of the actors? 

 

^^ I think a white australian, welsh or irish could play a white scotsman, Elba unlikely. ^^

 

Some people could say it's a PC move all about ticking boxes. Why can't it be about helping to close the divide in race? To show that really we are ALL the same? 

 

^^ It´s not about PC, it´s flavour of the month. Changing Bond will not close the divide in race. No racist will say: oh, I´m such a big Bond fan, now I really like black people.... ^^

 

Far removed from Fleming? BAH. When has that EVER stopped the movies before? Fleming is DEAD people. The movies are something else now, they are owned by their fans. It's a different time now with different rules and I'd like to think that if Fleming was alive now he'd actually acknowledge this. 

 

^^ But Cubby wanted that the films will always be called Ian Fleming´s James Bond 007 films, which again implies the heritage described in the books by Fleming. And the producers always say: if there´s a problem, go back to Fleming. ^^ 

 

Now if someone says to me "If Elba does it I won't watch it" don't tell me straight after that you're not racist. Not seeing a film cause a black man is playing the part is one of the most racist things a person can do. There is no way around it. 

 

^^ But there is nothing racist about it when a fan wants the films to be as close to the origin source, which will forever be the books ^^  

 

Change is something to be embraced, not afraid of and if an actor like Elba gets the role - it could open up EVEN MORE DOORS for a film series that had a hell of a lot of open doors anyway.

 

^^ So why not go with Shah Rukh Khan or Chow Yun-Fat or Jennifer Aniston and solve womens liberation too? This would open even more doors ^^

 

I am absolutely 100% in favour of Idris Elba getting the part of James Bond. I'm wearing my heart on my sleeve on this one. 

Because he would be so much better then say Fassbender who is five years younger and even looks the part? 

I as you all know am a HUGE Bond fan. I love the movies, I have read all the books by Fleming, Pearson, Markham, Gardner, Benson, Higson, Westbrook, Higson, Faulks, Deaver, Boyd, Cole... you name it. Fiction and non-fiction. Videogames, boardgames, soundtrack albums... I've dipped my toes into all of it. I am the biggest Bond afficianado you can find. And I still stand by what I have always said: THESE ARE ONLY MOVIES. 

 

^^ So you said it yourself: these are just films, they can´t solve the worlds problems... ^^

Edited by Skylla, 29 December 2014 - 12:21 AM.

[Alexander]

In my opinion, it is desirable for idris Elba to be the next James Bond.

 

Although, when I say desirable, what I really mean is ESSENTIAL.

 

There are several angles here. One is that the Bond franchise can make a contribution to the positive transformation of society. How ironic that a franchise that was once the brainchild of an apparent racist (yes, I know Ian Fleming was a product of his time...) should make a positive contribution in this regard.

 

But there is also a pragmatic argument that in order for the franchise to remain relevant, it needs to be bold and embrace quality talent regardless of outdated hangups.

 

Idris Elba MUST be the next Bond. Or I foresee disaster,

Edited by Alexander, 29 December 2014 - 12:16 AM.