513 replies to this topic

[Sutter Cane]

Ok I feel I have a rather unconventional opinion on this issue. I have no problem with the idea of Idris Elba playing the character of James Bond in theory, however I am against it in practice, because it almost certainly in the eyes of many would legitimize the absolutely ridiculous "codename theory" that people seem to keep passing around about the bond series, even though there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. I will say that if EON ever actually embraces that codename idea (which I don't think they will, I mean they directly debunked it in Skyfall), I would completely stop paying attention to the series going forward. 

 

Also Elba would be too old by the time Craig is out of the role

[S K Y F A L L]

This must be just some powerplay move so they don't have to reveal who they really want to take over the role.

[Dustin]

Is this really still going on???

Gentlemen, I simply refuse to believe this...

[S K Y F A L L]

The important thing is Luther is coming back for a series.

[Skylla]

The important thing is Luther is coming back for a series.

Yes, another season of Luther would be great....

[Vauxhall]

Is this really still going on???
Gentlemen, I simply refuse to believe this...

I'm slightly concerned that Mr Elba, through very little of his own doing, is becoming the Gulshan Grover of his time.

[Skylla]

Ok I feel I have a rather unconventional opinion on this issue. I have no problem with the idea of Idris Elba playing the character of James Bond in theory, however I am against it in practice, because it almost certainly in the eyes of many would legitimize the absolutely ridiculous "codename theory" that people seem to keep passing around about the bond series, even though there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. I will say that if EON ever actually embraces that codename idea (which I don't think they will, I mean they directly debunked it in Skyfall), I would completely stop paying attention to the series going forward. 

 

Also Elba would be too old by the time Craig is out of the role

^ This ^. Even if Craig steps out after SPECTRE Elba would be around 47 for his first one. Would not make sense to reboot an old guy with an old guy in times where the action is so demanding of the actor...   

[Vauxhall]

[Dustin]

Hahaha - I can see how Ms Santa supports this reboot...

[sharpshooter]

Elba getting the part would severely test my fandom. I'm confident it won't happen. Bond being black goes against the character's core. I think it reaches a point when it becomes a whole other character entirely, and also can't help but feel like a gimmick. Like a female Doctor Who all of a sudden after 50 years of being male. I'm not interested in such ideas, and new characters can be created if they want to go down that path. Just like I don't want a white Shaft for example. I don't doubt an actor's ability - whether or not a white actor could play the part is irrelevant for me.

Edited by sharpshooter, 25 December 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Hahaha - I can see how Ms Santa supports this reboot...

It looks like a blow-up doll all right.

[JSDude1]

Nope, I don't like the idea of Bond being black, it's not racist.  It's just insistence of Character integrity.  James Bond has a history.  I'm fine with the recasting of Felix Leiter with Jeffrey Wright and Moneypenny with Naomi Harris (they're great), but after a while if the producers or Sony just change the character to "black" for diversity sake it really reeks of leftist politics invading a beloved series, rather than looking for the best actor to play the part.

 

That and the fact that after 50 years BOND is established and had a family history connected to Scottish nobility, well there weren't too many of African ancestry that fit that bill, sorry.

[BlackFire]

Man, I couldn't possibly imagine Craig hanging the tuxedo anytime soon. And I hope Bond continues to be Caucasian because y, know... it's like saying Terminator should now be a freckled redhead.

[SecretAgentFan]

It´s not like saying that at all.

 

Really, people.  Is the color of one´s skin the deciding factor for what an actor can do?

 

And don´t give me this crap about a white actor would be miscast as Shaft.  Shaft was conceived as a black character, a response to all the "we only allow white heroes"-racism.  That´s why it would not make sense to cast a white actor in that role.

 

Granted, Bond was conceived by Fleming as a white guy.  But we´re not talking about re-writing Fleming´s work here.  This is about making a Bond film.  And no actor has yet fulfilled Fleming´s ideals.  No one.

 

And why wasn´t that a problem?  Because the movie Bond is not the book Bond.

 

Also, saying that no black actor shall ever portray Bond reveals a mind set that still divides people into groups based on prejudice.  A black actor, in that mind set, would only be talking jive and running around with a boom box, unable to embody the refined Englishman that 007 is supposed to be.

 

And you really want to tell me that perception is not racist?

 

I agree on this: Idris Elba won´t be Bond due to being too old to start a tenure approaching his 50´s.  But everybody who has seen him act knows he would have been a great Bond.

Edited by SecretAgentFan, 26 December 2014 - 08:23 AM.

[x007AceOfSpades]

It´s not like saying that at all.

 

Really, people.  Is the color of one´s skin the deciding factor for what an actor can do?

 

And don´t give me this crap about a white actor would be miscast as Shaft.  Shaft was conceived as a black character, a response to all the "we only allow white heroes"-racism.  That´s why it would not make sense to cast a white actor in that role.

 

Granted, Bond was conceived by Fleming as a white guy.  But we´re not talking about re-writing Fleming´s work here.  This is about making a Bond film.  And no actor has yet fulfilled Fleming´s ideals.  No one.

 

And why wasn´t that a problem?  Because the movie Bond is not the book Bond.

 

Also, saying that no black actor shall ever portray Bond reveals a mind set that still divides people into groups based on prejudice.  A black actor, in that mind set, would only be talking jive and running around with a boom box, unable to embody the refined Englishman that 007 is supposed to be.

 

And you really want to tell me that perception is not racist?

 

I agree on this: Idris Elba won´t be Bond due to being too old to start a tenure approaching his 50´s.  But everybody who has seen him act knows he would have been a great Bond.

That was excellently written SAF. Couldn't have said it better.

[B5Erik]

SAF, I don't think anyone is under the misconception that a black actor would only be, "Talking jive and running around with a boom box."  We've all seen classy, intelligent, dignified black characters hundreds of times over.  Elba could easily play that type of role.

 

But being white IS a fundamental part of Bond's family history.  Unfortunately, his history is one that a black man would be extremely unlikely to have, even in the UK.  I don't like that fact, I think it stinks and we've got a long way to go as a race (the HUMAN race), but we're making progress.  But our upbringing and our youth largely defines who we are.  Bond comes from a background that has made him who he is.  He doesn't have that fundamental distrust of white people that most black people understandably have to one degree or another.  There are some real mean spirited bigots out there that treat black people like crap.  There are also some stealth bigots who treat black people like crap in subtle ways that most whites wouldn't notice, but a young black man would be very aware of.  That creates a little resentment, a lack of trust, and feelings that James Bond has never had in any form.  It would be a fundamental change in his character.  He would no longer be the same James Bond that we've all known and loved for decades.

 

Ian Fleming described Bond's appearance, and he wasn't the least bit black.  James Bond has always been a white man in the movies, keeping in line with who James Bond is in the novels.  People don't just spontaneously change ethnicities (outside of Michael Jackson, anyway).  Changing Bond's ethnicity WOULD be changing the character in a fundamental way.

 

This topic came up several years ago when some people wanted Colin Salmon to take over as 007.  It was a bad idea then, and it's a bad idea now. 

 

As I said then, I'll say again now - I would LOVE to see a Bond spin-off with Elba playing 009.  That would be VERY cool, and it would allow EON and their production partners to put out a movie every other year at least.  They would have greater revenues, so it would be a total positive.  AND it would create a NEW, EXCITING superspy who just happens to be black.  That should be the goal - to create a new iconic character that has some color to him rather than trying to retcon a white iconic character and make him black for PC & PR reasons (the absolute worst reasons to make that kind of change).

 

YES, casting a black actor to play Bond would get HUGE coverage in the media, but then what?  What if the movie flopped?  Or what if the 2nd movie witha that actor flopped after the novelty wore off?  Would the story then become, "BOND FANS ARE RACISTS"?  And what about recasting once Elba (or any black actor) left the role?  Can you imagine the cries of, "RACISM," if they recast a white actor back in the role?  Think about it, EON would be painting themselves into a corner by casting a black actor in the role, potentially ending the series if the public didn't accept a Black Bond.  They'd have to wait a decade or so and reboot again to get away with casting a white actor in the role after a black actor played Bond.  As a Bond fan I don't want to wait 8 or 10 years between Bond movies.  The five year wait from LTK to GE was far too long for me.  Waiting even longer would be really bad.

 

I still maintain that a NEW Double-00 played by Elba or someone like that would be a win/win for everyone involved.  EON gets a 2nd property, and the world gets a new iconic character that just happens to be black.  Awesome for everyone.  Isn't that preferable?

[Guy Haines]

I'm not going to say anything about the next Bond actor except that whoever he is should be the best actor available and suitable at the time of casting, of whatever background. Here, we are talking race. In 1962 some were talking class - how could a former Edinburgh milkman and coffin fitter possibly play the Eton & Fettes educated James Bond? Sean Connery provided the answer brilliantly.

 

One thing I think could happen in future is that Bond could answer to an M of black or minority ethnic background. There are precedents. Harrison Ford's Jack Ryan answered to Admiral Greer (James Earl Jones). A very different example was TV's Starsky & Hutch in the 1970s reporting to a black police chief. And in the 1960s, the TV series Department S featured the department head who was from Africa, knighted by the British - Sir Curtis Seretse was the boss's name. This character was clearly inspired by M from the Bond films, imho.

[Dustin]

That and the fact that after 50 years BOND is established and had a family history connected to Scottish nobility, well there weren't too many of African ancestry that fit that bill, sorry.

Nobility? Lower squiredom, at the most. If that.

Just as a minor aside, as this seems to have become somewhat of a misconception, Bond - the literary Bond people in this discussion point so often to, such as he was created by Fleming - is no Laird and has no connection to nobility or squiredom. If you read the relevant chapter in On Her Majesty's Secret Service, 'Bond Of Bond Street' the author clearly has his fun with all the snobbish paraphernalia related to this fad of genealogy, coats of arms, mottos and such. Fleming's Bond is not related to nobility and has no use for such rubbish. And if we take Fleming himself as the template - as we so frequently do - it becomes even clearer as Fleming was only half a generation removed from that most despised class, the nouveau riche. Fleming's grandfather used to be working class before he made his money.

So this argument is not just irrelevant, as far as it concerns casting the character, it's even going a bit in the other direction. Film Bond's supposed 'nobility' stems exclusively from the producer's minds. Follows they shape Bond pretty much as they see fit for their purposes. It's telling we accept these modifications on the screen without any much problems, they just go in stride with our in the end pretty flexible idea of Bond.

Edited by Dustin, 26 December 2014 - 12:03 PM.

[jamie00007]

I want a Bond actor who looks like James Bond, sue me. I didnt even care for Craig but his portrayal won me over but the next Bond actor I would like to see look more like the traditional Bond, not even further removed. I also dislike the notion that Bond is some kind of blank slate that can be portrayed by anyone.

 

I dont want a redheaded Superman with freckles, or an Asian Indiana Jones, or a female Captain Kirk or a blonde Ellen Ripley or a caucasian Lando Calrissian or a chinese Gandalf, even though most of these could just as easily be done as a black Bond going by the criteria people are using in this thread. Actually they could mostly be done a lot more easily than a black Bond since we know more about Bond's heritage then most of them. 

Edited by jamie00007, 27 December 2014 - 02:31 AM.

[coco1997]

Also, saying that no black actor shall ever portray Bond reveals a mind set that still divides people into groups based on prejudice.  A black actor, in that mind set, would only be talking jive and running around with a boom box, unable to embody the refined Englishman that 007 is supposed to be.

 

And you really want to tell me that perception is not racist?

Eh, this is very much debatable, SAF, and a bit unfair. Personally I think Elba is one of the coolest guys around and his persona screams 007. 

 

But those who want a black Bond say this shouldn't be about race, and yet if you then continue to cast black actors after Craig (or whoever ends up being the last Caucasian 007) then you HAVE made it about race, because you have fundamentally changed the image of the character. And as I pointed out on the previous page, what would the reaction be if you replaced Elba with another white actor? Would that not be troublesome, and possibly even a bit uncomfortable?

 

If Elba had been cast in 2005 rather than Craig, the idea would have made a lot more sense. But I seriously doubt EON is planning to reboot the franchise again any time soon.

[Dustin]

This debate went now for 11 pages, mostly in a very civilised manner and CBners can decidedly be proud of this.

As I've said repeatedly, the actual case seems to be a moot one, a mere means of producing headlines for lack of other, more newsworthy material.

Most of the arguments have been made several times over by now. Up to a point I'm able to understand both sides here. Of course it's about race - insofar as the question is, does race matter? Yes and no, for some it does, for some it doesn't.

20 years ago I wouldn't ever have dreamt a discussion like this was even possible. Today I have to admit I could well see a black actor in the role. Not because I feel it was 'time for it' or it was the political correct thing to do. I think I'm more relaxed about the matter because I no longer see the films as one definite, fixed-for-all-time continuum. For me they exist in their own world where many things are possible. If you look at the series up until now you'll likely arrive at the same conclusion.

Now, how does that affect the character of James Bond? Who was undeniably conceived as white male Briton...

But was he really?

What I mean is this, we keep bringing up Fleming as the ultimate King's evidence that Bond has got to be white (or 'Caucasian' if you prefer this word) because he wrote him this way. As if this was Fleming's conscious decision; a decision he made especially to rule out any other ethnicity for Bond's background.

But in Fleming's time it was hardly conceivable he would choose anything else than his own cultural experiences and background as the template for his hero. Fleming himself most likely wouldn't have understood the discussion because in all likelihood it would never have occurred to him. It's an eminently modern discussion we have, a discussion that became only possible with shifting perceptions in our society.

Some take this as a bad sign overall, a sign how bad progress and change influence our secure beliefs, supposedly firm ground that suddenly proves to be much shakier than they initially thought. I'm afraid I can offer no real consolation there. This is the way things have always been and will always be. It's what the world does while we complain, it moves on.

But if we look closer at the character of Bond, what do we see there?

We see bravery, we see love for life, we see some form of basic patriotism half a step removed from political allegations, a certain kind of mental and physical resilience in the face of enormous odds and a touch of restrained adventure spirit and vivid interest in the exotic and bizarre. This perhaps the most defining trait for Bond as a character, for the other elements merely stem from his nature as a genre adventure hero. Bond's biggest defining streak is the look outside, the way he perceives and notes the things around him.

It's not - at least in my view - the way the world looks at Bond. He's a natural character of authority, everything else is up to the reader's imagination.

So, is it possible to find such a combination of traits as I listed in a black character? Of course, perfectly. The point has even been made a few times, make a series with a black superspy and let Elba have the role. Which of course would be a Bond copy then. Where would be the point in that?

If we ask ourselves whether Bond's character traits could come in any other package than the one we are already familiar with...then the question is really already the answer.

[S K Y F A L L]

Q should have been black...

[Logie]

All I ask of Bond is that he's cool, sophisticated, sexy and British. If the actor they pick can do those, I'm happy.

[SecretAgentFan]

This debate went now for 11 pages, mostly in a very civilised manner and CBners can decidedly be proud of this.

As I've said repeatedly, the actual case seems to be a moot one, a mere means of producing headlines for lack of other, more newsworthy material.

Most of the arguments have been made several times over by now. Up to a point I'm able to understand both sides here. Of course it's about race - insofar as the question is, does race matter? Yes and no, for some it does, for some it doesn't.

20 years ago I wouldn't ever have dreamt a discussion like this was even possible. Today I have to admit I could well see a black actor in the role. Not because I feel it was 'time for it' or it was the political correct thing to do. I think I'm more relaxed about the matter because I no longer see the films as one definite, fixed-for-all-time continuum. For me they exist in their own world where many things are possible. If you look at the series up until now you'll likely arrive at the same conclusion.

Now, how does that affect the character of James Bond? Who was undeniably conceived as white male Briton...

But was he really?

What I mean is this, we keep bringing up Fleming as the ultimate King's evidence that Bond has got to be white (or 'Caucasian' if you prefer this word) because he wrote him this way. As if this was Fleming's conscious decision; a decision he made especially to rule out any other ethnicity for Bond's background.

But in Fleming's time it was hardly conceivable he would choose anything else than his own cultural experiences and background as the template for his hero. Fleming himself most likely wouldn't have understood the discussion because in all likelihood it would never have occurred to him. It's an eminently modern discussion we have, a discussion that became only possible with shifting perceptions in our society.

Some take this as a bad sign overall, a sign how bad progress and change influence our secure beliefs, supposedly firm ground that suddenly proves to be much shakier than they initially thought. I'm afraid I can offer no real consolation there. This is the way things have always been and will always be. It's what the world does while we complain, it moves on.

But if we look closer at the character of Bond, what do we see there?

We see bravery, we see love for life, we see some form of basic patriotism half a step removed from political allegations, a certain kind of mental and physical resilience in the face of enormous odds and a touch of restrained adventure spirit and vivid interest in the exotic and bizarre. This perhaps the most defining trait for Bond as a character, for the other elements merely stem from his nature as a genre adventure hero. Bond's biggest defining streak is the look outside, the way he perceives and notes the things around him.

It's not - at least in my view - the way the world looks at Bond. He's a natural character of authority, everything else is up to the reader's imagination.

So, is it possible to find such a combination of traits as I listed in a black character? Of course, perfectly. The point has even been made a few times, make a series with a black superspy and let Elba have the role. Which of course would be a Bond copy then. Where would be the point in that?

If we ask ourselves whether Bond's character traits could come in any other package than the one we are already familiar with...then the question is really already the answer.

 

Perfect post.

[Jim]

Piece in today's Times (unfortunately behind a paywall) about why a black Bond (and Elba in particular) is a viable prospect.

[JCRendle]

What if he isn't Bond, but is a also a 00 agent in MI6 - much like The Bourne Legacy - so set in Bond's universe, he may even encounter Bond - The mission is given to him by Fiennes' M, he's given equipment/documents from Q etc.  

[SecretAgentFan]

It´s like desperately trying to keep "the black man" away from the real thing.

 

Once again, the movie Bond has never been Fleming´s Bond.  And to argue that only an actor who fits Fleming´s description can be the movie Bond is absurd.

 

Society is constantly changing, and the movies have reflected that time and again.  Sooner or later, there will be a non-white actor playing James Bond.  People are free to stop their fandom or to continue.

 

But since I have been around long enough to have experienced first-hand how people claimed "CONNERY IS THE ONLY BOND AND THIS TV-SMOOTHIE WILL DESTROY THE LEGACY" I know that those hard-liners will either come around or just stop being relevant.  Generations will move on.  And that´s that.

[coco1997]

I'm not really interested in reading the last 14 pages, so I have to ask this: Are those in the pro-Elba camp in favor of a 'black Bond' succeeding Craig in the same timeline or in the next reboot, whenever that may be?

[SecretAgentFan]

There has never been one timeline.

 

When Craig steps down they will either carry on with the same MI6 crew and a new actor (see Lazenby, Sir Roger or Dalton), take the current "M" and surround him with a new team and a new Bond (see Craig) - or they will re-cast everything (see Brosnan).

[Logie]

I'm not really interested in reading the last 14 pages, so I have to ask this: Are those in the pro-Elba camp in favor of a 'black Bond' succeeding Craig in the same timeline or in the next reboot, whenever that may be?

 

I suppose that depends what direction the films take. For all we know, the next reboot may take Bond back to the 50s, in which case a black actor as Bond may not be a great idea. 

 

That's the great thing about fiction; anything can happen!