1894 replies to this topic

[JimmyBond]

I really think this is much ado about nothing until we can actually hear the score for ourselves. It's even possible that they did license it, but they did so because Newman's own take on the theme was so similar they felt it would be easier that way.

[Armand Fancypants]

Didn't Barry use Norman cues in FRWL?

Precedent!

[THX-007]

Didn't Barry use Norman cues in FRWL?

Precedent!

And the last time the original Norman / Barry theme was used was in the Piz Gloria battle in OHMSS.

[delfloria]

I'll go into the film with the idea that Arnold's Bond theme from CR (which I like very much) IS Craig's Bond theme and we might be hearing it in the next film as well.

[The Shark]

Didn't Barry use Norman cues in FRWL?

Precedent!

That was the producers, director and editors, not Barry.

I'll go into the film with the idea that Arnold's Bond theme from CR (which I like very much) IS Craig's Bond theme and we might be hearing it in the next film as well.

It's also Brosnan's Bond theme.

[junkanoo]

I'll go into the film with the idea that Arnold's Bond theme from CR (which I like very much) IS Craig's Bond theme and we might be hearing it in the next film as well.

So ... now the "James Bond Theme" is not just James Bond's theme but a certain version of it is "Craig's Bond Theme?" So, now it's a thematic theme redundant redundancy? C'mon.

[MattofSteel]

In one month's time , no one will give a crap about any of this.

[marktmurphy]

Arnold's "The Name's Bond...James Bond" cue being used verbatim in Skyfall is 100% fine with me. An expected reaction, as Shark will no doubt try to make some ensuing pun about.

That cue is, frankly, kind of a definitive rendition of the James Bond Theme - in my humble opinion. It's basically just a contemporary re-recording/re-mastering/whatever of the original Dr. No recording, and I don't honestly see one thing about it that's wrong or could be cause for complaint.

Not enough triangle!

With the previous two films, I was watching Craig as Bond but hearing Brosnan. Finally he'll have his own sound, if only for one movie.

Yes, I agree with that. It will be nice for Craig not to sound like Brosnan.

Exactly. Just as giving us a rehashed Brosnan arrangement (minus drum loops) at the tail end of a score practically drenched in electronics, comes off as anachronistic, lazy, and plain uninspired. It's 2006, not 1964 or 1997, for Christ's sake.

I liked the end credits of CR; it was a nice punch-the-air moment. But the 60's Bond theme didn't actually make much sense there- it sounds very 60's and there's nothing of the 60's or campy to CR or Craig's Bond. It didn't suit him.
I know everyone's sick of it, but the trailer version of the Bond theme works for Craig's CR Bond better.

I was watching CR again recently; I did think Arnold did quite a poor job in the climax- there's nothing to suggest Bond's world falling apart as he learns that Vesper is betraying him- it just becomes an action score as he follows her.

[junkanoo]

I know everyone's sick of it, but the trailer version of the Bond theme works for Craig's CR Bond better.

I don't want to get into a 'pick the Bond theme' discussion ... but I like the trailer version. It has quite the 'wow' factor.

I was watching CR again recently; I did think Arnold did quite a poor job in the climax- there's nothing to suggest Bond's world falling apart as he learns that Vesper is betraying him- it just becomes an action score as he follows her.

Quite simply, if the director put in a scene showing Bond reacting to his world falling apart as he followed Vesper, it might be a valid criticism. He didn't. The job of the composer is to support the scenes.

[The Shark]

Quite simply, if the director put in a scene showing Bond reacting to his world falling apart as he followed Vesper, it might be a valid criticism. He didn't. The job of the composer is to support the scenes.

A composer can add subtext to a scene, a bit of a dialogue, or even a gesture or facial expression. Just because a suspense scene is tense, that doesn't mean that's all the music should convey. Otherwise the score is redundant, and is simply underlining in red pen what's plainly clear. That is one of the things that separates Barry and Arnold in my mind, and what makes CASINO ROYALE's score so underwhelming. It's too obvious, wall-to-wall, and more often than not, dramatically redundant.

[junkanoo]

Quite simply, if the director put in a scene showing Bond reacting to his world falling apart as he followed Vesper, it might be a valid criticism. He didn't. The job of the composer is to support the scenes.

A composer can add subtext to a scene, a bit of a dialogue, or even a gesture or facial expression. Just because a suspense scene is tense, that doesn't mean that's all the music should convey. Otherwise the score is redundant, and is simply underlining in red pen what's plainly clear. That is one of the things that separates Barry and Arnold in my mind, and what makes CASINO ROYALE's score so underwhelming. It's too obvious, wall-to-wall, and more often than not, dramatically redundant.

Well, when you're pitching yourself for Bond 29, please share all this with Babs - I'm sure the producers will be won over.

[The Shark]

Quite simply, if the director put in a scene showing Bond reacting to his world falling apart as he followed Vesper, it might be a valid criticism. He didn't. The job of the composer is to support the scenes.

A composer can add subtext to a scene, a bit of a dialogue, or even a gesture or facial expression. Just because a suspense scene is tense, that doesn't mean that's all the music should convey. Otherwise the score is redundant, and is simply underlining in red pen what's plainly clear. That is one of the things that separates Barry and Arnold in my mind, and what makes CASINO ROYALE's score so underwhelming. It's too obvious, wall-to-wall, and more often than not, dramatically redundant.

Well, when you're pitching yourself for Bond 29, please share all this with Babs - I'm sure the producers will be won over.

I'm sure Babs McGee would've already been won over by my prowess in bed.

[marktmurphy]

I was watching CR again recently; I did think Arnold did quite a poor job in the climax- there's nothing to suggest Bond's world falling apart as he learns that Vesper is betraying him- it just becomes an action score as he follows her.

Quite simply, if the director put in a scene showing Bond reacting to his world falling apart as he followed Vesper, it might be a valid criticism. He didn't. The job of the composer is to support the scenes.

Well; no- that's not film composing is. And anyway: Craig clearly is playing Bond in shock but putting on a brave face- M shocks him when she tells him Vesper hasn't returned the money. He's stunned and angry when the banker tells him its being withdrawn at the local bank- Bond knows that Vesper has betrayed him. But the music just plays us an action tune. It's a highly dramatic moment but the score treats it like any other bit of action business.
If you don't think it is a dramatic moment; that Bond's world isn't falling apart, then perhaps you missed that because the score failed to assist the scene. Watch it again.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

What are your fave samples of Newman's OST? So far I like "Komodo Dragon" and "Brave New World". Not much the rest,

[Vauxhall]

What are your fave samples of Newman's OST? So far I like "Komodo Dragon" and "Brave New World". Not much the rest,

Those are two of the ones that I also liked immediately. Also "Severine", "Modigliani" and "New Digs" are all good to my ears. With the action cues, I like to hear the full tracks before making a final assessment.

[MattofSteel]

"Deep Water" sounds pretty classic.

[univex]

"Deep Water" sounds pretty classic.

Yes, should develop quite nicely.

[The Shark]

I like "Shanghai Drive" a lot.

[Armand Fancypants]

Didn't Barry use Norman cues in FRWL?

Precedent!

That was the producers, director and editors, not Barry.

Curious stuff, Sharky. I've always found it odd when the Norman cues come out for those last two set-pieces. Always feels so out of place with Barry's comparatively lush and sweeping score. Was there a particular reason for that choice? Was it kinda like Lucas being dissatisfied with Williams' cues for the AOTC climax and just tracking in stuff from TPM?

[junkanoo]

I was watching CR again recently; I did think Arnold did quite a poor job in the climax- there's nothing to suggest Bond's world falling apart as he learns that Vesper is betraying him- it just becomes an action score as he follows her.

Quite simply, if the director put in a scene showing Bond reacting to his world falling apart as he followed Vesper, it might be a valid criticism. He didn't. The job of the composer is to support the scenes.

Well; no- that's not film composing is. And anyway: Craig clearly is playing Bond in shock but putting on a brave face- M shocks him when she tells him Vesper hasn't returned the money. He's stunned and angry when the banker tells him its being withdrawn at the local bank- Bond knows that Vesper has betrayed him. But the music just plays us an action tune. It's a highly dramatic moment but the score treats it like any other bit of action business.
If you don't think it is a dramatic moment; that Bond's world isn't falling apart, then perhaps you missed that because the score failed to assist the scene. Watch it again.

Putting on a brave face for whom? He's by HIMSELF in his hotel room getting the news from M, his eyes in extreme close-up and not blinking ONCE nor looking about. If the director plays it like Bond is as cool (under the circumstances) as if he were playing a game of poker - stop with the nonsense about emotional sub-text needed for the score. Call to the banker ... again no emotion. It becomes a chase/tracking scene. Why aren't the funds just transferred to a shell account? Because without Vesper getting the cash - there is no chase/tracking scene leading to the climactic scenes. Therefore, a tired, tired premise to get to the action. In other words, it's a Bond film.

[MattofSteel]

I like "Shanghai Drive" a lot.

I do too. Definitively contemporary and yet it sounds perfectly Bondian. Have to imagine it's the sort of track you've been inferring the films need more of, Shark.

[marktmurphy]

I was watching CR again recently; I did think Arnold did quite a poor job in the climax- there's nothing to suggest Bond's world falling apart as he learns that Vesper is betraying him- it just becomes an action score as he follows her.

Quite simply, if the director put in a scene showing Bond reacting to his world falling apart as he followed Vesper, it might be a valid criticism. He didn't. The job of the composer is to support the scenes.

Well; no- that's not film composing is. And anyway: Craig clearly is playing Bond in shock but putting on a brave face- M shocks him when she tells him Vesper hasn't returned the money. He's stunned and angry when the banker tells him its being withdrawn at the local bank- Bond knows that Vesper has betrayed him. But the music just plays us an action tune. It's a highly dramatic moment but the score treats it like any other bit of action business.
If you don't think it is a dramatic moment; that Bond's world isn't falling apart, then perhaps you missed that because the score failed to assist the scene. Watch it again.

Putting on a brave face for whom? He's by HIMSELF in his hotel room getting the news from M, his eyes in extreme close-up and not blinking ONCE nor looking about.

He's talking to M. He pretends that its not a shock to him. Craig plays him shocked but pretending not to be. Are you saying he isn't shocked by the news that Vesper has betrayed him? I think you may have missed the point of the entire movie...

If the director plays it like Bond is as cool (under the circumstances) as if he were playing a game of poker - stop with the nonsense about emotional sub-text needed for the score. Call to the banker ... again no emotion. It becomes a chase/tracking scene. Why aren't the funds just transferred to a shell account? Because without Vesper getting the cash - there is no chase/tracking scene leading to the climactic scenes. Therefore, a tired, tired premise to get to the action. In other words, it's a Bond film.

It's really not about the action. That you think it is means that someone who's not able to pick up on the idea that Bond's love has betrayed him (like yourself) may miss the emotional resonance of that if a bog standard action theme plays in the background.

[The Shark]

stop with the nonsense about emotional sub-text needed for the score.

[The Shark]

That you think it is means that someone who's not able to pick up on the idea that Bond's love has betrayed him (like yourself) may miss the emotional resonance of that if a bog standard action theme plays in the background.

Right. And listen to the cue itself after the buildup, when Bond charges through St. Mark's square. The music's vaguely Italian sounding, with not a hint of mental turmoil. It's a classic example of scoring the location but not the character. Something Barry deliberately avoided when it came to real drama.

[univex]

That you think it is means that someone who's not able to pick up on the idea that Bond's love has betrayed him (like yourself) may miss the emotional resonance of that if a bog standard action theme plays in the background.

Right. And listen to the cue itself after the buildup, when Bond charges through St. Mark's square. The music's vaguely Italian sounding, with not a hint of mental turmoil. It's a classic example of scoring the location but not the character. Something Barry deliberately avoided when it came to real drama.

And a good call that was (Barry´s).

[MattofSteel]

Arnold's confirmed to me on Twitter the filmmakers indeed licensed CR's "The Names Bond...James Bond" cue for use in Skyfall - but he's not sure where in the film it appears.

[gkgyver]

Arnold's music at least is entertaining.

Eh, no.

I'll leave it at that.

Oh, come on.

50% of Arnold's Bond scores may be forgettable, but some of the rest is very nice, and I don't feel like dozing off.

I'd say there's about 15% worth listening to, the rest of it being forgettable junk. I'm not blown over by the Newman samples either, but at their best they're refreshingly current and distinct from Arnold. With the previous two films, I was watching Craig as Bond but hearing Brosnan. Finally he'll have his own sound, if only for one movie.

"Refreshingly current" is a very dubious term.
Had Skyfall the Hans Zimmer sound, would you also call it "refreshingly current"? "Current" in this case means: the same sound all other spy thrillers or action films have these days. In other words, not very original. Making Skyfall sound "contemporary" (read: copied from other movies) makes it utterly anonymous.

Also, what is wrong with giving the theme a new, slightly larger sounding, polish?

• Craig ain't Brosnan. He has his own personality, which is far from removed from Brozza's slick cloths model.

And John Barry did change his sound for Moore or Lazenby as opposed to his Connery scores? I hope you're not implying that. He didn't.

[MattofSteel]

Arnold's music at least is entertaining.

Eh, no.

I'll leave it at that.

Oh, come on.

50% of Arnold's Bond scores may be forgettable, but some of the rest is very nice, and I don't feel like dozing off.

I'd say there's about 15% worth listening to, the rest of it being forgettable junk. I'm not blown over by the Newman samples either, but at their best they're refreshingly current and distinct from Arnold. With the previous two films, I was watching Craig as Bond but hearing Brosnan. Finally he'll have his own sound, if only for one movie.

"Refreshingly current" is a very dubious term.
Had Skyfall the Hans Zimmer sound, would you also call it "refreshingly current"? "Current" in this case means: the same sound all other spy thrillers or action films have these days. In other words, not very original. Making Skyfall sound "contemporary" (read: copied from other movies) makes it utterly anonymous.

Also, what is wrong with giving the theme a new, slightly larger sounding, polish?

• Craig ain't Brosnan. He has his own personality, which is far from removed from Brozza's slick cloths model.

And John Barry did change his sound for Moore or Lazenby as opposed to his Connery scores? I hope you're not implying that. He didn't.

I'd say John Barry's sound did - in select cases - become a sort of watered-down version of itself (CUE SHARK/ARNOLD BURN!) during the Moore years.

It reflected the films and the actor, which was probably the correct approach, but for my money the scores to Octopussy and Moonraker don't begin to touch Goldfinger, Thunderball, YOLT, and OHMSS in terms of quality.

[The Shark]

Arnold's music at least is entertaining.

Eh, no.

I'll leave it at that.

Oh, come on.

50% of Arnold's Bond scores may be forgettable, but some of the rest is very nice, and I don't feel like dozing off.

I'd say there's about 15% worth listening to, the rest of it being forgettable junk. I'm not blown over by the Newman samples either, but at their best they're refreshingly current and distinct from Arnold. With the previous two films, I was watching Craig as Bond but hearing Brosnan. Finally he'll have his own sound, if only for one movie.

"Refreshingly current" is a very dubious term.
Had Skyfall the Hans Zimmer sound, would you also call it "refreshingly current"? "Current" in this case means: the same sound all other spy thrillers or action films have these days. In other words, not very original. Making Skyfall sound "contemporary" (read: copied from other movies) makes it utterly anonymous.

I meant "contemporary", as in pop music in general, not just contemporary film scores. Like Serra's score 95, it seems to capture to Zeitgeist of its time, without having one foot forever stuck in the 60s.

I'd agree that there's some Remote Control-sounding cues in those samples, but a good number of them (i.e. "Shanghai Drive", "New Digs", "Enjoying Death', Someone Usually Dies" and "The Chimera") sound fresh and distinctively Newman.

Also, what is wrong with giving the theme a new, slightly larger sounding, polish?

• Craig ain't Brosnan. He has his own personality, which is far from removed from Brozza's slick cloths model.

And John Barry did change his sound for Moore or Lazenby as opposed to his Connery scores? I hope you're not implying that. He didn't.

He did, but Arnold didn't.

[THX-007]

And John Barry did change his sound for Moore or Lazenby as opposed to his Connery scores? I hope you're not implying that. He didn't.

As The Shark said, he did. In OHMSS, Barry heavily incorporated the moog synthesizer into the score and into the Bond theme in both the opening scene and the end credits. While heavy use of brass was always a staple in his work, Barry's sound did change throughout his career.
My favorite track of Barry's outside his Bond work