1269 replies to this topic

[dodge]

Emerson, frankly, isn't that good of an actor.

Are you kidding? Emerson is one of the most nuanced actors out there and deserves much more praise than he gets. I should be disappointed that the Lost castaways have shifted out of the spotlight because of his character, but Emerson is such a revelation as Ben Linus that his centric episodes are easily among my favourites. As a Batman villain, though, I don't know. Outside of the baddies done in the Burton/Schumacher films, I'm not up on the Batman villains.

I think Emerson would rock, as well. But a far more interesting choice could be William Fichtner--an actor you've probably seen dozens of times but whose name you might not recognize. He's currently part of the Prison Break ensemble. He had a small part in TDK as the doomed shotgun-firing bank employee. Etc. Very subtle actor, capable of playing anything from psychos to sympathetic leads.

Fichtner is phenomenal. He has such a unique look - you don't know what's happening behind his eyes. Like Emerson, you know an actor is great when they enter a TV series mid-run as a main player and succeed beyond expectations. Maybe it's a stretch, but is there any potential for his Dark Knight character to evolve into a villain? He didn't explicitly die, did he?

Interesting question. What was that, a smoke grenade placed in his mouth? You'd have thought it more like the Joker to place real grenade there. So, why not...unless maybe you're right? That would be something, wouldn't it? Go, Billy Fichtner!

[Judo chop]

The Riddler was a minor villain in the comics who was simply a half-rate Joker until Gorshin’s portrayal on the old TV show. After that the comic character became shaped by Gorshin. So if you know the television version, you know the Riddler.

Makes sense. Even as I child I thought it was pretty uncreative of them to have Batman have to fight both a jokester and a riddler. If I had known the word ‘redundant’ at the time, I would have used it.

If the Riddler makes his way into the next one, there had better be some pretty darn good writing. His riddles should really make a mess of a man’s head and have some serious weight attached to solving them. I don’t know if Nolan’s brother or whatever is up for it.

[Harmsway]

My two choices are Neil Patrick Harris or Casey Affleck.

After seeing ASSASSINATION OF JESSE JAMES..., I think he’d make a marvelous Riddler that I dare say might even be able to stand in the ring with Ledger’s Joker performance.

What a twitchy little worm that guy can play! Disturbed, creepy, unstable, suggestive of serious childhood trauma, and I'll bet capable of achieving total malevolent giddiness.

I think we can leave the giddiness behind (it's a non-essential as far as the character is concerned, and its absence is probably important to distinguish the character from the Joker), but I'll take the rest of it. And the hero-adoration/hatred that he displays in ASSASSINATION is perfect for his relationship with the Batman.

(I only know the Riddler for what he’s intended to be in the TV show, cartoons and Carey’s go at it. I don’t know the comic version, but I assume those others were at least roughly based on the comic character. I would suppose that all that’s been missing is the serious approach. Given that, Affleck has got what it takes.)

The TV show, the cartoons, and Carey all had something of the character (who, admittedly, hasn't varied much). That said, he did take a darker, more insidious turn in the comic book arc HUSH, and that's something I'd like to see Nolan draw upon. But I'm also interested in seeing Nolan reinvent the character according to his whims, and do something really different. He better draw on the whole Zodiac-like elements of the character.

[deth]

I could see Robert Downey Jr. pulling it off....

He could, but two points:

• Would Downey want to be linked to two major comic book franchises? And more pertinently, two major comic book franchises from the two competing comic book stablehouses?
• With Iron Man catapulting him back on the A-list, he's too much of a name. Nolan has a great knack for hiring maybe not lesser-known actors, but perhaps less obvious choices. When Ledger was first announced as The Joker, I was completely unconvinced. And Eckhart seemed an interesting but dull choice as Dent. Both blew me away. In my opinion, Nolan's only misfire was Cillian Murphy, who looks way too young for such a role.

Pre-Iron Man, Downey Jr. would totally be a contender. But that ship has sailed.

true. ANd now I hear that Downey didn't like the Dark Knight anyway...

[Judo chop]

In my opinion, Nolan's only misfire was Cillian Murphy, who looks way too young for such a role.

I’ve heard this before and, honestly, I have a hard time understanding it. Yeah, he’s got that pretty, young skin, but I think he was one of the best ‘superhero’ villains in a long, long time. His disappearance into the Scarecrow character is amazing. It took me about 4 viewings of each film until I realized that the Scarecrow was also the protagonist in 28 DAYS LATER. (And even now that I know that, I still have a very hard time seeing how.)

Basically, I think the success of his performance easily drowns out any age criticism that can be aimed at him. I love Cillian’s Scarecrow, and I put the decision to cast him in the list of good-sense decisions to cast Bale, Freeman and Caine.

ANd now I hear that Downey didn't like the Dark Knight anyway...

I read that too and didn’t make anything of it. He came off sounding like a very unserious goof in the article I read. I think ‘hearing’ his opinion of TDK would tell a different story than that written version tells.

[[dark]]

Awesome fan-made poster for a third Batman film.

[Mister E]

I’ve heard this before and, honestly, I have a hard time understanding it. Yeah, he’s got that pretty, young skin, but I think he was one of the best ‘superhero’ villains in a long, long time. His disappearance into the Scarecrow character is amazing. It took me about 4 viewings of each film until I realized that the Scarecrow was also the protagonist in 28 DAYS LATER. (And even now that I know that, I still have a very hard time seeing how.)

Me Too. I thought Cillian Murphy did an excellent job despite my own reservations of how Nolan wanted the Scarecrow. Also Murphy has those crazy, Christopher Walken eyes.

Awesome fan-made poster for a third Batman film.

I love it !

[Publius]

Awesome fan-made poster for a third Batman film.

I seem to recall that being posted on the last page of this thread.

And yes, I think there's a lot of potential there for the Riddler to square off intellectually against Batman. My favorite idea is to have him be the hero in the public's eyes, with Batman as the villain, but that would take some fantastic writing above even the quality seen in TDK. If it can be done, though, Nolan and company can do it.

[Judo chop]

I was thinking about how to make the Riddler and his riddles a compelling piece of the next Batman story. Apologies if this suggestion has already been broached, but….

First off, he’ll be sending Batman riddles which lead to the Riddler’s next attack on the public square. An obvious direction. Nothing surprising there.

Secondly, he could be sending out Riddles slowly leading to his own identity and/or location. A little creepier. Maybe those clues are genuine, maybe not.

And finally, the kicker…

…what if, at some point not too late in the film, the Riddler DISCOVERS Batman’s identity?

I’m thinking the Riddler needs to be pulling strings all over Gotham, and what more intriguing way than sending his riddles out to Batman’s enemies; either the public, or mob leaders, or whomever, slowly cluing them towards Wayne as the face behind the mask?

So, now there are riddles going in three different, critical directions. What does Batman do?

Does he try to save his own skin and try to interrupt the messages sent to his enemies which will expose Wayne and put an end to the one hope for Gotham? Does he expose himself to the public (the public that thinks he is a villain and wants him taken down) in order to save them from the next Riddler disaster? Or does he put both of those aside and go right at the Riddler only hoping that the riddles and their answers don’t lead him on a goose chase?

Annoying and stupid? Genius? Depends?

[Blonde Bond]

I’ve heard this before and, honestly, I have a hard time understanding it. Yeah, he’s got that pretty, young skin, but I think he was one of the best ‘superhero’ villains in a long, long time. His disappearance into the Scarecrow character is amazing. It took me about 4 viewings of each film until I realized that the Scarecrow was also the protagonist in 28 DAYS LATER. (And even now that I know that, I still have a very hard time seeing how.)

Me Too. I thought Cillian Murphy did an excellent job despite my own reservations of how Nolan wanted the Scarecrow. Also Murphy has those crazy, Christopher Walken eyes.

I think Gillian was as good as the role he was given. He does have those manic eyes. However, the character of Scarecrow could've been used in a different kind of movies. In my mind, the character would be better and more successful if he would be in a more scarier and darker role. The Scarecrow we had in the Nolan films, mainly in the first one, was just some guy who used gas to make his victims hallucinate. His character didn't use fear as much I would've hoped for.

Years ago, before Begins and I think even before Batman & Robin, when different villains were tossed around and when Scarecrow was mentioned, I hoped for a true "scary" version of the character would be used. Well, years later, in 'Begins' they did use the character. They just didn't play with the fear aspect too much. Then again, Scarecrow wasn't the main villain. But I'd hope when they decide to use the character again, they'd really make him the master of nightmares.

[Vauxhall]

Awesome fan-made poster for a third Batman film.

Most probably the best fan-made movie poster I have ever seen. Magnificent.

[Eddie Burns]

Sorry to dampen the mood somewhat but here goes...

I thought TDK was ok...nothing special. A slight improvement on BB but thats not saying much considering I wasn't particularly fond of that film. Take Ledger out of TDK and all you have is a by the numbers movie.

First of all...THAT was Gotham? Really? I found the depiction of the city (in both movies) uninspiring. At least for me, Batman doesn't work in a Michael Mann styled city. Personally, I never felt the chemistry of the city coupled with Batman. It wasn't as dark as I imagined.

The editing was as poor as they come, especially for a long movie. Characters had a tendency of jumping from one scene to the other without any explanation. Plus some scenes were cut too soon that left me with plenty of questions in my head. And I'm the type that rarely notices things like this I'll wait till there's a director's cut released on dvd. I'm sure that will help.

I don't see it as epic...and i wanted it to be epic. It tried too hard, and Ledger had a lot less screen time than I thought he would have had. The two-face reveal and the hospital blowing up were great. That was about it for me.

And please, all the pretentious talk about morality and such should really stop. Its been done before in countless other movies, the only difference here is that one is wearing a Batsuit and the other paints his face.

I like Batman, always have and always will, but these Nolan movies have really numbed any enthusiasm I once had. Nolan is overrated. To be honest, all his movies appear solid piece of works, but they would probably be significantly better if another directer had done them. I don't see anything distinct about him.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I was thinking about how to make the Riddler and his riddles a compelling piece of the next Batman story. Apologies if this suggestion has already been broached, but….

First off, he’ll be sending Batman riddles which lead to the Riddler’s next attack on the public square. An obvious direction. Nothing surprising there.

Secondly, he could be sending out Riddles slowly leading to his own identity and/or location. A little creepier. Maybe those clues are genuine, maybe not.

And finally, the kicker…

…what if, at some point not too late in the film, the Riddler DISCOVERS Batman’s identity?

I’m thinking the Riddler needs to be pulling strings all over Gotham, and what more intriguing way than sending his riddles out to Batman’s enemies; either the public, or mob leaders, or whomever, slowly cluing them towards Wayne as the face behind the mask?

So, now there are riddles going in three different, critical directions. What does Batman do?

Does he try to save his own skin and try to interrupt the messages sent to his enemies which will expose Wayne and put an end to the one hope for Gotham? Does he expose himself to the public (the public that thinks he is a villain and wants him taken down) in order to save them from the next Riddler disaster? Or does he put both of those aside and go right at the Riddler only hoping that the riddles and their answers don’t lead him on a goose chase?

Annoying and stupid? Genius? Depends?

Actually, I think it might be nice if the Riddler gives Batman a clue that leads Batman to the scene of a murder right before the police come; in essence, a frame-up of the Caped Crusader that puts him even more over the edge.

[Judo chop]

I was thinking about how to make the Riddler and his riddles a compelling piece of the next Batman story. Apologies if this suggestion has already been broached, but….

First off, he’ll be sending Batman riddles which lead to the Riddler’s next attack on the public square. An obvious direction. Nothing surprising there.

Secondly, he could be sending out Riddles slowly leading to his own identity and/or location. A little creepier. Maybe those clues are genuine, maybe not.

And finally, the kicker…

…what if, at some point not too late in the film, the Riddler DISCOVERS Batman’s identity?

I’m thinking the Riddler needs to be pulling strings all over Gotham, and what more intriguing way than sending his riddles out to Batman’s enemies; either the public, or mob leaders, or whomever, slowly cluing them towards Wayne as the face behind the mask?

So, now there are riddles going in three different, critical directions. What does Batman do?

Does he try to save his own skin and try to interrupt the messages sent to his enemies which will expose Wayne and put an end to the one hope for Gotham? Does he expose himself to the public (the public that thinks he is a villain and wants him taken down) in order to save them from the next Riddler disaster? Or does he put both of those aside and go right at the Riddler only hoping that the riddles and their answers don’t lead him on a goose chase?

Annoying and stupid? Genius? Depends?

Actually, I think it might be nice if the Riddler gives Batman a clue that leads Batman to the scene of a murder right before the police come; in essence, a frame-up of the Caped Crusader that puts him even more over the edge.

Otherwise known as 'a trap'. That could be the actual result of following the trail of Riddles that purportedly leads to the Riddler himself. But maybe Batman is on to the trap, and sets up another gag with Gordon so that it appears Batman has been arrested, drawing the Riddler out into the open.

[00Twelve]

Some nice thinking, Judo. I like where you're going with the Riddler thing. No doubt in my mind, he's the best option for a villain in BB3.

Some on the web have mused that a "Nolanesque" Riddler would be closer in concept to the Zodiac killer in terms of how he sends riddles. However, my own personal opinion is that Riddler isn't a murderer (at least, not by his own hand), so that only leaves the bare concept of the Zodiac killer's method of sending codes to the newspaper.

Some fan even made a rather awesome (IMO) poster based on this concept. This is, make no mistake, a FAKE poster.

[DamnCoffee]

I love this poster!

[Andrew]

That's the third time it has been posted in this thread

[00Twelve]

Ah, yes, I see.

At least it's a sweet image!

No?

Nobody?

'kay.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I was thinking about how to make the Riddler and his riddles a compelling piece of the next Batman story. Apologies if this suggestion has already been broached, but….

First off, he’ll be sending Batman riddles which lead to the Riddler’s next attack on the public square. An obvious direction. Nothing surprising there.

Secondly, he could be sending out Riddles slowly leading to his own identity and/or location. A little creepier. Maybe those clues are genuine, maybe not.

And finally, the kicker…

…what if, at some point not too late in the film, the Riddler DISCOVERS Batman’s identity?

I’m thinking the Riddler needs to be pulling strings all over Gotham, and what more intriguing way than sending his riddles out to Batman’s enemies; either the public, or mob leaders, or whomever, slowly cluing them towards Wayne as the face behind the mask?

So, now there are riddles going in three different, critical directions. What does Batman do?

Does he try to save his own skin and try to interrupt the messages sent to his enemies which will expose Wayne and put an end to the one hope for Gotham? Does he expose himself to the public (the public that thinks he is a villain and wants him taken down) in order to save them from the next Riddler disaster? Or does he put both of those aside and go right at the Riddler only hoping that the riddles and their answers don’t lead him on a goose chase?

Annoying and stupid? Genius? Depends?

Actually, I think it might be nice if the Riddler gives Batman a clue that leads Batman to the scene of a murder right before the police come; in essence, a frame-up of the Caped Crusader that puts him even more over the edge.

Otherwise known as 'a trap'. That could be the actual result of following the trail of Riddles that purportedly leads to the Riddler himself. But maybe Batman is on to the trap, and sets up another gag with Gordon so that it appears Batman has been arrested, drawing the Riddler out into the open.

Well, actually, I've revised the concept: The Riddler taunts Bruce Wayne himself with a phone message asking him to come alone, as himself. Wayne comes, carrying a derringer... then blacks out, and when he wakes up, the police have surrounded him at a crime scene, where he is covered in blood and the body of Coleman Reese is lying nearby, its face carved over with a bat symbol.

[sharpshooter]

Schumacher's proposed Batman 3 film with poster:

Attached Files

•  Battothefuturecopy.jpg   201.44KB   24 downloads

[Blofeld's Cat]

Schumacher's proposed Batman 3 film with poster:

From him, I believe it!!

[Harmsway]

First off, he’ll be sending Batman riddles which lead to the Riddler’s next attack on the public square. An obvious direction. Nothing surprising there.

Actually, I don't think that's really the right direction to go at all. I don't want to see the Riddler making attacks on the public square, I want to see him go after Batman in a very singular way.

My idea is this (and I've said it before), the Riddler has found out the truth about the Harvey Dent cover-up through deduction and then some research - after all, it's hardly watertight - and has decided to use it as leverage over Batman. He murders corrupt cops and the remnants of the mob (old Harvey Dent targets, in other words), and leaves scrawled notes and cyphers written on Dent's stolen case files. In other words, the illusion is that Dent has returned from the dead, but it's really just part of a mind game.

Secondly, he could be sending out Riddles slowly leading to his own identity and/or location. A little creepier. Maybe those clues are genuine, maybe not.

Well, his name is E. Nigma, which would work really well as a sort of fake "John Doe" alias that he's created for himself, effectively erasing any links to his past.

…what if, at some point not too late in the film, the Riddler DISCOVERS Batman’s identity?

I’m thinking the Riddler needs to be pulling strings all over Gotham, and what more intriguing way than sending his riddles out to Batman’s enemies; either the public, or mob leaders, or whomever, slowly cluing them towards Wayne as the face behind the mask?

His comic book characterization wouldn't do it. In HUSH, the Riddler discovered Batman's identity and then realized he couldn't share it with anyone - after all, what's the good of a riddle that everyone knows the answer to?

[Gobi-1]

As much as I love the fan made poster. I just don't like the idea of The Riddler being covered with question mark tattoos. It's like they're trying to make The Riddler too much like Ledger's Joker. Really crazy and insane. I'd prefer something closer to The Riddler of Batman: The Animated Series.



Just tone it down a little bit. The Riddler should be the opposite of the Joker. While the Joker is insane the Riddler should be sane. While the Joker is disheveled the Riddler should be stylish. I would avoid the question mark jumpsuit and stick to suits and ties in dark shades of green.

[Harmsway]

I just don't like the idea of The Riddler being covered with question mark tattoos.

I love it it. Gives him a very eerie edge, almost taking a cue from Calendar Man's tattoos and applying it to the Riddler.

The Riddler should be the opposite of the Joker.

I entirely disagree. The Riddler should be a full on psychotic in the tradition of the Joker, exemplifying the overall descent of Gotham into this sort of madness. After all, the Joker's history-making conflict with Batman is going to inspire many more psychos to take on Batman, and that's precisely what I see going on with Riddler (who's egotistical and arrogant, out to assert his own brilliance over that of Batman). He should be, both in the eyes of Batman/Gordon and the audience, a successor to the Joker, and cut from similar cloth.

The Riddler should definitely be distinguished from the Joker, but I suggest that should be done in personality, motivation, and modus operandi. You can still have a whole other brand of crazy as embodied in Edward Nigma.

[00Twelve]

I just don't like the idea of The Riddler being covered with question mark tattoos.

I love it it. Gives him a very eerie edge, almost taking a cue from Calendar Man's tattoos and applying it to the Riddler.

The Riddler should be the opposite of the Joker.

I entirely disagree. The Riddler should be a full on psychotic in the tradition of the Joker, exemplifying the overall descent of Gotham into this sort of madness. After all, the Joker's history-making conflict with Batman is going to inspire many more psychos to take on Batman, and that's precisely what I see going on with Riddler (who's egotistical and arrogant, out to assert his own brilliance over that of Batman). He should be, both in the eyes of Batman/Gordon and the audience, a successor to the Joker, and cut from similar cloth.

The Riddler should definitely be distinguished from the Joker, but I suggest that should be done in personality, motivation, and modus operandi. You can still have a whole other brand of crazy as embodied in Edward Nigma.

Entirely agreed, Harms. Look at the name by itself. It even follows the pattern of "The ___er". It's a very logical choice, IMO, to have the Riddler rise up after the indefinite incarceration of the Joker. None of the traditional Batman rogues are quite as dangerous as the Joker, because of the Joker's unpredictability and impulsiveness. But in terms of a calculating, formidable villain that could be the first to follow in his footsteps, I can see no one but the Riddler stepping up.

Now that I think harder about it, I'm not sure I'm down with the "finds out Batman's identity" angle, either. I remember that they went that route with Jim Carrey, and (though the execution bears the most responsibility for this) it wasn't all that terribly compelling. What's important is that he forces Batman into a position where he must pursue the answers to the riddles or else allow real damage to come to Gotham.

[Gobi-1]

I just don't like the idea of The Riddler being covered with question mark tattoos.

I love it it. Gives him a very eerie edge, almost taking a cue from Calendar Man's tattoos and applying it to the Riddler.

Then simply introduce Calender Man into the next film. Why give The Riddler the attributes of another character when you could simply have that character as well? Calendar Man was one of the characters in The Long Halloween which was one of the inspirations for "The Dark Knight." If they adapted Dark Victory for the sequel Calendar Man could have a role as he was a character in the story as well.

It would give casual fans another lesser known villain for the films. I greatly enjoyed Scarecrow and Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins although I was only vaguely familiar with them.

And the reason I would rather have a sane Riddler is because I find that far scarier then if he was simply insane. A villain potentially as dangerous as The Joker but completely sane and in control.

Different strokes for different folks.

[HildebrandRarity]

...these Nolan movies have really numbed any enthusiasm I once had. Nolan is overrated. To be honest, all his movies appear solid piece of works, but they would probably be significantly better if another directer had done them. I don't see anything distinct about him.

But didn't he actually produce and co-write TDK? He wasn't just director only. Does that not distinguish him, make him 'distinct'?

[Harmsway]

Entirely agreed, Harms. Look at the name by itself. It even follows the pattern of "The ___er". It's a very logical choice, IMO, to have the Riddler rise up after the indefinite incarceration of the Joker. None of the traditional Batman rogues are quite as dangerous as the Joker, because of the Joker's unpredictability and impulsiveness. But in terms of a calculating, formidable villain that could be the first to follow in his footsteps, I can see no one but the Riddler stepping up.

Then simply introduce Calender Man into the next film.

Nah, he's a boring character.

Why give The Riddler the attributes of another character when you could simply have that character as well?

Because the character isn't worth having, so it's best to take those good attributes and apply them to a character with more potential. In theory, it's no different than the way they merged Henri Ducard and Ra's al Ghul in BATMAN BEGINS.

And the reason I would rather have a sane Riddler is because I find that far scarier then if he was simply insane. A villain potentially as dangerous as The Joker but completely sane and in control.

Well, I don't really see the need for the sane/insane divide. He's either dangerous or he's not, regardless of his mental state, and I think it's essential that the villain of BB3 follows in the footsteps of the Joker in the sense that he's an insane theatrical criminal. The Riddler has to be one of the "freaks."

[Loomis]

...these Nolan movies have really numbed any enthusiasm I once had. Nolan is overrated. To be honest, all his movies appear solid piece of works, but they would probably be significantly better if another directer had done them. I don't see anything distinct about him.

But didn't he actually produce and co-write TDK? He wasn't just director only. Does that not distinguish him, make him 'distinct'?

I know I'm on thin ice saying this on a Bond site, where people tend to shoot right back with "Yes, but look at how the 007 films survived the departure of Terence Young", but, for me, Nolan is the Batman franchise. I'd have no automatic interest in BATMAN BEGINS 3 without him. If forced to choose, I'd unhesitatingly pick BB3 directed by Nolan but sans Bale over BB3 with Bale but no Nolan.

My hopes for BB3 (although, frankly, perhaps it would be a smart idea to call it a day with THE DARK KNIGHT):

Title: THE CAPED CRUSADER.

Director: Christopher Nolan (obviously).

Running time: Much shorter than TDK. 90 minutes, say.

Plot: Something to do with Wayne learning more about Wayne Enterprises. What does he know and what doesn't he know about his own company? What if it had an employee like.... the Joker? An MI6 traitor type, in Bond flick parlance. Also, what if it turned out that Thomas Wayne wasn't quite the saint we all thought? Now, I daresay that such issues have been explored in the comics, but I think they'd be interesting territory for the next film.

No return of Two-Face and no recasting of the Joker.

Larger roles for Caine and Freeman.

The return of Falcone, possibly as the main villain, and ideally to be played by Tom Wilkinson again.

[Harmsway]

My hopes for BB3 (although, frankly, perhaps it would be a smart idea to call it a day with THE DARK KNIGHT):

Title: THE CAPED CRUSADER.

I'm interested that you don't think this title is a bit cartoony for Nolan's Batman. My personal title pick is HUNT THE DARK KNIGHT (taken from one of the chapter titles of Miller's THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS).

The return of Falcone, possibly as the main villain, and ideally to be played by Tom Wilkinson again.

You mean you'd like to see Falcone as a crazed lunatic?