1269 replies to this topic

[Loomis]

I don't believe REVENGE OF THE SITH was the best of the prequels by a long shot. You know what was...

THE PHANTOM MENACE. It's infamous in its reputation, but it's quite overstated. It might be boring, but it's nowhere near as overtly and abhorrently awful as the other two. Really, it's harmless. And because Lucas is actually using real sets, it feels like a genuine movie.

I disagree. MENACE has a couple of cool things about it (e.g. Darth Maul, and a coupla pretty good scenes on Tattooine), but it's still an awful, awful film, regardless of whether Lucas used real sets or not. It's boring, juvenile, tells a hopelessly muddled and fundamentally uninteresting story, and is totally devoid of any heart or flair. Charmless dreck, and by far the most childish of all the STAR WARS flicks (which is saying something).

The best of the prequels - and, incidentally, my favourite STAR WARS outing - is ATTACK OF THE CLONES. It's very, very flawed, of course, but boasts some fascinating characters and plot elements and some terrific design. What's more, it has a wonderfully epic feel, and I remember Harry Knowles making a good argument that it was actually very much like a Bond film in some ways.

I never cared much for SITH, though, although it's certainly a lot better than MENACE.

[[dark]]

The best of the prequels - and, incidentally, my favourite STAR WARS outing - is ATTACK OF THE CLONES.

At the risk of dragging this off-topic, Loomis, care to elaborate on why you prefer Attack of the Clones over the likes of A New Hope or The Empire Strikes Back? Your offbeat franchise favourites never fail to catch me off-guard!

[Mister E]

The best of the prequels - and, incidentally, my favourite STAR WARS outing - is ATTACK OF THE CLONES.

At the risk of dragging this off-topic, Loomis, care to elaborate on why you prefer Attack of the Clones over the likes of A New Hope or The Empire Strikes Back? Your offbeat franchise favourites never fail to catch me off-guard!

Yes, please do because ATOTC was complete to me and the worst in the series. Hayden Christensen could not act for rotten beans.

[Harmsway]

I disagree. MENACE has a couple of cool things about it (e.g. Darth Maul, and a coupla pretty good scenes on Tattooine), but it's still an awful, awful film, regardless of whether Lucas used real sets or not. It's boring, juvenile, tells a hopelessly muddled and fundamentally uninteresting story, and is totally devoid of any heart or flair. Charmless dreck, and by far the most childish of all the STAR WARS flicks (which is saying something).

Sure. But it's the most harmless of the STAR WARS prequels. It doesn't assault my sensibilities with outright awfulness like the latter two do. PHANTOM MENACE may be charmless dreck, but ATTACK OF THE CLONES is offensive dreck. Same for REVENGE OF THE SITH.

[Safari Suit]

Other good (or at least "fun") Part 3s:
A Nightmare on Elm Street 3: Dream Warriors
Friday the 13th 3D (Not any worse than the first two certainly, and enjoyably kitschy)
Beyond Re-Animator
The Exorcist III
Rocky III
Hellraiser III (A rare opinion but I prefer it to II)
Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome
Death Wish 3 (Hey, if I enjoy it I give credit, it doesn't matter "why")
Halloween III: Season Of The Witch (Leave me alone!)

[Mister E]

Death Wish 3 (Hey, if I enjoy it I give credit, it doesn't matter "why")

I LOVE Death Wish 3, it's my number one guilty pleasure movie. Paul Kersey just killing thugs left and right, Charles Bronson awesome-ness.

Edited by Mister E, 26 August 2008 - 10:11 PM.

[Loomis]

The best of the prequels - and, incidentally, my favourite STAR WARS outing - is ATTACK OF THE CLONES.

At the risk of dragging this off-topic, Loomis, care to elaborate on why you prefer Attack of the Clones over the likes of A New Hope or The Empire Strikes Back?

Erm, well, I just prefer it, I guess! Rather like I prefer THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN to CASINO ROYALE. I'd concede that STAR WARS (as I'm ancient enough to call the first one - I never refer to it as A NEW HOPE) and THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK are "better" films - y'know, being "objective" and everything.... but ATTACK OF THE CLONES just happens to float my boat more.

Probably not the in-depth and fascinatingly-argued answer you were after, but a true answer nonetheless.

And I can't believe I forgot to cite ROCKY III as a terrific second sequel.

Actually, talking of Stallone.... I'm reminded of another trend: a few franchises have had lacklustre (or, in the case of Rambo, flat-out awful) part threes redeemed by surprisingly good, Return to Form™ part fours: DIE HARD 4.0 was an improvement on DIE HARD WITH A VENGEANCE (albeit not all that much of one). LETHAL WEAPON 4 is miles better than LETHAL WEAPON 3. RAMBO is CITIZEN KANE next to RAMBO III. And even INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL, garbage though it is, is at least a cut above INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE. Maybe.

[Judo chop]

Actually, talking of Stallone.... I'm reminded of another trend: a few franchises have had lacklustre (or, in the case of Rambo, flat-out awful) part threes redeemed by surprisingly good, Return to Form™ part fours: DIE HARD 4.0 was an improvement on DIE HARD WITH A VENGEANCE (albeit not all that much of one). LETHAL WEAPON 4 is miles better than LETHAL WEAPON 3. RAMBO is CITIZEN KANE next to RAMBO III. And even INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL, garbage. though it is, is at least a cut above INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE. Maybe.

Quite right Loomis! (with only one quick edit )

It does seem like things have to get from bad to worse, to appalling, before they get better.
And in conclusion… I can’t wait for the next, NEXT Batman film!!!

[Mister E]

LETHAL WEAPON 4 is miles better than LETHAL WEAPON 3.

I agree on that. Also, I think LEATHAL WEAPON 2 is the best in the series.

Edited by Mister E, 26 August 2008 - 10:11 PM.

[Gabe Vieira]

I have good news, very bad news, and then some really good news.

1: Rumors are that Chris Nolan has found the perfect actress to play his Catwoman.
2: That actress is Cher. Yes, that Cher.
3: It's only a rumor. Thank the Lord.

Here's the link: http://www.telegraph...atman-film.html

This reporter needs to be strangled.

[Righty007]

I have good news, very bad news, and then some really good news.

1: Rumors are that Chris Nolan has found the perfect actress to play his Catwoman.
2: That actress is Cher. Yes, that Cher.
3: It's only a rumor. Thank the Lord.

Here's the link: http://www.telegraph...atman-film.html

This reporter needs to be strangled.

Smells like 100% rubbish. Plus, Cher is too old to play Catwoman.

[Publius]

The Empire Strikes Back was followed by the disappointing Return of the Jedi.

I think RotJ is a solid finish to the trilogy, and the part on Tatooine might be my favorite in the entire series. I also consider Endor the most beautiful Star Wars setting.

Really, even the Ewoks don't bother me. It was nice to see an indigenous group of primitives "overthrow" the Galactic Empire in a very small way that nevertheless enabled victory for the Rebellion in the more epic space battle taking place in orbit.

But of course, it's all for naught unless Light triumphs over Dark in the Emperor's chambers aboard the partially reconstructed Death Star. Luke faces his greatest temptations yet, while we finally get a glimpse of the dormant humanity in Vader that had been hinted at even when he was introduced as a borderline monster. Quiet and personal, the conflict is magnified in power when contrasted with the two other, more bombastic, ongoing struggles.

I liken the movie to The Last Crusade. Maybe the "weakest" of the three, but still a great film. I wouldn't mind if Batman 3 fit in with the other two the same way.

I don't believe REVENGE OF THE SITH was the best of the prequels by a long shot. You know what was...

THE PHANTOM MENACE. It's infamous in its reputation, but it's quite overstated. It might be boring, but it's nowhere near as overtly and abhorrently awful as the other two. Really, it's harmless. And because Lucas is actually using real sets, it feels like a genuine movie.

REVENGE OF THE SITH gets a pass from most folks 'cause it has what they wanted to see in it. But when you realize how horribly Lucas screws up all of the "sure thing" moments, it falls apart. It's a horrendous, appalling flick.

Thank you. Granted, I don't really like Menace, but if I could be spared Jar-Jar Binks and young Jamie Anakin, I'd watch it again. Can't say that it'd be so easy to get me to watch the other two once more.

[[dark]]

The Empire Strikes Back was followed by the disappointing Return of the Jedi.

I think RotJ is a solid finish to the trilogy, and the part on Tatooine might be my favorite in the entire series. I also consider Endor the most beautiful Star Wars setting.

Really, even the Ewoks don't bother me. It was nice to see an indigenous group of primitives "overthrow" the Galactic Empire in a very small way that nevertheless enabled victory for the Rebellion in the more epic space battle taking place in orbit.

But of course, it's all for naught unless Light triumphs over Dark in the Emperor's chambers aboard the partially reconstructed Death Star. Luke faces his greatest temptations yet, while we finally get a glimpse of the dormant humanity in Vader that had been hinted at even when he was introduced as a borderline monster. Quiet and personal, the conflict is magnified in power when contrasted with the two other, more bombastic, ongoing struggles.

I liken the movie to The Last Crusade. Maybe the "weakest" of the three, but still a great film. I wouldn't mind if Batman 3 fit in with the other two the same way.

I agree completely - on everything. It's just that it doesn't match the high of The Empire Strikes Back.

[Harmsway]

I don't really think RETURN OF THE JEDI is a decent film at all. I'll concede that the Luke/Vader thing is resolved reasonably well (though I think Vader could have been handled somewhat better). As for the rest of it, it's lazily plotted, with mediocre character development for everyone aside from Luke/Vader (the Leia "twist" is entirely unnecessary). And while the ewoks may not be all that bad, they're certainly a weak- finale for the epic conclusion to a space opera.

So RETURN OF THE JEDI is far from an awful film in my book, but it's far from a "great film." EMPIRE gave JEDI a great set-up, but Lucas decided to avoid the interesting route and turned out something of a mixed bag (no surprise, either, since Lucas was rather unhappy with the more dramatic direction EMPIRE had taken).

If BB3 is anything like RETURN OF THE JEDI, count me out. BB3 needs to be the exact opposite of JEDI... daring, original, and innovative, doing something very different from what has come before but with the same creative spirit.

[Jim]

I have good news, very bad news, and then some really good news.

1: Rumors are that Chris Nolan has found the perfect actress to play his Catwoman.
2: That actress is Cher. Yes, that Cher.
3: It's only a rumor. Thank the Lord.

Well, if done as an ancient, raddled Ma Baker type, it could be fun. But no doubt someone will claim that's not true to the "lore" or some such piffle.

[Publius]

with mediocre character development for everyone aside from Luke/Vader (the Leia "twist" is entirely unnecessary).

I agree with you there. I think Harrison Ford's suggestion of having Han Solo die could have given the movie the emotional weight it was missing. From selfish scoundrel to rebel warrior to hero who valiantly sacrifices himself, it would have been the logical conclusion to his character's evolution.

[Safari Suit]

Return of the Jedi is the only SW movie I really liked. (Although I haven't seen the first two or Phantom Menace since I was twelve, and never saw Attack of the Clones)

[Judo chop]

with mediocre character development for everyone aside from Luke/Vader (the Leia "twist" is entirely unnecessary).

I agree with you there. I think Harrison Ford's suggestion of having Han Solo die could have given the movie the emotional weight it was missing. From selfish scoundrel to rebel warrior to hero who valiantly sacrifices himself, it would have been the logical conclusion to his character's evolution.

And for some reason you think Lucas won’t do that in a future version?

Remember: you can do ANYTHING with CGI these days!!!

There’s still space in the frame next to the ghosts of Obi Wan, Yoda and the (new, young) Anakin. I think it’s time to tweak the Ewok Victory music again anyway.

[dodge]

Does anyone know where the Batman 3 thread went?

[Judo chop]

Dunno. This is The Dark Jedi Knight thread, dodge.

[Publius]

I think it’s time to tweak the Ewok Victory music again anyway.

I can just see them in a Chuck E. Cheese's-style animatronic band with Chewbacca and Jar-Jar, playing the very best of Journey, complete with laser lights (provided by R2) and a fog machine.

Does anyone know where the Batman 3 thread went?

Taking a smoking break outside. Lord knows he needed one.

[[dark]]

The Hollywood Reporter has a great Dark Knight debrief, which holds this information about a third Batman flick...

Warners and Legendary are both interested in doing a third in the series, but all involved say it will be up to Nolan to come to them with a story and a plan.

"There are a lot of us who emotionally would love to do it," Roven says. "But it's really Chris' call. Chris is the kind of filmmaker who just doesn't think about the next movie before he has completely finished the movie he is working on."

For now, Nolan is taking a well-earned vacation.

Says Roven, "When he comes back, we will see how he feels."

[Harmsway]

The Hollywood Reporter has a great Dark Knight debrief, which holds this information about a third Batman flick...

Warners and Legendary are both interested in doing a third in the series, but all involved say it will be up to Nolan to come to them with a story and a plan.

"There are a lot of us who emotionally would love to do it," Roven says. "But it's really Chris' call. Chris is the kind of filmmaker who just doesn't think about the next movie before he has completely finished the movie he is working on."

For now, Nolan is taking a well-earned vacation.

Says Roven, "When he comes back, we will see how he feels."

It seems that all involved is respecting Nolan's "ownership" of this franchise. Good thing, too.

[Loomis]

Well, it sounds to me as though they're just giving Nolan first refusal on BB3 - which is exactly what you'd expect them to do. But if Nolan walks, you can be sure that the franchise will continue, because the people who really own it will want to earn a few more squillions. Not that a non-Nolan BB3 will necessarily get me into a cinema, mind.

Watched a little bit of Burton's BATMAN on TV last night and was reminded of how ludicrously studio-bound it looks. The backgrounds are so fake that it's like watching a filmed play! All of which goes to show: if it isn't Nolan, then it isn't really Batman.

Mind you, I've ordered THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS for my first foray into comic book Batmania.

[Harmsway]

Mind you, I've ordered THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS for my first foray into comic book Batmania.

I only dramatically gesture in such a way because I rather strongly dislike THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, and I'm guessing you will, too. And then I fear that once you've read it, you'll quickly dismiss the idea of ever picking up another Batman comic after such a poor experience.

[Loomis]

Mind you, I've ordered THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS for my first foray into comic book Batmania.

I only dramatically gesture in such a way because I rather strongly dislike THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, and I'm pretty sure you will, too. And then I fear that once you've read it, you'll quickly dismiss the idea of ever picking up another Batman comic after such a poor experience.

LOL! I knew you'd disapprove, Harms.

The only reason I went for THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is that what I was really doing was ordering WATCHMEN from Amazon, and they had a deal going whereby TDKR would be thrown in for about twenty quid for both books, so I thought I might as well go for it. I guess I could have shopped around and gotten 'em for less, but then I figured that I've saved such a fortune through never buying comic books all my life that I might as well splurge.

In any case, our tastes are often so dissimilar (e.g. you like THERE WILL BE BLOOD and I don't, and I like RAMBO and you don't, etc., etc.) that I suspect I'll end up raving about TDKR - maybe even considering it superior to WATCHMEN.

[Harmsway]

The only reason I went for THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is that what I was really doing was ordering WATCHMEN from Amazon, and they had a deal going whereby TDKR would be thrown in for about twenty quid for both books, so I thought I might as well go for it.

Ah, makes sense.

In any case, our tastes are often so dissimilar (e.g. you like THERE WILL BE BLOOD and I don't, and I like RAMBO and you don't, etc., etc.) that I suspect I'll end up raving about TDKR - maybe even considering it superior to WATCHMEN.

Maybe, maybe not. You despised SIN CITY, and much of SIN CITY is in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. In other words, its Frank Miller at his most Frank Miller-esque.

And I won't be surprised in the slightest if you dislike WATCHMEN. I'm anticipating a rather scathing review.

[Loomis]

You're an 80's-lovin' guy, and THE DARK KNIGHT is pure 80s. So much so that it feels like Batman as done by Paul Verhoeven circa ROBOCOP.

Interesting. I wonder whether that had anything to do with Miller getting the ROBOCOP 2 scripting gig.

Very tempted by both YEAR ONE and LONG HALLOWEEN. BTW, I remember seeing a graphic novel version of BATMAN BEGINS in a shop a coupla years ago, but can't seem to find any reference to it online. Do you know about this book?

Also, which would be the better soundtrack CD to pick up out of BB and THE DARK KNIGHT, in your opinion?

[Harmsway]

Interesting. I wonder whether that had anything to do with Miller getting the ROBOCOP 2 scripting gig.

I'm pretty sure it did.

Very tempted by both YEAR ONE and LONG HALLOWEEN.

I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy YEAR ONE and find a lot of things to like about LONG HALLOWEEN. They're both mob-centric in their own way.

BTW, I remember seeing a graphic novel version of BATMAN BEGINS in a shop a coupla years ago, but can't seem to find any reference to it online. Do you know about this book?

I do. It's just your standard movie comic book. Nothing interesting, just reguritated screen panels and an abbreviated story.

Also, which would be the better soundtrack CD to pick up out of BB and THE DARK KNIGHT, in your opinion?

They have a lot of overlap in sound, but THE DARK KNIGHT is unquestionably the better soundtrack. Even when they share material, THE DARK KNIGHT expands the orchestration so that it sounds more impressive than it did on BEGINS.

[[dark]]

Also, which would be the better soundtrack CD to pick up out of BB and THE DARK KNIGHT, in your opinion?

They have a lot of overlap in sound, but THE DARK KNIGHT is unquestionably the better soundtrack. Even when they share material, THE DARK KNIGHT expands the orchestration so that it sounds more impressive than it did on BEGINS.

Not that you asked my opinion, but I've been listening to both soundtracks quite a lot recently, and completely agree with Harmsway.

That said, if you enjoy the music, pick up both, Loomis. The way The Dark Knight expands and builds upon the themes presented in Batman Begins means The Dark Knight is an even richer listening experience if you have heard the foundations on which it is based.