1269 replies to this topic

[Loomis]

Cheers, guys.

[Loomis]

The only reason I went for THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is that what I was really doing was ordering WATCHMEN from Amazon, and they had a deal going whereby TDKR would be thrown in for about twenty quid for both books, so I thought I might as well go for it.

Ah, makes sense.

In any case, our tastes are often so dissimilar (e.g. you like THERE WILL BE BLOOD and I don't, and I like RAMBO and you don't, etc., etc.) that I suspect I'll end up raving about TDKR - maybe even considering it superior to WATCHMEN.

Maybe, maybe not. You despised SIN CITY, and much of SIN CITY is in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. In other words, its Frank Miller at his most Frank Miller-esque.

And I won't be surprised in the slightest if you dislike WATCHMEN. I'm anticipating a rather scathing review.

Well, the books have arrived, and I'm a few pages into WATCHMEN. I find it fascinating, although I'm not sure that I know how to "read" a graphic novel properly. What I mean by this is that my eye gravitates naturally to the speech balloons first, which means that the images hit me later. I dunno.... maybe that's the way to do it, or maybe it doesn't really matter either way. In any case, most of the interesting stuff seems to be verbal rather than visual, what with all the dialogue about politics, the Russians and so on.

What I'm driving at, though, is that I'm enjoying WATCHMEN as texts with illustrations, instead of as a fundamentally, how to put it? "Shot-driven" (like a film) piece of work. The main thing, though, is that I'm intrigued by it so far, and I may put further comments in the WATCHMEN thread once I'm finished.

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, on the other hand, looks pretty uninteresting, but that said I've really only just glanced at it and will give it a chance.

[spynovelfan]

Lots of visual stuf in WATCHMEN, Loomis, apart from the obvious, ie the masks and outfits and general pastiche of super-hero comics. Check out the graffiti in the backgrounds on the street, the shops - there's loads of stuff, all relevant to the story. But yes, it's much more like reading a novel than watching a film.

[Loomis]

Do I take it you're a WATCHMAN fan, spy? If so, you may be interested in the following thread (don't know whether you've seen it already):

http://debrief.comma...showtopic=48654

While we're on the subject, are there any comic books - or "graphic novels", if you prefer - you'd recommend, particularly in the spy genre? Bond, for instance? Modesty Blaise? I'm much more interested in story than in artwork (although striking artwork is, of course, a plus), and am interested in stuff that, like WATCHMEN, Is Not Just Yer Average Comic Book Fare™.

[spynovelfan]

I love WATCHMEN, and really like Moore as a writer. I saw there was a thread on the film, but haven't read it because I want to come to it fresh - and a film of this has gone through so many hurdles already it almost seems like masochism to read about more of it. It was due to start shooting when I interviewed Moore in 2004!

I am a fan of comics/graphic novels, whatever you want to call them, and at one point wanted to make my living as a professional cartoonist (I had one cartoon accepted by Punch, but they went broke before they published it!). I grew up reading Tintin and Asterix, but also American comics, starting at Caspar The Ghost and Richie Rich and moving onto superhero stuff: the Silver Surfer, Fantastic Four, Green Lantern, and then Frank Miller's Daredevil and The Dark Knight and more of the arty stuff like Spiegelman's RAW magazine, which is terrific (and which I still dip into). When I lived in Belgium, I got into the likes of Louis Joos, Schuiten & Peeters and several others.

Oddly enough, I really like Peter O'Donnell's Modesty Blaise novels but have never gotten into the comic strips. I know there are spyish graphic novels - Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, for instance, and the latest of Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, both of which riff on Bond - but I haven't gotten round to them yet. One very enjoyable espionage graphic novel is Jean Van Hamme's XIII, but I'm not sure how many of that series have been translated into English. Very influenced by Bourne - amnesiac secret agent - but then spins off into JFKish conspiracies and all sorts of oddness. Very good. I'll see if I can think of any more. Perhaps another thread, though.

[[dark]]

Well, the books have arrived, and I'm a few pages into WATCHMEN. I find it fascinating, although I'm not sure that I know how to "read" a graphic novel properly. What I mean by this is that my eye gravitates naturally to the speech balloons first, which means that the images hit me later. I dunno.... maybe that's the way to do it, or maybe it doesn't really matter either way. In any case, most of the interesting stuff seems to be verbal rather than visual, what with all the dialogue about politics, the Russians and so on.

What I'm driving at, though, is that I'm enjoying WATCHMEN as texts with illustrations, instead of as a fundamentally, how to put it? "Shot-driven" (like a film) piece of work. The main thing, though, is that I'm intrigued by it so far, and I may put further comments in the WATCHMEN thread once I'm finished.

I'm glad you posted this, Loomis, because I feel the same way. You could count the number of comic books I've read on one hand (and probably the number I've enjoyed on no hands at all).

Maybe they don't appeal to me at all, or maybe it's the fundamental issue that you point out: I don't know how to read them. I'd love to give Watchmen a shot before the film comes out, particularly in light of the praise heaped upon it as a graphic novel.

Pardon the naffness in asking how to read a comic book, but Harmsway, spynovelfan and any other comic aficionados, do you have any tips on how best to take in the graphic novel experience?

[Mister E]

Pardon the naffness in asking how to read a comic book, but Harmsway, spynovelfan and any other comic aficionados, do you have any tips on how best to take in the graphic novel experience?

Maybe you should try non-superhero graphic novels. As to your question, I don't get what you mean. I don't think you can really tell a person how to enjoy something.

[spynovelfan]

I've never really thought about it. I suppose I take in the panel first and the speech second, most of the time, but it's a fraction of a second between them. I don't have a method to reading them. Something I like about WATCHMEN, though, is that there is such a rich texture. With film, everything goes by very fast, whereas with a comic you can take it at your own pace and savour it. I suggest just diving in and giving it at least some time. Either you'll like it or not.

[Harmsway]

What I'm driving at, though, is that I'm enjoying WATCHMEN as texts with illustrations, instead of as a fundamentally, how to put it? "Shot-driven" (like a film) piece of work. The main thing, though, is that I'm intrigued by it so far, and I may put further comments in the WATCHMEN thread once I'm finished.

There are portions of WATCHMEN that are exceedingly textual (indeed, there are sections of the graphic novel that are just straight text... like the excerpts from UNDER THE HOOD, which you'll get to). But there are also later moments that are extremely visual. So it ends up being a compromise between the two.

As far as my own experience, I'm like spy. I don't really know whether I'm more focused on text or visuals. Depends on the graphic novel. With WATCHMEN, I was more text-focused on my first reading, and then grew to focus more on the art on the re-reads. But FROM HELL (perhaps the best graphic novel I've read) was largely a visual experience.

[Loomis]

spy,

Cheers for the recommendations. I'll give your Moore interview a read as well. Have you seen THE DARK KNIGHT, and if so what did you think of it? (If you can, try to see it on the big screen, for this is definitely not a DVD experience.)

I'm finding WATCHMEN fascinating, but it's not particularly easy to get into, and it's pretty bleak stuff so far. Funnily enough, in the wake of things like HEROES it doesn't seem as radical and groundbreaking now as I guess it may have done back in the '80s. I'm also wondering whether it's mainly just A Triumph of the Medium™, so to speak, rather than, well, a thumping good yarn on its own merits.

I'm about three chapters in, and already a few things have struck me as strange, although perhaps they'll be explained later on: why is Dr Manhattan initially drawn as a skyscraper-sized giant but a few pages later seems merely a rather tall chap? Why does he bugger off to Mars for no apparent reason? And, most pressingly, how did these people get their superpowers in the first place? Still, I guess it's premature for me to even be asking these questions at this stage.

(I know. I'm asking for help in understanding a comic book. )

[dodge]

spy,

Cheers for the recommendations. I'll give your Moore interview a read as well. Have you seen THE DARK KNIGHT, and if so what did you think of it? (If you can, try to see it on the big screen, for this is definitely not a DVD experience.)

I'm finding WATCHMEN fascinating, but it's not particularly easy to get into, and it's pretty bleak stuff so far. Funnily enough, in the wake of things like HEROES it doesn't seem as radical and groundbreaking now as I guess it may have done back in the '80s. I'm also wondering whether it's mainly just A Triumph of the Medium™, so to speak, rather than, well, a thumping good yarn on its own merits.

I'm about three chapters in, and already a few things have struck me as strange, although perhaps they'll be explained later on: why is Dr Manhattan initially drawn as a skyscraper-sized giant but a few pages later seems merely a rather tall chap? Why does he bugger off to Mars for no apparent reason? And, most pressingly, how did these people get their superpowers in the first place? Still, I guess it's premature for me to even be asking these questions at this stage.

(I know. I'm asking for help in understanding a comic book. )

Don't be ashamed. We've been assured that it's a towering literary masterpiece. cliff Notes can't be far behind.

[Harmsway]

I'm about three chapters in, and already a few things have struck me as strange, although perhaps they'll be explained later on: why is Dr Manhattan initially drawn as a skyscraper-sized giant but a few pages later seems merely a rather tall chap?

He can change his size at will.

Why does he bugger off to Mars for no apparent reason?

This one's reiterated later on, but he's grown distant and has decided to sever all ties with humanity.

And, most pressingly, how did these people get their superpowers in the first place?

Dr. Manhattan's the only one with superpowers, and his origin is told later on. The rest are just costume-wearing folk.

[Mister E]

This one's reiterated later on, but he's grown distant and has decided to sever all ties with humanity.

That reminds me of what Martian Manhunter did in JUSTICE LEAGU.

[dodge]

Pardon the naffness in asking how to read a comic book, but Harmsway, spynovelfan and any other comic aficionados, do you have any tips on how best to take in the graphic novel experience?

Maybe you should try non-superhero graphic novels. As to your question, I don't get what you mean. I don't think you can really tell a person how to enjoy something.

So true. And yet a few still do just that. Like the blissed out guy who asks his love, "Was it good for you too?" and then fumes when s/he pouts. "You must be frigid," he replies.

[Loomis]

Don't be ashamed. We've been assured that it's a towering literary masterpiece. cliff Notes can't be far behind.

You cynical so-and-so.

Of course, if one wanted to get one's list talked about, the surest way would be to include something "unusual" and "unexpected" on it, such as WATCHMEN. It thereby becomes more than just a list - it becomes an "interesting" list.

If I may ask yet another question that suggests I came down in the last shower, did the WATCHMENites of CBn "get" WATCHMEN first time round, or did it require multiple readings (viewings)?

Help in tying my own shoelaces will be solicited later.

[Harmsway]

If I may ask yet another question that suggests I came down in the last shower, did the WATCHMENites of CBn "get" WATCHMEN first time round, or did it require multiple readings (viewings)?

I "got" it the first time around, though I only got a lot of the connections and stuff the second and third time around. It's pretty dense - I realize something new every time I go back to it.

[spynovelfan]

Ditto.

[Loomis]

Finished WATCHMEN. Love it to bits. An astounding piece of work. Can't wait for the film.

Back to Batman, here's some BATMAN BEGINS 3 news courtesy of AICN and Aaron Eckhart:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/38179

1. Two-Face will not be returning.

2. Neither will Nolan. Or at least that's what Eckhart seems to be saying.

3. Perusing the Talkback, I gather that there's a notion that if Nolan were to call it quits Bale would do so too. On the other hand, I seem to recall reading somewhere once that Bale has been signed for three films (along with Caine).

4. Angelina Jolie wants to be Catwoman.

Personally, I think only 1. is a dead cert, but make of all the above what you will.

[Harmsway]

Back to Batman, here's some BATMAN BEGINS 3 news courtesy of AICN and Aaron Eckhart:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/38179

1. Two-Face will not be returning.

No kidding.

2. Neither will Nolan. Or at least that's what Eckhart seems to be saying.

Nah, I don't think so. I think Eckhart's saying that it's just really up in the air.

3. Perusing the Talkback, I gather that there's a notion that if Nolan were to call it quits Bale would do so too. On the other hand, I seem to recall reading somewhere once that Bale has been signed for three films (along with Caine).

Bale is signed for three, I believe.

4. Angelina Jolie wants to be Catwoman.

It's been said that she does. She'd be an awful choice.

[sharpshooter]

Jolie wants to be Catwoman.

Good for her. I'm sure many others do as well. Nolan will choose who he wants for the role, and that's that.

[[dark]]

Doubt it holds any water, but MTV spoke to Michael Caine about the next Batman flick's villains...

"I was with [a Warner Bros.] executive and I said, 'Are we going to make another one?' They said yeah. I said, 'How the hell are we going to top Heath?' And he says 'I'll tell you how you top Heath — Johnny Depp as The Riddler and Philip Seymour Hoffman as The Penguin.' I said, 'S–t, they’ve done it again!'"

[Mister E]

Doubt it holds any water, but MTV spoke to Michael Caine about the next Batman flick's villains...

"I was with [a Warner Bros.] executive and I said, 'Are we going to make another one?' They said yeah. I said, 'How the hell are we going to top Heath?' And he says 'I'll tell you how you top Heath — Johnny Depp as The Riddler and Philip Seymour Hoffman as The Penguin.' I said, 'S–t, they’ve done it again!'"

Hells yeah ! Also, I know this would never happen, Robert Costanzo should be cast as Detective Harvey Bullock. He did an excellent job in the animated series and he could easily play the character in Nolan's films. This would also give him a chance to play the role in a less kid friendly atmosphere.

Edited by Mister E, 08 September 2008 - 11:53 PM.

[Harmsway]

Evidence that Nolan is 'on' BATMAN 3

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/38633



We've never heard one way or the other whether Christopher Nolan would return for the next BATMAN movie (which isn't likely to have "Batman" in the title if I understand correctly).

We've heard that Nolan was "on vacation" and had yet to return to discuss a new project. We've hear whispers that he wouldn't come back , and that alternate directions for the franchise were being considered. We've heard there's been little-to-no talk of another BATMAN movie at all. Last week, AICN received a few e-mails indicating that a BATMAN film was gearing up to start production early next year in the Chicago area, but Nolan's name was nowhere to be found on the project's preliminary information. AND, in a recent interview I can't seem to locate at the moment, one interviewee from Warners revealed that (I'm paraphrasing) Nolan's return was clearly desirable, but was in no way assured (if anyone knows of a link to said interview, please post in Talkbacks below).

Well, the usually reliable Production Weekly (HERE), which (according to its front page) provides the entertainment industry with a comprehensive breakdown of projects in pre-production, preparation, and active development for film and television., has now listed a BATMAN 3 as going into pre-production early next year - with Nolan directing Christian Bale, Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine, and Gary Oldman.

It's...uncommon...to hear this kind of news without first hearing noisier allusions from other channels, so it's probably prudent to take this with a grain of salt until further & officialer details come down the pipeline. However, Production Weekly isn't known for going off half-cocked, and we've previously gleaned information like this from far funkier sources. One example: before Len Wiseman was officially announced for LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD, some guys on a plane were discussing his attachment to the project...they were overheard by a passenger who then wrote in to tell us the news. So, it may not be wise to completely dismiss this new Nolan information either.

Can't wait to see how this shakes out. More news as more comes in...

[Mister E]

This doesn't sound too good but I'll chaulk it up to rumors.

[Harmsway]

This doesn't sound too good but I'll chaulk it up to rumors.

What doesn't sound too good?

[Qwerty]

Evidence that Nolan is 'on' BATMAN 3

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/38633



We've never heard one way or the other whether Christopher Nolan would return for the next BATMAN movie (which isn't likely to have "Batman" in the title if I understand correctly).

We've heard that Nolan was "on vacation" and had yet to return to discuss a new project. We've hear whispers that he wouldn't come back , and that alternate directions for the franchise were being considered. We've heard there's been little-to-no talk of another BATMAN movie at all. Last week, AICN received a few e-mails indicating that a BATMAN film was gearing up to start production early next year in the Chicago area, but Nolan's name was nowhere to be found on the project's preliminary information. AND, in a recent interview I can't seem to locate at the moment, one interviewee from Warners revealed that (I'm paraphrasing) Nolan's return was clearly desirable, but was in no way assured (if anyone knows of a link to said interview, please post in Talkbacks below).

Well, the usually reliable Production Weekly (HERE), which (according to its front page) provides the entertainment industry with a comprehensive breakdown of projects in pre-production, preparation, and active development for film and television., has now listed a BATMAN 3 as going into pre-production early next year - with Nolan directing Christian Bale, Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine, and Gary Oldman.

It's...uncommon...to hear this kind of news without first hearing noisier allusions from other channels, so it's probably prudent to take this with a grain of salt until further & officialer details come down the pipeline. However, Production Weekly isn't known for going off half-cocked, and we've previously gleaned information like this from far funkier sources. One example: before Len Wiseman was officially announced for LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD, some guys on a plane were discussing his attachment to the project...they were overheard by a passenger who then wrote in to tell us the news. So, it may not be wise to completely dismiss this new Nolan information either.

Can't wait to see how this shakes out. More news as more comes in...

Here's hoping.

[Navy007Fan]

Here is the latest on this from Batman-on-Film.

[Mister E]

This doesn't sound too good but I'll chaulk it up to rumors.

What doesn't sound too good?

Sorry, I meant the possibility of Nolan's departure.

[sharpshooter]

Nolan on his future with the series:

Well ... let me think how to put this. There are two things to be said. One is the emphasis on story. What’s the story? Is there a story that’s going to keep me emotionally invested for the couple of years that it will take to make another one? That’s the overriding question. On a more superficial level, I have to ask the question: How many good third movies in a franchise can people name? [Laughs.] At the same time, in taking on the second one, we had the challenge of trying to make a great second movie, and there haven't been too many of those either. It’s all about the story really. If the story is there, everything is possible. I hope that was a suitably slippery answer.

[Harmsway]

Let's hope they can get a compelling story together.

That said, more and more I feel like I'd be satisfied with just BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT.