196 replies to this topic

[zencat]

The crackup with the picket lines so far is some writers are trying to send their assistants to stand in for them. No, I'm not making it up.

I don't believe that for one second.

[Dr. Noah]

The crackup with the picket lines so far is some writers are trying to send their assistants to stand in for them. No, I'm not making it up.

I don't believe that for one second.

Okay.

[zencat]

The reason I don't believe it is you don't have to walk the lines. No one checks off your name. So why would writers need to send assistants in their place? What place? (Also many writers assistants are also Guild members, so seeing assistants on the lines is not unusual.)

I've been on the lines for two days so I'm getting a very good idea of exactly who is out there. It's amazing really. There are writers of all stripes and all levels. I was marching beside Joss Weadon this morning. There's tremendous support and unity (so far). More than I expected.

And so far I have spotted no Bentleys.

[Dr. Noah]

Well, I'm glad you see that out there. It's good to read. Didn't mean to offend anybody. Just offering my own anecdote from the lines.

[blueman]

I'll tell you a good non-union story.

I sold my first screenplay right out of college. We weren't in the union yet, so there were no minimums as to what they could pay us. No protections. We were just thrilled to get something made, and signed a flat deal. Two years later that movie came out in theaters and was #1 in the US. It was the top bill at my local movie house... and I passed it every day on my way to work at a video store, where I made something near minimum wage. Before I got another gig I was renting my own movie to people at Sam Goody.

The studio was making millions off my work, and I was cleaning kiddie vomit off the carpets for six bucks an hour in the children's video section.

Honest truth.

Not surprised to hear such a story, hope you've been more fortunate since then.

[Dr. Noah]

Not surprised to hear such a story, hope you've been more fortunate since then.

LOL

Thanks. I'm doing fine. But I've still got a lot of stories!

[zencat]

Well, I'm glad you see that out there. It's good to read. Didn't mean to offend anybody. Just offering my own anecdote from the lines.

Sorry I snapped at you, Dr. Noah. I'm sure it could be true. But my experience, especially today, was just so positive and uncynical... I really didn't expect to see major writers out there. But they really are out there and they stick all day. I'm amazed at the commitment, not just from them, but from myself. So I'm becoming very militant and protective of my fellow writers. Sorry.

[Dr. Noah]

Well, I'm glad you see that out there. It's good to read. Didn't mean to offend anybody. Just offering my own anecdote from the lines.

Sorry I snapped at you, Dr. Noah. Maybe it's true...I don't know. But my experienced, especially today, was just so positive and uncynical. I really didn't expect to see major writers out there. But they really are out there and they stick all day. I'm amazed at the commitment, not just from them, but from myself. So I'm becoming very militant and protective of my fellow writers. Sorry.

LOL

I didn't mean everybody was doing it. I was actually told the story by another writer at Jerry's Deli. So who knows, maybe it is BS.

[zencat]

Well, I'm glad you see that out there. It's good to read. Didn't mean to offend anybody. Just offering my own anecdote from the lines.

Sorry I snapped at you, Dr. Noah. Maybe it's true...I don't know. But my experienced, especially today, was just so positive and uncynical. I really didn't expect to see major writers out there. But they really are out there and they stick all day. I'm amazed at the commitment, not just from them, but from myself. So I'm becoming very militant and protective of my fellow writers. Sorry.

LOL

I didn't mean everybody was doing it. I was actually told the story by another writer at Jerry's Deli. So who knows, maybe it is BS.

You know...the more I think about it, of course it's true. It's gotta be true! LOL. (But let's not tell that writer they're not really keeping track of who shows and who doesn't. Let him live in fear of being "caught." ).

[byline]

Sod Bond - what sort of a ed up town is it that someone being paid $5,000,000 winges about corporate greed! Poor bastard.

I didn't get the sense that he was referring to himself as suffering misfortune. I got the impression he felt he needed to be there to support his fellow writers who aren't fortunate enough to get paid $5 million. Those are the ones who suffer most from the "corporate greed" he talked about.

[byline]

Yes, and in the real world when someone creates intellectual property they get paid for it whenever it's used.

In a perfect world. I'm a freelance writer and have written a few advertorials for the local paper, in addition to the feature stories I normally write. Imagine my surprise when an advertorial I'd written a year earlier popped up in the paper again. First I'd heard of it, and no, I never got a penny from the second version.

Not too long ago, the ad department asked me to rewrite a business story I'd written, this time to be used in an ad. Needless to say, I made sure I got paid for it this time around. Not much, but it was something.

By the way, the $5,000 annual average for WGA members sounds about right. No Bentleys for me!

[byline]

If the writers win the strike, will they start writing better?

No, but maybe they'll actually be able to make a living at it. It's not just an issue of creativity; writers are already creative people. The issue is one of professionalism. In addition to being creative, writers are also professionals and should be treated accordingly. All too often, they are not. Many people other than themselves make big money off their creativity. As with royalties, the idea behind residuals is to help them earn a reasonable, sustained livelihood.

Edited by byline, 08 November 2007 - 02:25 AM.

[Dr. Noah]

You know...the more I think about it, of course it's true. It's gotta be true! LOL. (But let's not tell that writer they're not really keeping track of who shows and who doesn't. Let him live in fear of being "caught." ).

Watch -- it'll end up as a subplot on Curb Your Enthusiasm.

[DLibrasnow]

In a perfect world. I'm a freelance writer and have written a few advertorials for the local paper, in addition to the feature stories I normally write. Imagine my surprise when an advertorial I'd written a year earlier popped up in the paper again. First I'd heard of it, and no, I never got a penny from the second version.

As a newspaper editor who often retains the services of contracted freelancers I think I can address this for you.

Once something is published in the newspaper it becomes the property of that newspaper. That's a necessary and needed precaution that the newspaper requires. You were after all paid to provide something to the newspaper.

Say you are a plumber and you are paid for a job. Do you retain ownership of the pipes you laid? No, they belong to the owners of the property to use as they see fit.

[byline]

In a perfect world. I'm a freelance writer and have written a few advertorials for the local paper, in addition to the feature stories I normally write. Imagine my surprise when an advertorial I'd written a year earlier popped up in the paper again. First I'd heard of it, and no, I never got a penny from the second version.

As a newspaper editor who often retains the services of contracted freelancers I think I can address this for you.

Once something is published in the newspaper it becomes the property of that newspaper. That's a necessary and needed precaution that the newspaper requires. You were after all paid to provide something to the newspaper.

Say you are a plumber and you are paid for a job. Do you retain ownership of the pipes you laid? No, they belong to the owners of the property to use as they see fit.

That's what I thought, until we signed a new contract last spring that stipulated what our rights are (I guess to protect both ourselves and the paper). According to that contract, rights to our stories and photos revert back to us after 90 days.

[zencat]

In a perfect world. I'm a freelance writer and have written a few advertorials for the local paper, in addition to the feature stories I normally write. Imagine my surprise when an advertorial I'd written a year earlier popped up in the paper again. First I'd heard of it, and no, I never got a penny from the second version.

As a newspaper editor who often retains the services of contracted freelancers I think I can address this for you.

Once something is published in the newspaper it becomes the property of that newspaper. That's a necessary and needed precaution that the newspaper requires. You were after all paid to provide something to the newspaper.

Say you are a plumber and you are paid for a job. Do you retain ownership of the pipes you laid? No, they belong to the owners of the property to use as they see fit.

Isn't "reuse" usually pretty clearly spelled out in a contract? It shouldn't be a surprise. Also you can negotiate terms of reuse (as you can negotiate anything in a contract). I know I wrote an article for a magic magazine once and I believe we granted one free reuse in their yearly "best of" issue. After that, they have to pay a percentage of the original payment price for each reuse. But maybe newspapers are different.

EDIT: Actually, I didn't write the article for the mag. It was an original I sold. So maybe that's why we could negotiate reuse.

[David Schofield]

You've obviously never been responsible for a piece of creative work that other people made money from...

There is an awful lot of naiivey in this thread. For anything to be considered "creative" it has to, apparently, have been written down. To be - ahem - art

What a load of pretentious garbage!

I have "created" - things like jobs, employment for others, income for their families (though this has been due to their hard work).

And I have had other people make money from me. The British Government. I have paid an awful lot of income tax.

Some of you really should grow up. Student politics really doesn't wash.

And let me ask you the odd one out:

Soldiers.
Nurses.
Writers.

Which of those deserve the LEAST symapthy regarding strike action. And which is the one that is the better paid, on average?

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WRITES THE JAMES BOND FILMS THAT THE LIKES OF YOU THINK THEY OWN JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A RARE POSTER AND A FEW RELATED BOOKS ON THEIR SHELVES?!! In this instance I don't give a toss about nurses and soldiers. From what I've gathered about the great U.S of A, there is no difference between soldiers, nurses and writers. They're all exploited by corporate wankers wanting to make the most money from the most people.

And why don't you "grow up" Schofield? Whoop-de-do Basil - you've created a few jobs. So what? Did you tell your staff that they only get paid four days out of six and that the other two days rely on commissions and bank interest to make a wage?

And - YES - of course being "creative" whether it's under your pathetic quote-unquote "ahem" bollocks is based on writing things down. How would you feel if you were told your last putrid, ill-informed thread on cBn would be split into four parts. You get paid for the first three sections, but the fourth paragraph's fee will be paid to the internet providers and advertisers and you will just have to settle for the glory that the first three parts were ever printed at all.

"I have "created" - things like jobs, employment for others, income for their families (though this has been due to their hard work)".....? So have I. Through my work as an artist. We all are to a degree, of course we are. But this is not about nurses or soldiers. This is about the entertainment industry. And some people need to realise that their misguided fandom would be defunct without it.

I get your points Schofield. But they are as misguided as the people's views you are criticising. When you have an agent, when you have royalties to think of, when you have international rights and second screening violations to ponder, then we'll all queue and watch your work of art. Right now, some people in America are standing up for what they believe in. That alone should not be criticised naively, but wholeheartedly supported.

Do I take is that this foul-mouthed, unreasoning rant means you conceed I'm correct - because you surely don't make a reasoned argument as to why I should feel sympathy for your point of view. And as for your literary aspirations, if this is an example, I'd consider another career. Basically, if you don't like someone's point of view, chucking mindless insults doesn't do a great deal for your credibility. Or any artistic protestations.

Life is tough for EVERYONE. I maintain soldiers and nurses have a tougher ride than writers. Clearly, you don't. Fair enough. And some careers don't have the benefit of strike action as an option, nor the backing of a bunch of unworldly, soap-box liberals. And clearly, you put creating "art" above the value of creating jobs. Fair enough.

But above all, IF you insist on ranting and insulting, rather than reasoning, remember I do not hide behind a screen name. My name is David Schofield. So it's either David, to you. Or if you prefer, Mr Schofield. I haven't been called Schofield since I left school. Didn't like it then. Like it less now.

So if you feel you've justifiably made your point, well done.

[Zorin Industries]

You've obviously never been responsible for a piece of creative work that other people made money from...

There is an awful lot of naiivey in this thread. For anything to be considered "creative" it has to, apparently, have been written down. To be - ahem - art

What a load of pretentious garbage!

I have "created" - things like jobs, employment for others, income for their families (though this has been due to their hard work).

And I have had other people make money from me. The British Government. I have paid an awful lot of income tax.

Some of you really should grow up. Student politics really doesn't wash.

And let me ask you the odd one out:

Soldiers.
Nurses.
Writers.

Which of those deserve the LEAST symapthy regarding strike action. And which is the one that is the better paid, on average?

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WRITES THE JAMES BOND FILMS THAT THE LIKES OF YOU THINK THEY OWN JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A RARE POSTER AND A FEW RELATED BOOKS ON THEIR SHELVES?!! In this instance I don't give a toss about nurses and soldiers. From what I've gathered about the great U.S of A, there is no difference between soldiers, nurses and writers. They're all exploited by corporate wankers wanting to make the most money from the most people.

And why don't you "grow up" Schofield? Whoop-de-do Basil - you've created a few jobs. So what? Did you tell your staff that they only get paid four days out of six and that the other two days rely on commissions and bank interest to make a wage?

And - YES - of course being "creative" whether it's under your pathetic quote-unquote "ahem" bollocks is based on writing things down. How would you feel if you were told your last putrid, ill-informed thread on cBn would be split into four parts. You get paid for the first three sections, but the fourth paragraph's fee will be paid to the internet providers and advertisers and you will just have to settle for the glory that the first three parts were ever printed at all.

"I have "created" - things like jobs, employment for others, income for their families (though this has been due to their hard work)".....? So have I. Through my work as an artist. We all are to a degree, of course we are. But this is not about nurses or soldiers. This is about the entertainment industry. And some people need to realise that their misguided fandom would be defunct without it.

I get your points Schofield. But they are as misguided as the people's views you are criticising. When you have an agent, when you have royalties to think of, when you have international rights and second screening violations to ponder, then we'll all queue and watch your work of art. Right now, some people in America are standing up for what they believe in. That alone should not be criticised naively, but wholeheartedly supported.

And clearly, you put creating "art" above the value of creating jobs. Fair enough.

In a way, that's exactly what I would say. But that's not quite the point here. My point is that when a writer writes a script he or she CREATES JOBS....from the admin junior who prints off the pages to the line producer, via the make-up dept, catering trucks, editor, cinema managers, videostore workers and those that then schedule TV listings and even those that print them...

There is a chain of employment at work here. When someone writes a script (which is what this thread was originally about) they CREATE more jobs than most employers will ever do.

Some people really think that being creative is choosing the right emoticon to buoy up their stubborn protestations. David Schofield - I think I can call you David now, no? (!) - just remember that Bond films do not hatch out of eggs nurtured by armchair film fans who think everyone in the chain of something like a 007 movie is paid millions.

[David Schofield]

[quote name='Zorin Industries' date='8 November 2007 - 11:00'
Some people really think that being creative is choosing the right emoticon to buoy up their stubborn protestations. David Schofield - I think I can call you David now, no? (!) - just remember that Bond films do not hatch out of eggs nurtured by armchair film fans who think everyone in the chain of something like a 007 movie is paid millions.
[/quote]


A calmer approach - and I see we've disposed of the student politics.

Frankly, my knowledge of how a film is made sketchy to non-existent. And from my understanding of celebrity and those connected with it, I am happy for it to remain that way. I am a fan of the character James Bond, and not the movie business. Nor do I understand teh internal politics of the movie industry when it comes to the mechanics of remuneration.

This thread is full of the tales of woe and misfortune, and a good deal of self-pity, of "writers" (I never knew there were so many CBNers connected with the business) which they have had the opportunity to air. And if writers are the of Hollywood and the creative world due to the nature of contracts, then that is extremely unfortunate. I geninely hope they are able to improve their prospects with the strike.

However, it simply AMUSES me, the concept of a Writers Strike: I find it hard not to smile when someone like Haggis can be paid $5,000,000 and winge then about corporate greed and excess. It appeals to my Northern English sense of humour the idea of T-shirted, shorts wearing types carrying plackards in the sun when my memory of strikes is of a crowd of scruffy, starving miners on picket lines in freezing winters confronted by police. That's all.

And at least they'll have the insentive of Mr Haggis' $5,000,000 if they can achieve similar success.

[Byron]

Class warfare is alive and well!

[Simon]

However, it simply AMUSES me, the concept of a Writers Strike: I find it hard not to smile when someone like Haggis can be paid $5,000,000 and winge then about corporate greed and excess.

And I daresay, in a dusty part of Liberia, there will be a similar conversation between a couple of hungry youngsters along the lines of;

'I can't believe those kids on the net, wingeing about how a film character can't be bigger, better, stronger while eating their apple pie, when we have nothing to eat.

Different worlds - everyone has Something to complain about.

[David Schofield]

Class warfare is alive and well!

Indeed.

You've no idea how hard it can be to get an internet connection down a coal mine.

[ACE]

Have you ever seen 2 T-Rex fight?

[Zorin Industries]

T-Rex's, Ace? Have you seen a T-Rex try and write a script? Their little tiny arms and hands can't quite reach the keyboard...

[ACE]

T-Rex's, Ace? Have you seen a T-Rex try and write a script? Their little tiny arms and hands can't quite reach the keyboard...

Script lad, script? I thurt their maird it oop as their went'long!
Thurse T-Rex? Bluddy, soft, shandy drinkin' Sutherners!
Ee, Dave, our pit's got brardband 'an all!

By T-Rex fighting, I meant, of course, the powerful Hollywood Studios and the all important WGA.

No...really^{Bryce (003)TM}.

[Zorin Industries]

"A calmer approach - and I see we've disposed of the student politics.

Frankly, my knowledge of how a film is made sketchy to non-existent. And from my understanding of celebrity and those connected with it, I am happy for it to remain that way. I am a fan of the character James Bond, and not the movie business. Nor do I understand teh internal politics of the movie industry when it comes to the mechanics of remuneration.

This thread is full of the tales of woe and misfortune, and a good deal of self-pity, of "writers" (I never knew there were so many CBNers connected with the business) which they have had the opportunity to air. And if writers are the of Hollywood and the creative world due to the nature of contracts, then that is extremely unfortunate. I geninely hope they are able to improve their prospects with the strike.

However, it simply AMUSES me, the concept of a Writers Strike: I find it hard not to smile when someone like Haggis can be paid $5,000,000 and winge then about corporate greed and excess. It appeals to my Northern English sense of humour the idea of T-shirted, shorts wearing types carrying plackards in the sun when my memory of strikes is of a crowd of scruffy, starving miners on picket lines in freezing winters confronted by police. That's all.

And at least they'll have the insentive of Mr Haggis' $5,000,000 if they can achieve similar success "


And - unless you were there in person - who exactly provided that "memory" of the miners strikes? TV cameramen, journalists, broadcast editors and news producers - that's who. And all of them work in a creative world with unions and employment laws that, if violated, would be worth striking and picketing for. Take a step back instead of an ill-informed leap forward...

Edited by Zorin Industries, 08 November 2007 - 01:52 PM.

[David Schofield]

T-Rex's, Ace? Have you seen a T-Rex try and write a script? Their little tiny arms and hands can't quite reach the keyboard...

Script lad, script? I thurt their maird it oop as their went'long!
Thurse T-Rex? Bluddy, soft, shandy drinkin' Sutherners!
Ee, Dave, our pit's got brardband 'an all!

By T-Rex fighting, I meant, of course, the powerful Hollywood Studios and the all important WGA.

No...really.

Perhaps the pit - or underground industrial work space as we have now christened it (H & S gone mad) - does have broadband. We believe in the appropriate working conditions for all.

(But that's only thanks to us suits, you know. The Corporation.)

[David Schofield]

And - unless you were there in person - who exactly provided that "memory" of the miners strikes? TV cameramen, journalists, broadcast editors and news producers - that's who. And all of them work in a creative world with unions and employment laws that, if violated, would be worth striking and picketing for. Take a step back instead of an ill-informed leap forward...

Sadly, I WAS there. It's a memory VERY close to home. No TV bias needed.

Next?

[Zorin Industries]

And - unless you were there in person - who exactly provided that "memory" of the miners strikes? TV cameramen, journalists, broadcast editors and news producers - that's who. And all of them work in a creative world with unions and employment laws that, if violated, would be worth striking and picketing for. Take a step back instead of an ill-informed leap forward...

Sadly, I WAS there. It's a memory VERY close to home. No TV bias needed.

Next?

"Next".... ??? This is not some tit-for-tat game of one-upmanship. This is a discussion about people's lives, futures and the financial workings of one of the world's biggest industries.

And if you were there at the time of the miners strikers you'll know just how important a principle is in the face of big business. At least the entertainment industry has a renewable future.

And who said anything about "TV bias"? Some people need to climb off a few 1980's bandwagons and stop reacting childishly to more informed opinions with dated "up the unions" vitriol and tit-for-tat arguing.

As someone who appears to champion the common worker, you incongruously convey the worst excesses of money-led Thatcherism - ie. laugh in the face of principled workers just because a small proportion of them earn more than you. I personally am not someone who judges a person's moral argument on how much their last pay packet was. What does it matter if Paul Haggis got X amount of money for whatever script? The point is he is prepared to join his fellow workers and creatives in standing up for something they believe in. I vaguely remember a few miners did that in Britain in the 1980's.....

Edited by Zorin Industries, 08 November 2007 - 02:24 PM.

[David Schofield]

And - unless you were there in person - who exactly provided that "memory" of the miners strikes? TV cameramen, journalists, broadcast editors and news producers - that's who. And all of them work in a creative world with unions and employment laws that, if violated, would be worth striking and picketing for. Take a step back instead of an ill-informed leap forward...

Sadly, I WAS there. It's a memory VERY close to home. No TV bias needed.

Next?

"Next?".... This is not some tit-for-tat game of one-upmanship. This is a discussion about people's lives, futures and the financial workings of one of the world's biggest industries.

And if you were there at the time of the miners strikers you'll know just how important a principle is in the face of big business. At least the entertainment industry has a renewable future.

Merely responding to your assumption that my ONLY knowledge of the Miners Strike was via TV. You should presume nothing. I would have hoped journalistic impartiality would have taught that.

People do have real life experiences. Not everying is supplied by members of the Fourth Estate or in the works of William Effing Shakespeare.

And you're right, the Entertainment Industry does have a renewable future, apparently, rather than mining. Very true. Possibly sad. But hey, they can get a suntan.