196 replies to this topic

[Mr. Blofeld]

I need them when my jetpack is in the shop.

I'm glad I always have Little Nellie on hand when I need her, then.

[SecretAgentFan]

I

[OmarB]

...many members can come to the picket line in their Bentleys.

Writers driving Bentleys?

Wow.

No worries man, I missed the day they were handing writers Bentleys too. That's why I'm driving Nikes and the NYC Subway.

[zencat]

Excellent blog for updates on everything that's happening with the strike.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/

[OmarB]

Zencat, you went out and picketed yet? I don't know how but two of my buds talked me into coming down there this afternoon. Guess I'll use it as a chance to talk to them and ask a few questions see what's up with them.

[DLibrasnow]

So he is getting paid $5 million for the Bond script. Yet he is joining a picket line over pay?

What does he want - $10 million?

[SecretAgentFan]

Is this really so difficult to understand?

Yes, Haggis is earning lots of money. But this strike is not meant to get Haggis earn even more.

It is meant to get the writers a decent share of the revenues that they deserve.

Right now they are being cheated out of their due profits from all the internet and DVD revenues.

And since the majority of writers do not earn 5 million per script this really makes a difference.

Hey, DLibra, I thought you were a journalist. Don

[00Twelve]

So he is getting paid $5 million for the Bond script. Yet he is joining a picket line over pay?

What does he want - $10 million?

Haggis isn't merely picketing for himself. He's picketing for all WGA writers, especially the ones who don't make $5 million on movies. He's "standing up for the little guy," so to speak.

[Zorin Industries]

Not every writer in Hollywood is getting paid obscene amounts of money, you know.

The whole point of solidarity is to stick together for the common good. Not to stick two fingers up at everyone else, just because you happen to be lucky enough to be doing well for yourself.

Probably not - but wouldn't it be nice if the well-paid actors and writers made sacrifices to enable them to be paid better? Problem solved, instantly. You know, individiual sacrifice as well as solidarity.

I mean, in an industry where the vast number of people ARE paid obscene amounts of cash, it seems rather hypocritical having a go at the usual favourite target of every conscience-provoked revolutionary, fat cat corporate greed.

You've obviously never been responsible for a piece of creative work that other people made money from...

$5 million!!!

Indeed.
Sod Bond - what sort of a ed up town is it that someone being paid $5,000,000 winges about corporate greed! Poor bastard.
As a suggestion, perhaps, say, Tom Cruise or Haggis himself can contribute to the poor starving writers.
Maybe George Clooney should turn his attention away from Darfur and back to more pressing problems closer to home.
Hollywood. What next, honest Al Gore or Michael Moore for President?

Ok, here's the thing. It's not up to you to decide about what they are being paid. Would you like someone sitting around bitching at you about how much you make at your job denegrating what you do? In whatever field you work it might seem an impossible number but considering the amount of revenue their INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY produces they are being shafted. Seriously, who else here works in an industry that produces not goods or services but intellectual property ... art? I do, I'm a journalist. It's not up to you to complain about what someone else is paid for their work, their creative work.

There is no show/movie without a script yet they are paid a mere pittance and their rights for new media such as internet downloads are not apart of their old contract. Meaning, the studio heads and everyone down gets a cut every time it's broadcast, simulcast, internet-cast yet the writers are still on a contract that does not account for that.

Hell, most writers (like myself) are near broke working several jobs as well as working, the Haggis' of the world are rear, most writers are the struggling artist yet the same work-a-day guy who they work next to will speak ill of those pansy writers and their huge paychecks seeing the exception not the rule, while one is right next to him plugging away at whatever job it is.

As a journalist I hear this crap a lot about "You don't deserve that much money, do what I do for a day." Fact is, most say they could do it but can't and the same goes for writing shows/movies, creative work doesn't just pop out of your head fully formed, not because it's not physical hard labor does not make it any less valid. Sweat on your back does not signify valid work, or is it a measure of how valuable your job is by how sweaty your get doing it.

But don't expect me to sympathise in the meantime.

Or watch anything on TV, the internet or at the cinema I presume... Who do you think actually writes and creates the films and titles sad fans think they own and have the right to spout such uninformed about....?

[David Schofield]

You've obviously never been responsible for a piece of creative work that other people made money from...

There is an awful lot of naiivey in this thread. For anything to be considered "creative" it has to, apparently, have been written down. To be - ahem - art

What a load of pretentious garbage!

I have "created" - things like jobs, employment for others, income for their families (though this has been due to their hard work).

And I have had other people make money from me. The British Government. I have paid an awful lot of income tax.

Some of you really should grow up. Student politics really doesn't wash.

And let me ask you the odd one out:

Soldiers.
Nurses.
Writers.

Which of those deserve the LEAST symapthy regarding strike action. And which is the one that is the better paid, on average?

[OmarB]

I'll always side with the writers/artists. The idea of the starving artist is not something you see in films or read about in books but actually the reality of the situation. Our world is so filled with art, music, literature that people forget that it all comes from somewhere. From the art on a supermarket bag to the TV you watch in the evening it's all work that people put hard work into.

Writing a season of a TV show is just that, a couple months of work, then you are out and you have to find another gig. There are people who appeared in films for mere seconds and still get royalty checks every couple of months and actually live off of it while the writer (who without which there would not have been the film) gets nothing. Twenty, thirty years down the line the actor is still being paid for work they did while the writer gets nothing.

I'm not here to change anyone's mind. If you think writers or artists are spoiled then so be it. But contrast it to the music business, the song "My Girl" is what's called an evergreen, it'll make money for the writer of the song forever, it's constantly on the radio, TV, movies, being covered. Yet in the same situation the writer gets paid for his script and it's screw off man. If the print industry treaded authors like Film and TV does Fleming would have written Casino Royal, seen what's up and never wrote another book.

It's hard for people outside of the creative industry to understand the whole situation. It's not working in an office or a store where the job will be there for as long as you perform. It's a situation where you are used then thrown out. That's why I love living in NY, I get to write, play music and live in a city dominated by the arts and people understand the struggle.

[Harmsway]

I thought this video was very effective in communicating exactly why the writers are striking:



Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Royal Dalton]

Forget it. Some people will never support a strike. Whatever the cause.

[SecretAgentFan]

Thank you. Maybe this will end this pointless and absurd discussion about writers earning too much anyway.

And getting back to the thread

[Dr. Noah]

The crackup with the picket lines so far is some writers are trying to send their assistants to stand in for them. No, I'm not making it up.

Hopefully this strike turns out better. I lost two jobs in '88 and pretty much had to start my career over. Can't wait to see what happens to my work this time. All for DVD and download royalties? The studio accountants spend all their time proving our films make nothing anyway, so how much will we actually see?

I suppose that's an issue for the next strike...

[OmarB]

The crackup with the picket lines so far is some writers are trying to send their assistants to stand in for them. No, I'm not making it up.

Hopefully this strike turns out better. I lost two jobs in '88 and pretty much had to start my career over. Can't wait to see what happens to my work this time. All for DVD and download royalties? The studio accountants spend all their time proving our films make nothing anyway, so how much will we actually see?

I suppose that's an issue for the next strike...

"I know it's number 1 at the box office world wide but seriously, there is no money! Maybe when it's out on DVD it'll pick up a bit."

[Zorin Industries]

You've obviously never been responsible for a piece of creative work that other people made money from...

There is an awful lot of naiivey in this thread. For anything to be considered "creative" it has to, apparently, have been written down. To be - ahem - art

What a load of pretentious garbage!

I have "created" - things like jobs, employment for others, income for their families (though this has been due to their hard work).

And I have had other people make money from me. The British Government. I have paid an awful lot of income tax.

Some of you really should grow up. Student politics really doesn't wash.

And let me ask you the odd one out:

Soldiers.
Nurses.
Writers.

Which of those deserve the LEAST symapthy regarding strike action. And which is the one that is the better paid, on average?

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WRITES THE JAMES BOND FILMS THAT THE LIKES OF YOU THINK THEY OWN JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A RARE POSTER AND A FEW RELATED BOOKS ON THEIR SHELVES?!! In this instance I don't give a toss about nurses and soldiers. From what I've gathered about the great U.S of A, there is no difference between soldiers, nurses and writers. They're all exploited by corporate wankers wanting to make the most money from the most people.

And why don't you "grow up" Schofield? Whoop-de-do Basil - you've created a few jobs. So what? Did you tell your staff that they only get paid four days out of six and that the other two days rely on commissions and bank interest to make a wage?

And - YES - of course being "creative" whether it's under your pathetic quote-unquote "ahem" bollocks is based on writing things down. How would you feel if you were told your last putrid, ill-informed thread on cBn would be split into four parts. You get paid for the first three sections, but the fourth paragraph's fee will be paid to the internet providers and advertisers and you will just have to settle for the glory that the first three parts were ever printed at all.

"I have "created" - things like jobs, employment for others, income for their families (though this has been due to their hard work)".....? So have I. Through my work as an artist. We all are to a degree, of course we are. But this is not about nurses or soldiers. This is about the entertainment industry. And some people need to realise that their misguided fandom would be defunct without it.

I get your points Schofield. But they are as misguided as the people's views you are criticising. When you have an agent, when you have royalties to think of, when you have international rights and second screening violations to ponder, then we'll all queue and watch your work of art. Right now, some people in America are standing up for what they believe in. That alone should not be criticised naively, but wholeheartedly supported.

I'll always side with the writers/artists. The idea of the starving artist is not something you see in films or read about in books but actually the reality of the situation. Our world is so filled with art, music, literature that people forget that it all comes from somewhere. From the art on a supermarket bag to the TV you watch in the evening it's all work that people put hard work into.

Writing a season of a TV show is just that, a couple months of work, then you are out and you have to find another gig. There are people who appeared in films for mere seconds and still get royalty checks every couple of months and actually live off of it while the writer (who without which there would not have been the film) gets nothing. Twenty, thirty years down the line the actor is still being paid for work they did while the writer gets nothing.

I'm not here to change anyone's mind. If you think writers or artists are spoiled then so be it. But contrast it to the music business, the song "My Girl" is what's called an evergreen, it'll make money for the writer of the song forever, it's constantly on the radio, TV, movies, being covered. Yet in the same situation the writer gets paid for his script and it's screw off man. If the print industry treaded authors like Film and TV does Fleming would have written Casino Royal, seen what's up and never wrote another book.

It's hard for people outside of the creative industry to understand the whole situation. It's not working in an office or a store where the job will be there for as long as you perform. It's a situation where you are used then thrown out. That's why I love living in NY, I get to write, play music and live in a city dominated by the arts and people understand the struggle.

A voice of reason on this thread and this website. At last...

[RazorBlade]

You've obviously never been responsible for a piece of creative work that other people made money from...

There is an awful lot of naiivey in this thread. For anything to be considered "creative" it has to, apparently, have been written down. To be - ahem - art

What a load of pretentious garbage!

I have "created" - things like jobs, employment for others, income for their families (though this has been due to their hard work).

And I have had other people make money from me. The British Government. I have paid an awful lot of income tax.

Some of you really should grow up. Student politics really doesn't wash.

And let me ask you the odd one out:

Soldiers.
Nurses.
Writers.

Which of those deserve the LEAST symapthy regarding strike action. And which is the one that is the better paid, on average?

I think there is a pretentionous load of garbage in this post. Art doesn't have to "written down". Writers aren't paid buckets of money, the nurses and soldiers are doing better trust me, I'm a writer and I've been a soldier so I know. Everyone deserves sympathy during strike action. It's high time all of us started standing up for our rights. I pay taxes too and my governement uses that money to take more and more of my rights away. And yes, someone is using my creative output right now to make a movie and was offended that I asked to be paid. I can't wait to join the WGA.

And let's wait for Bond 22. It'll be worth it.

[mister-white]

Since they don't have an absolute final script done, what's gonna happen? Are they gonna wait till it's all resolved, perhaps missing next November's release date? Or could they get someone who's not part of the WGA to do the final draft. I'm thinking Michael Wilson as a possibility. Am I the only one worried or have they already said what's gonna to happen with this.

[Dr. Noah]

Just be prepared. I've been through WGA strikes before, and they are the TRUE test of your liberalism. Just know when you strike you're making things better for the NEXT guy, 'cuz your job will often be gone by the time you get back. The networks, studios and even the WGA will go on no matter if it's you working on a project or a thousand other guys trying for your job while you're picketing. We're all independent contractors, really, so a union doesn't protect us much career-wise.

Everybody wants your job, DVD residuals or download royalties notwithstanding. Field work, car assembly, coal mining, not so much. Those guys are always welcomed back.

It's worth it in the long run for writers in general, but maybe not for the guys picketing. So they deserve a lot of respect.

[Skudor]

There's so much love in this thread that I can almost touch it. Almost.

[Dr. Noah]

There's so much love in this thread that I can almost touch it. Almost.

LOL

You should hear the love on the picket lines!

[blueman]

If the writers win the strike, will they start writing better?

IMHO, creativity is not something finite that can be legislated. Very different from, say, nursing or driving a truck. Having been on both sides of picket lines depending on the context, I'm all for unions fighting some fights (the traditional blue-collar jobs, for instance), but writing? With apologies to the writers on this board, unionizing a creative endeavor cements mediocrity. Turn on the TV for evidence. Should the studios share profits with the artists who create their product? Absolutely. Should the artists strike for it? Since they have a union, why not? Is writing hard work? Yes indeedy. But it all seems very odd to me, as a laborer and as a writer: should novelists have a union, so they get published and paid for everything they write? Painters, so only union members get their paintings hung in the best galleries?

I guess I shouldn't kid myself, the entertainment biz is a mostly uncreative industry, endlessly recycling what we the audience have shown we prefer (and novelists and painters do have their own eldritch machinations for systematizing production, oh yeah). We're hooked on distraction, and it apparently doesn't take much to suck us in. I don't expect to make a living at writing unless I can write at a certain level, ie better than the next guy. But I also realize that's not reality, hacks (and I'm one) live quite comfortably (uh, I'll get back to you on that, have to go to work now ).

I don't begrudge or blame the writers--the industry is what it is--just wish my first question would somehow come back a positive. I think some would argue, union pay allows them the stablity to hone their craft over time. Yet assessing the product (yep, that's what it is), seems the negative of systematized crapola far outweighs that. Don't have a solution, other than the biggie: REVOLUTION! Until then, go get them profits you wonderful hacks you, I'll be over here cheering you on...when I'm not at work, or plunking at the typewriter to amuse myself, or drunk and cutting off my left ear.

[Dr. Noah]

If the writers win the strike, will they start writing better?

IMHO, creativity is not something finite that can be legislated. Very different from, say, nursing or driving a truck. Having been on both sides of picket lines depending on the context, I'm all for unions fighting some fights (the traditional blue-collar jobs, for instance), but writing? With apologies to the writers on this board, unionizing a creative endeavor cements mediocrity. Turn on the TV for evidence. Should the studios share profits with the artists who create their product? Absolutely. Should the artists strike for it? Since they have a union, why not? Is writing hard work? Yes indeedy. But it all seems very odd to me, as a laborer and as a writer: should novelists have a union, so they get published and paid for everything they write? Painters, so only union members get their paintings hung in the best galleries?

I guess I shouldn't kid myself, the entertainment biz is a mostly uncreative industry, endlessly recycling what we the audience have shown we prefer (and novelists and painters do have their own eldritch machinations for systematizing production, oh yeah). We're hooked on distraction, and it apparently doesn't take much to suck us in. I don't expect to make a living at writing unless I can write at a certain level, ie better than the next guy. But I also realize that's not reality, hacks (and I'm one) live quite comfortably (uh, I'll get back to you on that, have to go to work now ).

I don't begrudge or blame the writers--the industry is what it is--just wish my first question would somehow come back a positive. I think some would argue, union pay allows them the stablity to hone their craft over time. Yet assessing the product (yep, that's what it is), seems the negative of systematized crapola far outweighs that. Don't have a solution, other than the biggie: REVOLUTION! Until then, go get them profits you wonderful hacks you, I'll be over here cheering you on...when I'm not at work, or plunking at the typewriter to amuse myself, or drunk and cutting off my left ear.

I don't think you're arguing about anything having to do with a labor strike. The mine workers don't strike to improve the coal.

[blueman]

Historically, mine workers have had little option but to work the mine, that's why a union was so important for them. Do writers have other and perhaps better paying options today? Like...working in a mine, perhaps? (viva la union!)

In most industries, workers work to pay rent. They may like the work they do, but it's a mercantile transaction for them first and foremost. Writers work (correct me if I'm wrong) because they love writing and want to get paid for doing what they love. Vastly different context IMO. And I caveated that: entertainmant is a biz, and writers create product. Just odd to me that something creative has been turned into something not so creative, and IMHO everyone helping to create that blah product getting put out there shares blame, producers, writers, actors...including us, the stupid schmucks who lap it up.

In the best of worlds, writing(or creating) in any medium is not labor the way digging a ditch is, at least not to be unionized. But I'm an idealist. I do support the strike, the producers are being buttheads. But I suspect 40 hours a week day labor pays better on average than being a WGA writer, and not entirely convinced a union should step in to equalize that. Ditch-digging is needed infrastructure, The Ellen Show is not.

[OmarB]

Since they don't have an absolute final script done, what's gonna happen? Are they gonna wait till it's all resolved, perhaps missing next November's release date? Or could they get someone who's not part of the WGA to do the final draft. I'm thinking Michael Wilson as a possibility. Am I the only one worried or have they already said what's gonna to happen with this.

You know, I don't know. I could tell you a story that is kinda similar.

Remember that movie Robocop 2? Sucked didn't it? Well before the script sucked Frank Miller wrote it (you know, 300, Sin City, greatest comic book writer ever) and his version is amazing (available in print as Frank Miller's Robocop). Anyways, Frank's script was great but the studio wanted this and they wanted that and much is the case with most movies and TV that sucks it's not the writer's fault but what the Producers wants being shoved in there. In any case they wanted so many changes that Frank left the project out of frustration. His final version of the script was given to a non union guy and who did it for a song and turned in pretty much Frank's story with all the compromises. The movie is released it did what it did and Frank didn't write a movie till 300's adaptation from his comic because he would not compromised.

What I think? They dare not have a non union guy take a pass at it because the man's a talent and a name. It's not the final version though and as such they can't film it no matter how tiny the final touches are this is just not the version they can shoot if he says so. It might be delayed but that's just my opinion for now.

[Dr. Noah]

Historically, mine workers have had little option but to work the mine, that's why a union was so important for them. Do writers have other and perhaps better paying options today? Like...working in a mine, perhaps? (viva la union!)

In most industries, workers work to pay rent. They may like the work they do, but it's a mercantile transaction for them first and foremost. Writers work (correct me if I'm wrong) because they love writing and want to get paid for doing what they love. Vastly different context IMO. And I caveated that: entertainmant is a biz, and writers create product. Just odd to me that something creative has been turned into something not so creative, and IMHO everyone helping to create that blah product getting put out there shares blame, producers, writers, actors...including us, the stupid schmucks who lap it up.

In the best of worlds, writing(or creating) in any medium is not labor the way digging a ditch is, at least not to be unionized. But I'm an idealist. I do support the strike, the producers are being buttheads. But I suspect 40 hours a week day labor pays better on average than being a WGA writer, and not entirely convinced a union should step in to equalize that. Ditch-digging is needed infrastructure, The Ellen Show is not.

Wait, so if you don't like Fords, carmakers shouldn't strike?

Tell you what, next time you're denied money for something creative because you should still want to do it for nothing, tell me your feelings.

[blueman]

I can't even get somebody (in a position to buy) to read my crapola.

Because I "create" in no way means I should be paid for time spent/end product from that "creating." It's just not something tangible like a brick wall that didn't exist before, there's value judgement involved (far beyond what goes into assessing a good brick wall IMHO, nothing against my fellow grunt workers, God love 'em). Ideally, the best writers get paid. You think that's what happening in the entertainment industry? Different strokes, then.

I may be idealized out of reality, but if you think a unionized entertainment industry promotes quality product...wow. But like I said, I've got nothing against the writers who are creating product getting their fair share of the profits.

My concern is for better creative output, which is against any (union or non-union) status quo (by definition, I believe). The current system does help a lot of writers get better through repetition, but golly what a lot of "practice works" to sift through. At least I have the good grace to keep mine under the sofa.

I think we're in effect taking the same stance: I may be against unionizing a creative field in principle, but in the current set-up I think the writers (and actors, and directors...which fights are coming) should get fair compensation for their efforts.

Edited by blueman, 07 November 2007 - 11:02 PM.

[Dr. Noah]

I can't even get somebody (in a position to buy) to read my crapola.

Because I "create" in no way means I should be paid for time spent/end product from that "creating." It's just not something tangible like a brick wall that didn't exist before, there's value judgement involved (far beyond what goes into assessing a good brick wall IMHO, nothing against my fellow grunt workers, God love 'em). Ideally, the best writers get paid. You think that's what happening in the entertainment industry? Different strokes, then.

I may be idealized out of reality, but if you think a unionized entertainment industry promotes quality product...wow. But like I said, I've got nothing against the writers who are creating product getting their fair share of the profits.

My concern is for better creative output, which is against any (union or non-union) status quo (by definition, I believe).

You aren't making any sense. I've been working and learning for 30 years, so yeah, I think my time working IS more valuable. And yeah, it IS nice that there is a union to get me health insurance.

What do teachers create? Educated students, I guess, but isn't that a value judgment, too? Should they not be paid? Should they dissolve their union?

[Dr. Noah]

I'll tell you a good non-union story.

I sold my first screenplay right out of college. We weren't in the union yet, so there were no minimums as to what they could pay us. No protections. We were just thrilled to get something made, and signed a flat deal. Two years later that movie came out in theaters and was #1 in the US. It was the top bill at my local movie house... and I passed it every day on my way to work at a video store, where I made something near minimum wage. Before I got another gig I was renting my own movie to people at Sam Goody.

The studio was making millions off my work, and I was cleaning kiddie vomit off the carpets for six bucks an hour in the children's video section.

Honest truth.