268 replies to this topic

[Loomis]

As I've pointed out before, there are a couple of passages where Fleming starts talking about how when Bond was in the RNVR (Navy) he was off behind enemy lines shooting a bazooka in the middle of the Ardennes. Now, admittingly, I'm not too knowledgeable of the British military etc, but a guy in the RNVR in the middle of the Ardennes sounds like rubbish to me. The point here is that one could probably contend that Bond was in some sort of special forces (given Fleming -- SOE) from day 1. If you update that for today, it probably would be the SAS. Doesn't that make more sense? I don't really see a guy making a jump from the RNVR to the 00 Section, but joining as RNVR, becoming SOE, and then a 00. That's logical. To me anyway.

After becoming a 00 he works with the SAS and the SBS per Gardner, which I don't think would be out of the ordinary.

OO7 was never in the SAS.

As Zencat has pointed out. It could very well simply be a scipt point that describes Bond as being an SAS type.

Well, we just don't know (obviously). But, still, I get the feeling that Broccoli and Wilson really want to create "their" James Bond, so to speak. I seem to remember someone pointing out here on CBn a while back how curious it was that there was so much new "backstory" for 007 in GOLDENEYE (friendship with Trevelyan, etc.). And GOLDENEYE increasingly seems like a dry run for the full-on fasten-your-seatbelts-this-is-the-big-one reboot that is CASINO ROYALE.

I recall a Purvis and Wade interview - forget where I read it, but I think it dates back at least to the time of DIE ANOTHER DAY - in which they pointed out that the James Bond of today could not possibly be the Bond of Fleming or the early films, not for reasons of suspending disbelief at the guy's inability/refusal to age, but because the Bond of the Brosnan films was clearly too young to have been brutalised by the Second World War.

If I remember correctly, P&W said that, because of this, they had created their own backstory for ModernBond, to explain how someone of his generation could have turned out that way. Y'know, brutalised and stuff. Indeed, I think they even commented that "their" Bond would have had to have joined the modern services, off his own bat, so to speak, thereby becoming a warrior in "peacetime" (my memory may be playing false, though).

Of course, this is something P&W did purely to aid them in their writing, and we haven't seen it onscreen in the finished product.

Yet.

[Mercator]

I have read that same interview too. You remember it well.

[K1Bond007]

As I've pointed out before, there are a couple of passages where Fleming starts talking about how when Bond was in the RNVR (Navy) he was off behind enemy lines shooting a bazooka in the middle of the Ardennes. Now, admittingly, I'm not too knowledgeable of the British military etc, but a guy in the RNVR in the middle of the Ardennes sounds like rubbish to me. The point here is that one could probably contend that Bond was in some sort of special forces (given Fleming -- SOE) from day 1. If you update that for today, it probably would be the SAS. Doesn't that make more sense? I don't really see a guy making a jump from the RNVR to the 00 Section, but joining as RNVR, becoming SOE, and then a 00. That's logical. To me anyway.

After becoming a 00 he works with the SAS and the SBS per Gardner, which I don't think would be out of the ordinary.

OO7 was never in the SAS.

As Zencat has pointed out. It could very well simply be a scipt point that describes Bond as being an SAS type.

The Commando unit Fleming was refurring to was his own 30 AU group attached to the Admirality.

You misunderstood me. I never said Bond was in the SAS. I was attempting to rationalize the possibility that the modern James Bond could have been previously SAS prior to being a 00. IMHO, one does not jump out of the wavy navy into a 00 Section, thus I tried to link Bond by saying he was RNVR, joined SOE (or perhaps 30AU, it doesn't matter - no one knows) and then the 00 Section. Today it would be something similar like RNR, SAS, 00. That was the comparison.

P&W are right (as Loomis points out) that the modern Bond can't possibly be Fleming's Bond.

But this is all moot.

[Mercator]

You misunderstood me. I never said Bond was in the SAS. I was attempting to rationalize the possibility that the modern James Bond could have been previously SAS prior to being a 00. IMHO, one does not jump out of the wavy navy into a 00 Section, thus I tried to link Bond by saying he was RNVR, joined SOE (or perhaps 30AU, it doesn't matter - no one knows) and then the 00 Section. Today it would be something similar like RNR, SAS, 00. That was the comparison.

P&W are right (as Loomis points out) that the modern Bond can't possibly be Fleming's Bond.

But this is all moot.

"This 007, apparently not long out of the SAS..."

Well, this is what they wrote. The excerpt suggests Bond was in the SAS. What you now say above contradicts what the report says.

Edited by Mercator, 22 January 2006 - 12:32 AM.

[Harmsway]

You misunderstood me. I never said Bond was in the SAS. I was attempting to rationalize the possibility that the modern James Bond could have been previously SAS prior to being a 00. IMHO, one does not jump out of the wavy navy into a 00 Section, thus I tried to link Bond by saying he was RNVR, joined SOE (or perhaps 30AU, it doesn't matter - no one knows) and then the 00 Section. Today it would be something similar like RNR, SAS, 00. That was the comparison.

P&W are right (as Loomis points out) that the modern Bond can't possibly be Fleming's Bond.

But this is all moot.

"This 007, apparently not long out of the SAS..."

Well, this is what they wrote. The excerpt suggests Bond was in the SAS. What you now say above contradicts what the report says.

No it doesn't. I think you totally misunderstood anything he just said. He's just saying that an SAS background, as the film suggests, is about the modern-day equivalent of the background Fleming gave Bond.

[K1Bond007]

....

anyhoo...

I'm very optimistic about the film. Now more than ever.

[Agent Spriggan Ominae]

You misunderstood me. I never said Bond was in the SAS. I was attempting to rationalize the possibility that the modern James Bond could have been previously SAS prior to being a 00. IMHO, one does not jump out of the wavy navy into a 00 Section, thus I tried to link Bond by saying he was RNVR, joined SOE (or perhaps 30AU, it doesn't matter - no one knows) and then the 00 Section. Today it would be something similar like RNR, SAS, 00. That was the comparison.

P&W are right (as Loomis points out) that the modern Bond can't possibly be Fleming's Bond.

But this is all moot.

"This 007, apparently not long out of the SAS..."

Well, this is what they wrote. The excerpt suggests Bond was in the SAS. What you now say above contradicts what the report says.

Well from the looks of things Bond may not be from the Royal Navy anymore. That's not really a bad thing and if true it really confirms the whole reboot idea. Like P&W said, the updates of the story are to add a modern context to things. In this updated version it wouldn't be too farfecthed if Bond was plucked from the SAS rather than the RNVR. After all the SAS is the best of the best. Who dares wins.

Edited by Agent_Spriggan_Ominae, 22 January 2006 - 02:21 AM.

[1q2w3e4r]

I must say I find all this quite humerous

Bond isn't Fleming's Bond. It can't be the same guy you say?

So the same goes for Dalton's Bond as well no doubt. Hell even Old Roger can't be the guy on the page. Over the statutory age of 45.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves and throw the baby out with the bath water.

If the guy in CR isn't the same guy in Dr No. It's not a Bond film, or a Bond series.

They should call it something else. If Bond hasn't been a Commander in the Navy, served in the commando's, been to Eton, Fettes and been an orphan. It's not James Bond. End of story.

You can't pick and choose what you want and rewrite the character's history entirely. It defaults 40+ years of cinematic history. It's fine to say it's a redux. But even then, you have to sort of continuation on what you have done before.

So we have.

Bond is a OO
Is we assume not long into the service
Served in the RN
Was a commando in RN

Seems as though the filmmakers are following Fleming's blueprint for OO7 very well indeed to me and are taking great pains to include those items and the backstory Fleming created.

[Gobi-1]

Look at how many times the origins of Batman, Superman or any other comic book characters have been explored. Too numerous to count. Although they may differ in minor or major ways they are still the same characters.

Let's be honest each actor has giving his interpretations of how to perform Bond. Now we have the film makers offering a different interpretations of the character himself.

As long as the classical elements remain it's still going to be James Bond.

[Andrew]

I don't really see what the problem here is. He can be from the Royal Navy AND SAS. It's supposedly only one line of dialogue anyway. Not a big deal at all.

[Roger Moore's Bad Facelift]

Not to be a downer, but to me this sounds like yet another Bond film (in a recent trend of Bond films) that takes itself entiriely too seriously.
Not too excited for this at all, really.
It sounds alot like the myth-extirpating "Batman Begins" or as I call it, "Answers to Questions Nobody Asked".
Much in how I didn't particularly care to find out how Batman attained his first Batmobile or amassed his arsenal of weaponry, I really have no interest in seeing how Bond happened across his penchant for dry martinis or first had his heart broken either.

[Seannery]

Not to be a downer, but to me this sounds like yet another Bond film (in a recent trend of Bond films) that takes itself entiriely too seriously.
Not too excited for this at all, really.
It sounds alot like the myth-extirpating "Batman Begins" or as I call it, "Answers to Questions Nobody Asked".
Much in how I didn't particularly care to find out how Batman attained his first Batmobile or amassed his arsenal of weaponry, I really have no interest in seeing how Bond happened across his penchant for dry martinis or first had his heart broken either.

Firstly good work Stax.


And I do agree with you RMBF(and some of what Loomis brought up also) that this film seems to be going into the uninteresting and unnecessary how Bond became Bond territory. And risks being too serious and self-important. Please spare us the pretense.



BUT then again it may work out well--i'll keep an open mind until I see the film. If it doesn't work THEN I will bring out the long knives.

[booyeah_]

I must say I find all this quite humerous

Bond isn't Fleming's Bond.  It can't be the same guy you say?

So the same goes for Dalton's Bond as well no doubt.  Hell even Old Roger can't be the guy on the page.  Over the statutory age of 45.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves and throw the baby out with the bath water.

If the guy in CR isn't the same guy in Dr No.  It's not a Bond film, or a Bond series.

They should call it something else.  If Bond hasn't been a Commander in the Navy, served in the commando's, been to Eton, Fettes and been an orphan.  It's not James Bond.  End of story.

You can't pick and choose what you want and rewrite the character's history entirely.  It defaults 40+ years of cinematic history.  It's fine to say it's a redux.  But even then, you have to sort of continuation on what you have done before.

So we have.

Bond is a OO
Is we assume not long into the service
Served in the RN
Was a commando in RN

Seems as though the filmmakers are following Fleming's blueprint for OO7 very well indeed to me and are taking great pains to include those items and the backstory Fleming created.

agreed, him being a former member of the SAS is stupid and would no longer make him a commander because Britain's SAS is a part of their Army, not Navy. The only way it'd make sense is if it involved maybe Bond doing some training excercise with SAS members like TLD.

[K1Bond007]

Well from the looks of things Bond may not be from the Royal Navy anymore. That's not really a bad thing and if true it really confirms the whole reboot idea. Like P&W said, the updates of the story are to add a modern context to things. In this updated version it wouldn't be too farfecthed if Bond was plucked from the SAS rather than the RNVR. After all the SAS is the best of the best. Who dares wins.

As I pointed it, it's doubtful Bond was 'plucked' straight from the RNVR. You don't just join the (regular) SAS either. You have to have been a member of the Armed Forces for a couple years.

I don't see this as that big of a deal. I'm not complaining or anything. I don't really care so long as Bond still holds the rank Commander at some point (this website should agree with that - har har).

[booyeah_]

Well from the looks of things Bond may not be from the Royal Navy anymore. That's not really a bad thing and if true it really confirms the whole reboot idea. Like P&W said, the updates of the story are to add a modern context to things. In this updated version it wouldn't be too farfecthed if Bond was plucked from the SAS rather than the RNVR. After all the SAS is the best of the best. Who dares wins.

As I pointed it, it's doubtful Bond was 'plucked' straight from the RNVR. You don't just join the (regular) SAS either. You have to have been a member of the Armed Forces for a couple years.

I don't see this as that big of a deal. I'm not complaining or anything. I don't really care so long as Bond still holds the rank Commander at some point (this website should agree with that - har har).

Let's say Bond was a commander in the Navy who laterally transfered to the SAS. His rank would then change. regardless, I dont care to see Bond before he's a 00-agent. I want to see him as one. JMO.

[Harmsway]

I think the SAS thing is great. If you're going to give the character a modern origin and update him for a modern setting, it's a brilliant revisioning of his backstory (IMO, of course).

Works well for my tastes.

[triviachamp]

Well none of the actors who have played Bond are old enough to have been commandoes in WWII. Well except Roger maybe but I doubt that the Brits were using 17-year olds in their commando units in 1945. Have they ever actually mentioned that Bond served in a commando unit before joing MI6? I don't think so. Brosnan was the first Bond to mention that he was an orphan. I'm not too sure if any Bond film has mentioned Bond's career at Eton and Fettes. Or that any film has mentioned that he served in the RNVR. They mentioned he was in the Navy, but not RNVR I believe. However Roger Moore's Bond served on the Ark Royal, an aircraft carrier. When did Fleming's Bond actually serve at Sea? Boo Hiss!

Making Bond SAS makes sense. No one ever said that he won't be a commander in the Royal Navy. Oh and the RNVR no longer exists. It is the RNR now. Neither does Naval Intelligence. What sort of commando action would Bond do in the RNR anyway?

How dare they suggest that Craig's Bond is not a WWII commando and that he doesn't work for groups that don't exist anymore!

Oh and SBS is not Navy, it is part of the Royal Marines.

Edited by triviachamp, 22 January 2006 - 07:41 AM.

[Jim]

agreed, him being a former member of the SAS is stupid and would no longer make him a commander because Britain's SAS is a part of their Army, not Navy. The only way it'd make sense is if it involved maybe Bond doing some training excercise with SAS members like TLD.

Isn't the SAS cross-military (given that it stands for Special Air Service*)?

And agreed with those above who suggest that what Ian Fleming suggests about Bond's military service is hardly consistent with being a ) in the navy and b ) reserve.

*unless it does really mean Super Army Soldiers

[triviachamp]

Isn't the SAS cross-military (given that it stands for Special Air Service*)?

From Wikipedia: [Emphasis Mine]

SAS Selection and Training is the most demanding military training course in the British Army: it reportedly only has a pass rate of 2-10%. It is a test of strength, endurance, and resolve over the Brecon Beacons and Elan Valley in Wales, and in the jungle of Brunei. The Namib Desert is also used as a desert training ground. 'Selection' takes around 6 months to complete.

Selection is held twice a year regardless of conditions. A candidate must be male and have been a regular member of the Armed Forces for at least three years or a member of 21 SAS or 23 SAS (which can be joined directly from civilian life) for at least 18 months. All soldiers who apply must have at least 39 months of military service remaining.

So Bond going from the Navy to SAS then to MI6 is not impossible. Don't know what they will do about his rank though. Not being a Commander would cause fanboy outrage but I don't know are than any Special forces connected to Navy itself?

[Stax]

If one segment of Bond fans don't want a serious or important Bond film but they also don't want an over-the-top cartoon like DAD either then what the heck do they want? Just name the past Bond film you think most epitomizes what a Bond film should be.

[K1Bond007]

Let's say Bond was a commander in the Navy who laterally transfered to the SAS. His rank would then change. regardless, I dont care to see Bond before he's a 00-agent. I want to see him as one. JMO.

Not really. Bond is able to maintain his "Commander" rank in the 00 section. So regardless, he could be promoted or whatever to that rank later. So the argument is irrelevant in the long run.

[triviachamp]

If one segment of Bond fans don't want a serious or important Bond film but they also don't want an over-the-top cartoon like DAD either then what the heck do they want? Just name the past Bond film you think most epitomizes what a Bond film should be.

How can we be fanboys without whining about everything?

[Stax]

"How can we be fanboys without whining about everything?"

Touche.

[SteveKingCool]

O, I have to make a point to this discussion.

Bond was born in a rich family and then his parents died. He became an orphan. He had lots of money then but no family. Then WWII happened and many joined army and navy to fight the Nazis. He adopted the government and country as his family. Many rich fought the war like James Stewart for example. I don't believe James Bond would have had a career in the Navy if the war didn't happen.

So my question is in this new version of James Bond he is still an orphan but is he still from a rich family and is it going to be said why he joined the SAS or Navy? I am not sure if it would make sense in a modern context because the only rich who join the Royal military branches today are people like Prince Andrew etc who go Sandhurst. The original Bond would never become SAS because those guys are from the lower working classes. He would only go there for training I would hope. So what is the modern new rebooted Bond's reason for a military career if there has been no great war or threat to Britain since WWII that would make a rich person want to fight?

[SteveKingCool]

Also from the texts I have now read of the book Bond is a wise gambler. Does he beg for money in the book after losing like he does in the script? Do wise gamblers do that? Do wise agents do that with government money?

[1q2w3e4r]

Well none of the actors who have played Bond are old enough to have been commandoes in WWII. Well except Roger maybe but I doubt that the Brits were using 17-year olds in their commando units in 1945. Have they ever actually mentioned that Bond served in a commando unit before joing MI6? I don't think so. Brosnan was the first Bond to mention that he was an orphan. I'm not too sure if any Bond film has mentioned Bond's career at Eton and Fettes. Or that any film has mentioned that he served in the RNVR. They mentioned he was in the Navy, but not RNVR I believe. However Roger Moore's Bond served on the Ark Royal, an aircraft carrier. When did Fleming's Bond actually serve at Sea? Boo Hiss!      

Making Bond SAS makes sense. No one ever said that he won't be a commander in the Royal Navy. Oh and the RNVR no longer exists. It is the RNR now. Neither does Naval Intelligence. What sort of commando action would Bond do in the RNR anyway?

How dare they suggest that Craig's Bond is not a WWII commando and that he doesn't work for groups that don't exist anymore!

Oh and SBS is not Navy, it is part of the Royal Marines.

Fleming's Bond never served at Sea. He saw action as a Commando.

I fail to see how the fact that he quite obviously isn't a WWII veteran in this film poses problems to Bond's basic background.

- He's an orphan
- Went to Eton and Fette's
- Entered the Navy
- Joined the Commando's
- Left to work for MI6/SIS

That's never been disputed and I don't believe the producers are going to do that now. Connery and Brosnan have been seen in RN gear, Moore is refurred to as Commander. The Royal Navy background is an essential part of Bond's character and back story. Even if they don't make major points of it throughout the series.

So Bond going from the Navy to SAS then to MI6 is not impossible. Don't know what they will do about his rank though. Not being a Commander would cause fanboy outrage but I don't know are than any Special forces connected to Navy itself?

Yeah it's called the Royale Marines, which have a Commando Unit..

[SteveKingCool]

Fleming's Bond never served at Sea.  He saw action as a Commando. 

I believe this is wrong as I have read many times here from members quotes form the books that say Bond was in the Pacific Ocean, Hong Kong, Indian Ocean during the last years of the war although he could also be territorial in Europe after 1941.

[SteveKingCool]

Fleming chose Navy because as a wealthy man Bond could become a Commander quickly by being awarded the St. George's cross. Rich or influential people in Britain get that often very quickly.

[1q2w3e4r]

Fleming's Bond never served at Sea.  He saw action as a Commando. 

I believe this is wrong as I have read many times here from members quotes form the books that say Bond was in the Pacific Ocean, Hong Kong, Indian Ocean during the last years of the war although he could also be territorial in Europe after 1941.

Not in any book Ian Fleming wrote that I remember. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. You may very well be right it's in John Pearson's "Biography" of OO7. But I only take what Ian Fleming put on the page himself as offical cannon regarding OO7's background.

There is a passing reference in one of Fleming's novels to Bond being in the Ardennes

[SteveKingCool]

[quote name='1q2w3e4r' date='22 January 2006 - 11:08'][quote name='SteveKingCool' date='22 January 2006 - 10:58'][quote name='1q2w3e4r' date='22 January 2006 - 10:39']
Fleming's Bond never served at Sea.

Edited by SteveKingCool, 22 January 2006 - 11:13 AM.