2081 replies to this topic

[Harmsway]

I don't know if I agree. I think that TDK could have been the best . . . if it were not for its last half hour. Because of that, I feel that INDY 4 ended up being better.

Even if THE DARK KNIGHT's last half hour was weak (and as I've said before, I don't think it is), I don't see how that makes INDY IV superior. INDY 4 was weak the whole way through. Not a single moment of real quality film craft, despite having some watchability.

[Mister E]

INDY 4 was weak the whole way through. Not a single moment of real quality film craft, despite having some watchability.

Now I am going to have to disagree with that. I thought it was good the entire time. I like the fact that alot of time was taken to give the film's plot depth and I found it more enjoyable then the last two films.

Edited by Mister E, 22 July 2008 - 03:04 PM.

[DR76]

I don't know. I'm not sure he has it in him. I don't think Burton is able to recognize what a really coherent story is. I think SWEENEY TODD is really something of a happy accident.

Oh, I think that Tim Burton knows a good story is. I'm not a fan of his, but I do believe that he is a good director.

I guess that I'm alone in saying that I enjoyed Indy 4 more. I just saw TDK this afternoon, I thought overall it was a better and more well made movie than Indy 4

I don't know if I agree. I think that TDK could have been the best . . . if it were not for its last half hour. Because of that, I feel that INDY 4 ended up being better.

The last half hour was terrific. Alot better then Indy 4's conclusion.

I almost felt disgusted by TDK's finale. I thought it was so stupid.

Edited by DR76, 22 July 2008 - 03:16 PM.

[Mister E]

I don't know. I'm not sure he has it in him. I don't think Burton is able to recognize what a really coherent story is. I think SWEENEY TODD is really something of a happy accident.

Oh, I think that Tim Burton knows a good story is. I'm not a fan of his, but I do believe that he is a good director.

I guess that I'm alone in saying that I enjoyed Indy 4 more. I just saw TDK this afternoon, I thought overall it was a better and more well made movie than Indy 4

I don't know if I agree. I think that TDK could have been the best . . . if it were not for its last half hour. Because of that, I feel that INDY 4 ended up being better.

The last half hour was terrific. Alot better then Indy 4's conclusion.

I almost felt disgusted by TDK's finale. I thought it was so stupid.

What disgust ? It was un-predictable and original, alot of un-tied loose ends.

[jaguar007]

Anyone else think that

Spoiler

the bit at the end where Two-Face forces Gordon to reassure his son that everything will be all right at gunpoint parallels the bit in Batman Begins where a dying Thomas Wayne reassures his son that everything will be alright?

Good point.

TDK does crush Indy...no contest.

None whatsoever.

Indeed.

I third that.

I guess that I'm alone in saying that I enjoyed Indy 4 more. I just saw TDK this afternoon, I thought overall it was a better and more well made movie than Indy 4, but I left the theater in a somber mood. I enjoyed Indy more.

You're not alone, your post reflects exactly my thoughts. No doubt, each component of TDK had more care injected into it, but when I own both Indy and TDK on DVD I know which one is going to get more use.

Exactly. Like I said, TDK is a superior film to Indy 4, but I saw Indy 4 twice in the theater and I would rather sit through Indy 4 a third time than TDK a second time (in theater). I left the theater after seeing TDK in a rather down mood, but I guess that just reinforces the strenth of the movie.

I did enjoy the nods to Thunderball and FRWL in TDK, but I wish the movie were 1/2 hour shorter and they kept

Spoiler

the two face part of the movie for the third film. I felt Eckhard could have pulled off a good main villian and they reduced Two Face to just doing a couple crimes. I wanted to see more of Two Face.

All in all, I think I liked BB better than TDK.

[Harmsway]

I did enjoy the nods to Thunderball and FRWL in TDK, but I wish the movie were 1/2 hour shorter and they kept

Spoiler

the two face part of the movie for the third film. I felt Eckhard could have pulled off a good main villian and they reduced Two Face to just doing a couple crimes. I wanted to see more of Two Face.

But Two-Face isn't a villain. He's a vigilante. He couldn't support his own film as a central baddie.

[EyesOnly]

I'll tell you one thing, if you come to these forums suggesting this movie is the greatest thing since sliced bread, you better be able to handle the heat of scrutiny.


No worries, I can. (Let's not forget this is in the general discussion forum---free reign, no?) Look, is TDK the greatest film since sliced bread? No, it shouldn't be number one on IMDB's top 250...it's a flawed list anyway. First and for most i'm a Bond fan...I love it. But, I DO feel that TDK did something pretty damn special. No one should take offense to such comments about the Film, it's all in good fun. So what if everyone disagrees..who cares, let's have fun with it, eh?

[DR76]

I don't know. I'm not sure he has it in him. I don't think Burton is able to recognize what a really coherent story is. I think SWEENEY TODD is really something of a happy accident.

Oh, I think that Tim Burton knows a good story is. I'm not a fan of his, but I do believe that he is a good director.

I guess that I'm alone in saying that I enjoyed Indy 4 more. I just saw TDK this afternoon, I thought overall it was a better and more well made movie than Indy 4

I don't know if I agree. I think that TDK could have been the best . . . if it were not for its last half hour. Because of that, I feel that INDY 4 ended up being better.

The last half hour was terrific. Alot better then Indy 4's conclusion.

I almost felt disgusted by TDK's finale. I thought it was so stupid.

What disgust ? It was un-predictable and original, alot of un-tied loose ends.

I felt disgust and a little contemptuous, as well. I found the morality presented in the last half hour ridiculous, and illusional beyond belief. I also didn't care for Cillian Murphy's role in this film and Maggie Gyllenhaal's Rachel had been turned into an object. Other than that I liked the film a lot.

[killkenny kid]

The Kids’ Dark Knight Trailer

lol, now that put a smile on my face.

[Harmsway]

I found the morality presented in the last half hour ridiculous, and illusional beyond belief.

How so?

I also didn't care for Cillian Murphy's role in this film

You mean all 1 minute of it?

and Maggie Gyllenhaal's Rachel had been turned into an object.

We've had this discussion before, but I sincerely disagree. Rachel was an object in BEGINS. In THE DARK KNIGHT, she's a character.

[Mister E]

I felt disgust and a little contemptuous, as well. I found the morality presented in the last half hour ridiculous, and illusional beyond belief.

What is so ridiculous about it ? It was in a sense Joker's biggest defeat and alot less predictable. He wasn't right about all people's motivations.

I also didn't care for Cillian Murphy's role in this film

What did you expect him to do ? Really, it was more of a cameo.

and Maggie Gyllenhaal's Rachel had been turned into an object.

How ? Like I said about Holmes Rachel, she was little more then just the love interest for Bruce. Glyllenhaal seems torn between Bruce and Dent while still trying to support Bruce. She acted alot more mature then just the "girl who has morals" in BATMAN BEGINS.

[HildebrandRarity]

I found the morality presented in the last half hour ridiculous, and illusional beyond belief.

How so?

You could see this coming a mile away.

I mentioned that I want to give it another viewing and I want to give our friends in England a chance to watch the movie before chiming in on this point.

All I can say is that if the morality-oriented plot point was played out in a similar fashion in a James Bond film, we here would be rolling our eyes and groaning. We'd be dissapointed to no end...and Harmsway would be ting all over that James Bond movie.

[Jim]

We've had this discussion before, but I sincerely disagree. Rachel was an object in BEGINS. In THE DARK KNIGHT, she's a character.

I admit I haven't seen it and may be wrong, completely and utterly wrong, but isn't the female lead in a Batman film really only there to give the thing a light dusting of heterosexuality?

[HildebrandRarity]

...isn't the female lead in a Batman film really only there to give the thing a light dusting of heterosexuality?

A little bit of misdirection for the kinked legions who think Bruce just might be batting for the other team given his black leather and rubber fetish, perhaps?

[Jim]

...isn't the female lead in a Batman film really only there to give the thing a light dusting of heterosexuality?

A little bit of misdirection for the kinked legions who think Bruce just might be batting for the other team given his black leather and rubber fetish, perhaps?

I guess so; and no more misdirection than calling himself a bat man and not being a rabies carrier or being extremely liberal with his droppings. Which, admittedly, I'd paid gladly to sit through a film of two-and-a-half-years (or however long it is).

The boys want to go at the weekend so I suppose I will have to go with them. It does sound quite good but I'm not sure I will stay awake - am getting old and it is probably going to be noisy.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

I did enjoy the nods to Thunderball and FRWL in TDK, but I wish the movie were 1/2 hour shorter and they kept

Spoiler

the two face part of the movie for the third film. I felt Eckhard could have pulled off a good main villian and they reduced Two Face to just doing a couple crimes. I wanted to see more of Two Face.

But Two-Face isn't a villain. He's a vigilante. He couldn't support his own film as a central baddie.

Why not? It would be a refreshing change. Not an outright evil villain- a distorted sense of justice. Vigilante against vigilante. It could make Batman ask all kinds of questions about himself.. and have a Batman movie actually be about Batman.

[HildebrandRarity]

...isn't the female lead in a Batman film really only there to give the thing a light dusting of heterosexuality?

A little bit of misdirection for the kinked legions who think Bruce just might be batting for the other team given his black leather and rubber fetish, perhaps?

I guess so; and no more misdirection than calling himself a bat man and not being a rabies carrier or being extremely liberal with his droppings. Which, admittedly, I'd paid gladly to sit through a film of two-and-a-half-years...

Ah! It puts that line from The Joker to the Bat Man - the one where he utters "you complete me" - in an entirely new light, my friend.

[Judo chop]

THE DARK KNIGHT :*:

I’m afraid I have fallen victim to the outrageous hype surrounding the film. I came away a little tired, a little under-whelmed and, most surprisingly, a little longing for the world of BATMAN BEGINS.

There is no doubt about a couple of things:

1) The subject matter of The Dark Knight is infinitely more mature and complicated than that of Begins.
2) Heath Ledger now owns the Joker (and probably the entire film).

For those reasons alone the film is worth its weight in ticket price. However, what I expected to see was a vast improvement over BEGINS in terms of directorial choices, cohesion and maturity, and I what I saw were the same mistakes that (slightly) hinder the previous film. Action sequences I thought were again hard to follow, and may have been even more questionable from a ‘grounded-in-reality’ standpoint. I’m really very sorry to say that the effects used for 2-Face were laughable and completely out of the proper context for the rest of the film.

For the most part dialogue is quite lean and solid. Certain moments, like the dinner sequence with Dent/Wayne and gals, crackle with wit further supported by very, very strong performances. Everything the Joker says is as close to perfection as one can get, but then moments like the ferry evacuation sequence make me think I’m watching a typical summer blockbuster like Deep Impact or the like. Again we have beat cops with their lame one-liners, and again we have awkward themes repeated to us (“die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain”) like we should expect a quiz after the credits.

I wasn’t totally blown away with the performances across the board. Overall, I think Batman Begins featured more (‘more’ in the quantitative sense) interesting performances. I feel as if Nolan and the writers pumped all of their lifeblood into bringing the Joker to life (not wasted energy by any means) and left the rest of the body to wither. I’m talking about the Wayne/Batman character in particular, who, despite the magnificence of the villain, should still be the main focus of the film. But even the supporting cast of Alfred, Luscious, Harvey and Rachel all feel rather bled to me. (Oldman still shines as bright, if not brighter than ever!) Take away the brilliance of the Joker, or hand him over to a less studied, less driven, less inspired actor than Ledger, and I think the rest of the team will suddenly look rather mopey and dull.

Sorry that all comes off looking quite pissy. I still think it’s a very good movie and there is no doubt that it deserves (and that I need) a second go around. It completely severs itself from the Gotham world of BEGINS, and it improves on it in many ways: namely its balsy attempt to look at good and evil, human nature and what real heroism looks like in the wake of ultimate chaos. Also, without giving it another second’s thought, I nominate Ledger’s Joker the best villain of the decade. Giving it a few minutes thought, he may own villainy going all the way back to Hopkins’ Hannibal himself. Yes. It has nothing to do with the actor’s untimely death - he is positively mesmerizing thanks to both writing and performance. If they choose to move forward with the Joker in the next installment… well, I mostly agree that replacing Ledger would be a serious error. Bringing in an unknown would be suicide. Which leaves big names… which leaves only Johnny Depp. He is literally the only hope, and I bet he’d think twice before accepting.

[Harry Fawkes]

Haven't seen the film yet but I bought the soundtrack and the music is fantastic. Hans Zimmer and JNH have excelled themselves.

[Harmsway]

All I can say is that if the morality-oriented plot point was played out in a similar fashion in a James Bond film, we here would be rolling our eyes and groaning.

I don't know exactly what plot point we're talking about, so I can't even comment. But naturally, there's a significant difference between the characters and worlds of Batman and James Bond, and what each allows for.

[Judo chop]

All I can say is that if the morality-oriented plot point was played out in a similar fashion in a James Bond film, we here would be rolling our eyes and groaning.

I don't know exactly what plot point we're talking about, so I can't even comment. But naturally, there's a significant difference between the characters and worlds of Batman and James Bond, and what each allows for.

If he's talking about the ferry evacuation sequence, I agree. It was horribly written and horribly executed and would have warranted vigorous eyerolling in Bond or in any other film trying to play it even semi-seriously. Shame on Nolan.

[HildebrandRarity]

All I can say is that if the morality-oriented plot point was played out in a similar fashion in a James Bond film, we here would be rolling our eyes and groaning.

I don't know exactly what plot point we're talking about, so I can't even comment. But naturally, there's a significant difference between the characters and worlds of Batman and James Bond, and what each allows for.

Of course. And I was even going to caveat my statement by saying that what you can get away with in a super-hero movie you really can't get away with in this new era of James Bond movie...and i'm not talking about the obvious. But I didn't caveat it simply because, as i've already said, The Dark Knight tries to be an "adult" super-hero movie which also wants to cater to teens. And, as others here have already noted, the balance is not gotten right.

Look at Judo Chop's write up above. He alludes to that plot-point...the one involving the ferries at midnight.

The Dark Knight has the chance of rising from an 8.5 in my book to a 9...but if it were really held to sharper scrutiny, it aslo has the potential of falling to an 8. What keeps it up there is the ensemble cast, the Harvey Dent/Harvey Two Face arc, Heath as The Joker, the thumping score, some really cool shots, and a reasonable attempt at something extraordinary.

I'll be taking in a second - hopefully IMAX - viewing soon and you can bet that, on this website at least, i'll be holding The Dark Knight to the same level of critical analysis that we hold Dr No, Thunderball, DAF, TSWLM, LTK, TWINE and Casino Royale.

[Harmsway]

Action sequences I thought were again hard to follow, and may have been even more questionable from a ‘grounded-in-reality’ standpoint.

How so? And you must admit, the action sequences were edited more clearly. Especially in the mano-a-mano fight scenes.

I’m really very sorry to say that the effects used for 2-Face were laughable and completely out of the proper context for the rest of the film.

You're the first person I've heard suggest this, and I'm shocked, myself. But fair enough.

Again we have beat cops with their lame one-liners,

Where? There's never a section where the film goes Tom Manciewicz like BEGINS does.

And I like the ferry sequence. Admittedly the bit part actors during this sequence are rather dodgy, but everything else about it falls into place for me. Especially since it plays into the Joker/Batman confrontation so beautifully.

[Loomis]

I'm only skimming the posts in this thread because I want to remain spoiler-free for THE DARK KNIGHT, but, man, I saw some clips of it on TV earlier today, and the action scenes look incredible. I'm not even joking.

Not to dispute Hildebrand's claims that the action is messy and hard to follow - I'm sure there's a bit of that in there, indeed more than a bit (I found the action in BATMAN BEGINS either incomprehensible or dull or both). But I'll tell ya: the chase clips of TDK that I saw look amazing.... and shot very nicely and stylishly (but not ostentatiously so).

I'm so excited about TDK that I can hardly breathe. Still, I'm sure that it'll take a miracle for me to consider it a better film than CASINO ROYALE. At the end of the day, I'm a Bond man, not a Bat---- erm, man. We'll see, though.

[Harmsway]

Loomis, my prediction for your reaction is this: you'll see THE DARK KNIGHT as a great improvement on BEGINS in the overall sense, but will find enough wrong with it to keep it from trouncing CASINO ROYALE.

[dinovelvet]

Batman star accused of assault.

http://news.ninemsn.....aspx?id=601698

Oh, crap; that's not good...

His sister and mother making the claim. I don't know what to think, honestly.

That's going to be an awkward Christmas dinner.

[Mister E]

Why not? It would be a refreshing change. Not an outright evil villain- a distorted sense of justice. Vigilante against vigilante. It could make Batman ask all kinds of questions about himself.. and have a Batman movie actually be about Batman.

I think that wouldn't hold up very long and be intresting as well, it's predicatble. Harvey's purpose was served well enough.

[Judo chop]

Action sequences I thought were again hard to follow, and may have been even more questionable from a ‘grounded-in-reality’ standpoint.

How so? And you must admit, the action sequences were edited more clearly. Especially in the mano-a-mano fight scenes.

I am totally willing to admit that this, of all of my criticisms, requires a second look. But, do you really think so after having seen it twice (or more)? As Batman mutilates his way through the dance club? The sound effects are devastating, but all I saw were random elbows and hooks, same as in BEGINS. My biggest complaints are:

1) Batman and Dawes fall onto a car from 35 stories up w/not a scratch.
2) Batman sets up the airplane-snag routine. (I may have missed it, but who is flying the plane and how was this coordinated?) Anyway, very appropriate for an old-school, tongue-in-cheek Bond film… but for Batman? The approach was great. The escape… not so great.
3) The final fight sequence. The setup is wonderful and I can see why you would have been so hyped about seeing it come to screen, however I didn’t feel the intensity that I’m sure I’m expected to feel. I didn’t feel pressed for time and I couldn’t make sense of how much danger was present.

Again… another viewing to be sure, I know.

I’m really very sorry to say that the effects used for 2-Face were laughable and completely out of the proper context for the rest of the film.

You're the first person I've heard suggest this, and I'm shocked, myself.

Dude. I laughed, though I did not want to. If we’re going to go this gruesome, then finish the job. Let the pain be evident. Have the man talk with a serious slur and show spittle running out of his mutilated mouth. He converses with only half his lips without missing a beat! You try that sometime! Had they given him speech deformities along with his physical deformities it would have helped the sympathy cause even more – (as a D.A., speech is possibly his greatest tool. Take that away and you build upon the sympathy aspect even more.) Still, my pick would have been to scale it waaaay back. Two-Face just looks impossibly silly. Not a bad effect and perfectly suitable for the Mummy series. If it looks good to most people now, I don’t think it’s going to stand the test of time. Even short-term.

Again we have beat cops with their lame one-liners,

Where? There's never a section where the film goes Tom Manciewicz like BEGINS does.

Can’t recall precisely. During the Dent escape chase scene, I’m pretty sure I picked up on a few lines that felt stuffed in.

And I like the ferry sequence. Admittedly the bit part actors during this sequence are rather dodgy, but everything else about it falls into place for me. Especially since it plays into the Joker/Batman confrontation so beautifully.

Harms, they were WAAAY dodgy. Hamfisted direction, too. Folks shouting out their idle complaints in turn like Goldfinger’s goons. Is it even realistic the way its presented? No one panics, all hang their head in sorrow and a few outspoken people demand a vote?! Is that really going to happen? I won’t pretend to know exactly how a situation like that would unfold, nor would I expect Nolan to know exactly, but I don’t think it was even close. Cinematically, it was quite predictable with a very stereotyped big scary black inmate making comments directly suggesting one direction then going another at the last second. Forced moral lessons for Batman to regurgitate at the end. This is my one, BIG complaint about the film. Replace this scene and I’ll give the film 4 stars. Actually FIX IT, so it WORKS, and I’ll nudge it towards five.

[Mister E]

I’m really very sorry to say that the effects used for 2-Face were laughable and completely out of the proper context for the rest of the film.

I can't disagree more. Very rarely do artists get Two-Face's makeup right and this was one of those rare times. He looked really messed up.

[Loomis]

Loomis, my prediction for your reaction is this: you'll see THE DARK KNIGHT as a great improvement on BEGINS in the overall sense, but will find enough wrong with it to keep it from trouncing CASINO ROYALE.

Or for that matter trouncing ROCKY BALBOA and RAMBO. But that's okay - I don't expect it to trump the all-time greats.

If it isn't a great improvement on BEGINS, then I very much doubt that I'll enjoy it at all. However, I have faith that it will improve on BB in the same way as (to my mind, anyway) the intelligent and terrific CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER trumped the silly and dull PATRIOT GAMES.