2081 replies to this topic

[Harmsway]

Doesn't change the fact that the chase scene which uses the bat-mobile and the bat-cycle are a jumbled mass of shadows and are less impressive than, say, the night time action scene at Miami International or the night time scene of the Aston Martin avoiding Vesper in the road.

I humbly disagree. I don't really like the Miami International sequence much (weakest segment of CASINO ROYALE by a long stretch), and the Aston Martin scene is so short it's impossible to compare to a fairly long, epic action sequence.

Further, everyone knows that the Oscars are politically motivated and someone in the Academy even admitted that Casino Royale was not nominated "because it is a James Bond movie...and we want to maintian some degree of artisitic credibility."

You were the one who brought up BAFTAs. All awards are, to a degree, politically motivated.

Another thing, you really think you can compare a guy in heavy make up who's asked to act like a freak to the polished and nuanced performace of Daniel Craig in Casino Royale?

Well, maybe, maybe not. But as I said, my original point was that the overall set of performances in THE DARK KNIGHT were superior to the overall set of performances in CASINO ROYALE. And it's not surprising, given that the actors are given meatier material in THE DARK KNIGHT.

Just because Ledger was wearing heavy make-up doesn't make his performance any less polished or nuanced. As a "freak", Ledger was a revelation - in fact, if I could summarise Ledger's performance in a single word, "nuanced" would probably be it.

Quite right.

Out of interest, has Nolan ever expressed an interest in helming a Bond film? I know the fans toss his name around a bit, but has he ever said he might be up for it?

Yeah, he's said he'd love to do one. He's a huge fan.

[Andrew]

I believe I read an interview once where Nolan stated his favorite was OHMSS.

He would be wonderful but it will never happen.

[HildebrandRarity]

Another thing, you really think you can compare a guy in heavy make up who's asked to act like a freak to the polished and nuanced performace of Daniel Craig in Casino Royale? You think you can compare an actor being asked to act like a lunatic behind a painted face to a guy asked to be physically lethal AND pull off the Vesper shower scene? The carpet-beater scene? The death of Vesper scene?

How can you possibly compare?

Just because Ledger was wearing heavy make-up doesn't make his performance any less polished or nuanced. As a "freak", Ledger was a revelation - in fact, if I could summarise Ledger's performance in a single word, "nuanced" would probably be it.

Whatever. It's apples and oranges and, in my opinion, James Bond can't be compared to The Joker.

We know DC's acting ability and they came to the fore in the way he played out the torture scene and his scene with Vesper in the shower and after her suicide.

Ledger, it was rumoured, was in line for James Bond...or at least was fan rumoured among the many when Pierce was retired by Eon from the role in '04/'05.

But he was not considered or screen tested for James Bond. And now he's dead and everyone's jumping on the band-wagon for a posthumus Oscar nomination. The Academy award shows have been losing ratings in recent years...it'll be a publicity fest for them if they nominate the poor soul.

Isn't it ironic that people are pointing not to the main character and actor in this movie but the secondary character/actor. The fact that said actor is dead has heightened the hype. It's no different when others die young. We got it with Morrison and Lennon and Cobain and Pricess Diana. People have their perversities and now Ledger-as-The-Joker is the new dead icon. God bless him.

[HildebrandRarity]

Doesn't change the fact that the chase scene which uses the bat-mobile and the bat-cycle are a jumbled mass of shadows and are less impressive than, say, the night time action scene at Miami International or the night time scene of the Aston Martin avoiding Vesper in the road.

I humbly disagree. I don't really like the Miami International sequence much (weakest segment of CASINO ROYALE by a long stretch), and the Aston Martin scene is so short it's impossible to compare to a fairly long, epic action sequence.

Well, I humbly disagree with you.

The Miami International scene was a tense, mano-a-mano duel set to a heart-thumping tempo and Bondian score. It gave an acute insight into the developing main character and the CGI was so massively impressive that you could barely tell that they'd shot the entire 10-odd minutes of it using only two airplanes. I saw the movie six times at the theatre and was at the edge of my seat every time.

The Aston Martin avoiding Vesper, who was fiendishly tied-up in the road, was a mega stunt and a thing of tremendous beauty.

I've seen TDK only once but from that single viewing, the scene you refer to as "long and epic" was, to me, "a jumbled mass of less-than-descernable shadows" and could have been more viewer friendly. Perhaps i'll change my mind on second viewing. I'd like to see it on IMAX, in fact.

[The Dove]

Exactly my thoughts, HildebrandRarity...its apples and oranges...totally pointless trying to compare one franchise to another.. Bond and Batman are totally different.

[DamnCoffee]

I'm booking my tickets now. I'm going this thursday. The day of release.

[Harmsway]

Exactly my thoughts, HildebrandRarity...its apples and oranges...totally pointless trying to compare one franchise to another.. Bond and Batman are totally different.

They're not that different from one another (as two major action franchises, they're begging to be compared). And despite their differences, they can be evaluated against eachother by looking at how well each film achieves what it sets out to do.

[Loomis]

The action scenes in TDK had better be a vast improvement over the action scenes in BB, because the action scenes in BB are messy and dull.

Harmsway, without giving away any spoilers (if possible), how does TDK provide its actors with meatier material than CR?

[Harmsway]

The action scenes in TDK had better be a vast improvement over the action scenes in BB, because the action scenes in BB are messy and dull.

Agreed, and they are.

Harmsway, without giving away any spoilers (if possible), how does TDK provide its actors with meatier material than CR?

To put it simply, there's just a lot of really dramatic stuff that goes down in THE DARK KNIGHT.

[HildebrandRarity]

Exactly my thoughts, HildebrandRarity...its apples and oranges...totally pointless trying to compare one franchise to another.. Bond and Batman are totally different.

They're not that different from one another (as two major action franchises, they're begging to be compared). And despite their differences, they can be evaluated against eachother by looking at how well each film achieves what it sets out to do.

One could say that about anything...that anything can be evaluated egainst something else by looking at how well each endeavour achieves what it sets out to do.

When James Bond starts flying around and using all his old gadgets, people will either laugh or scream for blood. Similarly true for any Bond villians with painted faces or massive facial quirks.

Might as well compare Batman to Indy Jones or to Star Wars...after all they too are action franchises.

[[dark]]

Harmsway, without giving away any spoilers (if possible), how does TDK provide its actors with meatier material than CR?

I'm not Harmsway, but a lot of the reviews have pointed to the film's overarching theme of good vs. evil, a duality which is expertly handled and not at all contrived, unlike other comic book adaptations (Spider-man 3's hamfisted approach springs to mind). This material gives a near-flawless cast plenty to chew on.

Might as well compare Batman to Indy Jones or to Star Wars...after all they too are action franchises.

If this were an Indy or a Star Wars site, we probably would be.

[HildebrandRarity]

Harmsway, without giving away any spoilers (if possible), how does TDK provide its actors with meatier material than CR?

To put it simply, there's just a lot of really dramatic stuff that goes down in THE DARK KNIGHT.

Harmsway is being very biased in his views re TDK v CR, i'm afraid. You can clearly see this, for example, when I noted some sloppy story-telling and he (Harmsway) quickly dismissed it as Nolan following some Hollywood/Spielbergian methodolgy!

The kind of drama that takes place in TDK would make any one of us James Bond fans cringe or cry for blood.

Let's say they are of two separate universes...but that CR is a stronger movie.

I won't ruin the movie for you. Once you have seen it, we can go into the details.

[Loomis]

Harmsway, without giving away any spoilers (if possible), how does TDK provide its actors with meatier material than CR?

To put it simply, there's just a lot of really dramatic stuff that goes down in THE DARK KNIGHT.

But the same is true of CR. Although I guess the love story element takes centre stage in terms of drama, with a more understated yet very powerful subtext of Bond coming to terms with his own violent nature and abilities. I take it that TDK stuffs in rather more "really dramatic stuff" than CR? Subplots galore, eh?

[Harmsway]

One could say that about anything...that anything can be evaluated egainst something else by looking at how well each endeavour achieves what it sets out to do.

Quite right.

Might as well compare Batman to Indy Jones or to Star Wars...after all they too are action franchises.

I've already compared it to STAR WARS. Haven't bothered yet to compare it to Indiana Jones. I'll get around to it, though.

I take it that TDK stuffs in rather more "really dramatic stuff" than CR? Subplots galore, eh?

Yeah. There's just more of it because THE DARK KNIGHT's an ensemble film. CASINO ROYALE is not.

[The Dove]

The action scenes in TDK had better be a vast improvement over the action scenes in BB, because the action scenes in BB are messy and dull.

Agreed, and they are.

Harmsway, without giving away any spoilers (if possible), how does TDK provide its actors with meatier material than CR?

To put it simply, there's just a lot of really dramatic stuff that goes down in THE DARK KNIGHT.

Sorry to disagree with you fellows, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in here. How can you say the action in Batman Begins was dull and messy?? To me, one of the reasons why I like Begins slightly better than The Dark Knight is that the action sequences are NOT too over the top and the pacing of them is perfect.. not too much action followed by another five minutes or so of action.. Less is more.. Agreed there are some fantastic sequences in the Dark Knight, but I don't know.. sometimes I felt that they overdid it in some places.. But I'll have to see the film again to really get an overall sense of pace.. I guess with a first viewing of films like The Dark Knight, things do tend to flashby quickly that it gets overwhelming..

[HildebrandRarity]

Loomis, my friend, some (not all) of TDK's "drama" is cringe-worthy and us James Bond fans would be calling for Eon's head if they allowed it to take place in this era.

Also, there's a rush job on the drama surrounding one major death in the movie (and I won't tell you who...and of course there would be one major death in a movie filled with it, but anywhooo...) it's dealt with by one of the main characters in an entirely unsatisfactory manner...as if to make more time for night-time action.

[Harmsway]

Harmsway is being very biased in his views re TDK v CR, i'm afraid. You can clearly see this, for example, when I noted some sloppy story-telling and he (Harmsway) quickly dismissed it as Nolan following some Hollywood/Spielbergian methodolgy!

For what it's worth, I've made similar comments for Bond films before, as well. It's not bias as much as it is a truth. And indeed its speculative, but I don't see why that speculation need be tossed aside as if it's worthless.

Loomis, my friend, some (not all) of TDK's "drama" is cringe-worthy and us James Bond fans would be calling for Eon's head if they allowed it to take place in this era.

Well, I don't agree on the former point, but the latter, maybe. But that's just because Bond is, in Fleming's words, "a cardboard booby." And I must remind you that some of CASINO ROYALE's drama was cringeworthy, too. I point you to: "If all that was left of you was your smile or little finger..." There's nothing quite so inane in THE DARK KNIGHT.

But this boxing match is getting rather silly. I do believe THE DARK KNIGHT is a superior film to CASINO ROYALE in most respects, and I'll leave it at that.

[HildebrandRarity]

Casino Royale is a 9.5. The Dark Knight is an 8.5. The public has latched on to hype and a dead man's performance for a supporting role and elevated the film to levels which dismisses its flaws, cringe-worthy moments and over-dramaticizing as it tries to be an "adult super-hero movie" while catering to the teen audience.

I'm tired of the boxing match too. But only those who think this movie is perfect or a 10 are allowed to comment in this thread. The rest of us (who think it's a good movie but is not the greatest film ever made) just have to shut up.

[Jim]

Casino Royale is a 9.5. The Dark Knight is an 8.5. The public has latched on to hype and a dead man's performance for a supporting role and elevated the film to levels which dismisses its flaws, cringe-worthy moments and over-dramaticizing as it tries to be an "adult super-hero movie" while catering to the teen audience.

You have now told me what to think and you must be right.

I have problems with the Palestine issue. Please tell me what to think about that.

[HildebrandRarity]

Casino Royale is a 9.5. The Dark Knight is an 8.5. The public has latched on to hype and a dead man's performance for a supporting role and elevated the film to levels which dismisses its flaws, cringe-worthy moments and over-dramaticizing as it tries to be an "adult super-hero movie" while catering to the teen audience.

You have now told me what to think and you must be right.

I have problems with the Palestine issue. Please tell me what to think about that.

Read sentences two and three, paragraph two of post 1309 above.

As for the Palestine thing, think what you want. I have no opinion of it.

[Harmsway]

Hildebrandt Rarity has latched on to hype and elevated the film to levels which dismisses its flaws, cringe-worthy moments and over-dramaticizing as it tries to be an "adult Bond movie" while catering to the general audience.

See? Now it applies to CASINO ROYALE, as well.

But only those who think this movie is perfect or a 10 are allowed to comment in this thread.

Nonsense. There's been lots of discussion between varying schools of thought on THE DARK KNIGHT, but all valid opinions are and have been welcome. I haven't seen much slamming in these parts.

[Loomis]

How can you say the action in Batman Begins was dull and messy??

I think it's put together badly and is never exciting. The action in BATMAN BEGINS really blows, but the heavy drama elements make the movie (just about) worth watching. However, there are plenty of cringeworthy elements, and the film feels horribly overlong. Merely my humble opinion, mind.

BATMAN BEGINS is a 5.

CASINO ROYALE is a 10.

THE DARK KNIGHT is far superior to INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL. Of course, I say that without having actually seen THE DARK KNIGHT.

[Mister Asterix]

There's NO WAY The Dark Knight is superior to Casino Royale. Casino Royale does not cheat the viewer whereas, as a pure motion picture, The Dark Knight puposely avoids setting its CGI in daylight. It's done to avoid criticism. You're left wanting in the scenes at night, esp the bat-cycle scenes. The viewer is cheated...even if it's a little. Casino Royale does not do this.

It was quite clever of them to go back all those year and create Batman as being a creature of the night just so they could cover up flaws in the then non-existant CGI.

You're quite a funny one, my old friend.

The fact is, Casino Royale does not cheat you. The Dark Knight allows for the possiblility...and tries to take advantage of it...but fails in the chase sequence. There is no clearity. It's a jumbled, shillouetted mass of shadows and, as a result, WEAKER than the action in Casino Royale0.

I agree with that. Casino Royale has much tighter, easier-to-follow, adrenaline-pumping action sequences. The Dark Knight tops Batman Begins action which I’ve heard described as ‘flashing a cape in front of the camera and playing punching sounds’, but Casino Royale did the action better than The Dark Knight.

I will point out to you, however, that Casino Royale’s one major effect sequence — the police car being blown off the tarmac — was at night.

When it comes down to comparisons though, The Dark Knight, as good as it was, left me wanting something better; Casino Royale did not.

Advantage Bond.

[[dark]]

Hildebrandt Rarity has latched on to hype and elevated the film to levels which dismisses its flaws, cringe-worthy moments and over-dramaticizing as it tries to be an "adult Bond movie" while catering to the general audience.

See? Now it applies to CASINO ROYALE, as well.

Worryingly, I think that statement applies more to Casino Royale than it does to The Dark Knight.

But maybe I'm saying that because I'm a Bond fanboy and not a Batman fanboy, and thus more likely to nitpick the former than the latter.

[The Dove]

How can you say the action in Batman Begins was dull and messy??

I think it's put together badly and is never exciting. The action in BATMAN BEGINS really blows, but the heavy drama elements make the movie (just about) worth watching. However, there are plenty of cringeworthy elements, and the film feels horribly overlong. Merely my humble opinion, mind.

BATMAN BEGINS is a 5.

CASINO ROYALE is a 10.

THE DARK KNIGHT is far superior to INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL. Of course, I say that without having actually seen THE DARK KNIGHT.

Fair enough, Loomis..I respect your opinions (I love a diplomatic solution to these little differences ) I agree that Dark Knight was better than Indiana Jones, which I loved by the way, though I'm not going to never watch Indy 4 again because of it.

However, can we at least agree on one thing: Die Another Day was a terrible movie? LOL

[Tarl_Cabot]

The action in TDK is better but still messy...

TDK does crush Indy...no contest.

[Harmsway]

Fair enough, Loomis..I respect your opinions (I love a diplomatic solution to these little differences ) I agree that Dark Knight was better than Indiana Jones, which I loved by the way, though I'm not going to never watch Indy 4 again because of it.

However, can we at least agree on one thing: Die Another Day was a terrible movie? LOL

Loomis loves DIE ANOTHER DAY.

[Mister Asterix]

TDK does crush Indy...no contest.

None whatsoever.

[The Dove]

Fair enough, Loomis..I respect your opinions (I love a diplomatic solution to these little differences ) I agree that Dark Knight was better than Indiana Jones, which I loved by the way, though I'm not going to never watch Indy 4 again because of it.

However, can we at least agree on one thing: Die Another Day was a terrible movie? LOL

Loomis loves DIE ANOTHER DAY.

Oops!! Bad choice of film on my part!! LOL Nevermind then!! LOL

[HildebrandRarity]

TDK does crush Indy...no contest.

None whatsoever.

Indeed.