2081 replies to this topic

[HildebrandRarity]

I did not have an axe to grind either. But what i'm hearing on these forums that some think it's the greatest movie of all time! LOL!!!

LOL!

[Publius]

Ledger's Joker was not accurate to the comics (as far as looks go), but was entertaining, except for him doing a lizard/snake imitation throughout the film (Was I the only one who saw this?).

I saw it more as a geeky version of Michael Keaton's Beetlejuice (go figure), but I can definitely see what you're talking about. I thought it was great, though.

Not to dispute Hildebrand's claims that the action is messy and hard to follow - I'm sure there's a bit of that in there, indeed more than a bit (I found the action in BATMAN BEGINS either incomprehensible or dull or both). But I'll tell ya: the chase clips of TDK that I saw look amazing.... and shot very nicely and stylishly (but not ostentatiously so).

For what it's worth, I think the action's about as hard to follow as the underwater scenes in Thunderball (or any Bond movie for that matter). Probably less so. Definitely easier for me than Begins.

Yes I liked it (8.5 / 10 so far) but when so many laud it as one of the greats of all time, I have to take issue. My view is that it's one of the best action/adventure movies of the 00s...but that's it. I think that of Gladiator, The Bourne Identity and Casino Royale as well.

Agreed. I like CR more, but part of that is just liking the character of Bond better and enjoying more his style of adventure. To its credit, I think TDK had less wrinkles in it from a pure filmmaking perspective. Maybe if EON gave Nolan relatively free reign on a Bond movie starring Craig we could have the best of both worlds.

[Harmsway]

Another thing is that if someone comes here on these forums suggesting it's the greatest, then they better be able to handle the heat of scrutiny because CBn-ers are used to putting each and every James Bond film under a significant degree of critical analysis. In this vein, I can safely say that, as a mere comparison (if such things are even possible inspite of the similarities in 'genre'), Casino Royale is a superior film.

CASINO ROYALE does not stand up under scrutiny. CASINO ROYALE has flaws coming out the wazoo - awkward pacing, a first act that's loaded with too much action and too little story, Bond making some ludicrous moves, an implausible M/Bond relationship, a romantic relationship that is admittedly rushed (and in, at least one scene, is kind of silly), a ludicrous torture scene, and an overly convoluted third act with such crazy plotting that even Eva Green didn't understand it.

and, finally, Batman actually playing third fiddle in his own movie (an aspect of which James Bond fans would be screeming for Eon's blood!).

That's where the difference between the characters come in. Bond's not an ensemble character. Batman can be, and has been. He's shared the story with other folks before, even in some of the so-called great Batman narratives (including THE LONG HALLOWEEN, Nolan's primary inspiration for this film). Not blasphemy by any stretch.

At any rate, I take issue with the idea that he's playing third fiddle in his own film... I'd say he's equal, in terms of story and development, with Dent and the Joker. Maybe slightly more than Dent, but he's definitely equal with Joker.

[HildebrandRarity]

At any rate, I take issue with the idea that he's playing third fiddle in his own film... I'd say he's equal, in terms of story and development, with Dent and the Joker. Maybe slightly more than Dent, but he's definitely equal with Joker.

What if I said Bale's performance plays third fiddle to Ledger's and Eckhart's?

...Casino Royale is a superior film.

CASINO ROYALE does not stand up under scrutiny. CASINO ROYALE has flaws coming out the wazoo...

Harmsway...Loyal to the last.

[Harmsway]

At any rate, I take issue with the idea that he's playing third fiddle in his own film... I'd say he's equal, in terms of story and development, with Dent and the Joker. Maybe slightly more than Dent, but he's definitely equal with Joker.

What if I said Bale's performance plays third fiddle to Ledger and Eckhart?

I wouldn't agree, either (and not living up to the performances of Ledger and Eckhart would hardly be a crime, anyway). I don't honestly think there was much more Bale could have done with his performance, in the suit or out of it.

...Casino Royale is a superior film.

CASINO ROYALE does not stand up under scrutiny. CASINO ROYALE has flaws coming out the wazoo...

Harmsway...Loyal to the last.

All those things I said in that paragraph aren't new things. I've talked openly about these flaws since CR hit DVD. And I said before, I do think CASINO ROYALE is the best Bond film of them of all. I just don't think it's flawless.

[HildebrandRarity]

At any rate, I take issue with the idea that he's playing third fiddle in his own film... I'd say he's equal, in terms of story and development, with Dent and the Joker. Maybe slightly more than Dent, but he's definitely equal with Joker.

What if I said Bale's performance plays third fiddle to Ledger and Eckhart?

I wouldn't agree, either (and not living up to the performances of Ledger and Eckhart would hardly be a crime, anyway). I don't honestly think there was much more Bale could have done with his performance, in the suit or out of it.

Well, i.m.o., The Dark Knight is Harvey Dent's/Harvey Two Face's story...The Tragedy Of The White Knight Of Gotham © I would term it. And, Ledger as The Joker puts Bale's performace as Bruce Wayne/Batman in the shadows.

I feel sorry for Christian Bale at the moment. He does wonders for the character in Batman Begins and now he has to take a huge back seat to a dead actor who's put in a legendary performance. How do you compete with a dead man's legend? How do you come to terms with that?

...Casino Royale is a superior film.

CASINO ROYALE does not stand up under scrutiny. CASINO ROYALE has flaws coming out the wazoo...

Harmsway...Loyal to the last.

All those things I said in that paragraph aren't new things. I've talked openly about these flaws since CR hit DVD.

You actually had to wait for the DVD to rip in, eh? Was it pirated too?

Well, The Dark Knight can only fall from here, my friend. It will have a tougher time when some of the more discerning get their dirty hands on the Bat Man's DVD.

It'll be 'Pistols at Dawn...that sort of thing..."

[Harmsway]

Well, i.m.o., The Dark Knight is Harvey Dent's/Harvey Two Face's story...The Tragedy Of The White Knight Of Gotham © I would term it.

He's the center of the narrative, sure, but I don't think he's the protagonist of the tale.

And, Ledger as The Joker puts Bale's performace as Bruce Wayne/Batman in the shadows.

I don't think that's an issue of performance as much as it is the characters. The Joker always steals the show from Batman. How could he not?

[Harmsway]

All those things I said in that paragraph aren't new things. I've talked openly about these flaws since CR hit DVD.

You actually had to wait for the DVD, eh?

Well, I haven't revisited my comments on CR from around its release, so I don't quite remember what I said/didn't say. I figured it was safer to say "since CR hit DVD," 'cause I'm more confident of my consistency since that point.

[DamnCoffee]

I am VERY confused. Everything I've been on says the UK release date is on friday. But my tickets are booked for tomorrow.

Someone PLEASE help me out.

[sharpshooter]

I am VERY confused. Everything I've been on says the UK release date is on friday. But my tickets are booked for tomorrow.

Someone PLEASE help me out.

Mharkin, I'm sorry, I've got no idea. What are the television spots and advertising material saying? If you've got tickets booked for tomorrow, I guess that's that.

I’m really very sorry to say that the effects used for 2-Face were laughable and completely out of the proper context for the rest of the film.

I can't disagree more. Very rarely do artists get Two-Face's makeup right and this was one of those rare times. He looked really messed up.

Indeed. I am a massive fan of the portrayal of Harvey Dent / Two Face in TDK. Laughable is the last word I would use for TDK's Two Face. It is very much in line with the rest of the film. Compared to Tommy Lee Jones, Eckhart's charred Two-Face is jarringly grotesque. It has received gasps in each screening I have attended so far.

[Loomis]

CASINO ROYALE does not stand up under scrutiny. CASINO ROYALE has flaws coming out the wazoo - awkward pacing, a first act that's loaded with too much action and too little story, Bond making some ludicrous moves, an implausible M/Bond relationship, a romantic relationship that is admittedly rushed (and in, at least one scene, is kind of silly), a ludicrous torture scene, and an overly convoluted third act with such crazy plotting that even Eva Green didn't understand it.

Goodness. Another viewing of THE DARK KNIGHT and Harmsway will be a fully-fledged CraigNotBonder.

(Just kidding. )

[Vauxhall]

I am VERY confused. Everything I've been on says the UK release date is on friday. But my tickets are booked for tomorrow.

Someone PLEASE help me out.

The UK release is tomorrow. Advanced screenings are today.

[Loomis]

I am VERY confused. Everything I've been on says the UK release date is on friday. But my tickets are booked for tomorrow.

Someone PLEASE help me out.

It's true that THE DARK KNIGHT opens here on Friday, but effectively it opens tomorrow. "Previews" will be running from tomorrow. I too will be seeing it tomorrow.

This is pretty common with blockbusters for which there will be very high public demand, to start showing them a couple of days before the official opening. For instance, I saw DIE ANOTHER DAY and INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL on a Wednesday. Those films officially opened on a Friday, but some cinemas were putting them on early.

I'm actually surprised that cinemas haven't started screening THE DARK KNIGHT today, unless they have and I don't know about it. As far as I know, though, Odeon is showing it from tomorrow. So relax, you'll be seeing it tomorrow. It's all good.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

I don't know how people could find something so ridiculously fake looking as being grotesque. The glimpses of Nicholas Cage without a face in Face/Off - now that was grotesque.

[DamnCoffee]

Isn't that illegal? Without the distributors permission?

[Harmsway]

CASINO ROYALE does not stand up under scrutiny. CASINO ROYALE has flaws coming out the wazoo - awkward pacing, a first act that's loaded with too much action and too little story, Bond making some ludicrous moves, an implausible M/Bond relationship, a romantic relationship that is admittedly rushed (and in, at least one scene, is kind of silly), a ludicrous torture scene, and an overly convoluted third act with such crazy plotting that even Eva Green didn't understand it.

Goodness. Another viewing of THE DARK KNIGHT and Harmsway will be a fully-fledged CraigNotBonder.

(Just kidding. )

You know I sing the praises of CASINO ROYALE, and still will. It's so good, I have sincere doubts about QUANTUM OF SOLACE's ability to match it. I don't think I have to pretend that a film's perfect to love it, either in the case of CASINO ROYALE or THE DARK KNIGHT.

I don't know how people could find something so ridiculously fake looking as being grotesque.

One lady nearby me screamed when it was revealed. I thought it was pretty gruesome, myself.

[Skudor]

Isn't that illegal? Without the distributors permission?

No. Standard practice. The 'preview' is very much official. Guess it's just a marketing gimmic to make people feel special - seeing the film before it even opens (along with a few thousand other people...).

[Vauxhall]

Isn't that illegal? Without the distributors permission?

All screenings in major cinemas will be done with the permission of the distributors. Advanced or otherwise.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

I don't know how people could find something so ridiculously fake looking as being grotesque.

One lady nearby me screamed when it was revealed. I thought it was pretty gruesome, myself.

I appreciate what they were trying with it, but the effects just don't come off right. It looks more computer game/cartoon than horrifying. Have you seen Face/Off? The brief glimpse of a skinless face is gruesome. There is a difference in the execution of the same idea, and one IMO is clearly better.

[Judo chop]

I’m really very sorry to say that the effects used for 2-Face were laughable and completely out of the proper context for the rest of the film.

I can't disagree more. Very rarely do artists get Two-Face's makeup right and this was one of those rare times. He looked really messed up.

Indeed. I am a massive fan of the portrayal of Harvey Dent / Two Face in TDK. Laughable is the last word I would use for TDK's Two Face. It is very much in line with the rest of the film. Compared to Tommy Lee Jones, Eckhart's charred Two-Face is jarringly grotesque. It has received gasps in each screening I have attended so far.

I’ve not made any comparison to Tommy Lee Jones’ version of the character. Not that comparisons can’t or shouldn’t be made… just saying that I haven’t. I don’t care how Eckhart stands up to Jones. I’m taking Two-Face’s face completely in the context of this film and our world.

Maybe ‘laughable’ was an exaggeration – sorry I didn’t pick my words carefully enough. The artistry is detailed and gory, but not what I would call realistic. Maybe I’m wrong about that? Maybe I need to see a victim with burns that severe who also went without treatment, though I hope I can avoid that experience and just trust my simple understanding of the human anatomy and how it reacts to fire.

But really, my biggest gripe is that his speech is not affected by the lack of flesh. That much I am NOT wrong about. You cannot lose half your face and maintain your speech. He’s a talking zombie, just like something out of the MUMMY, or PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN and that effect is goofy, even if one argues that the visuals are realistic. Fine, if that’s where you’re going with the film, but the rest of the world of DARK KNIGHT has said goodbye to comic book land. I don’t think it’s appropriate to pick and choose when you want to go comic and when you want to go realistic. I think they tried for both. There is a rendering of Two-Face out there that could be just as horrifying but appropriately realistic for TDK.

I guess I’m surprised that no one has made the same point as I am. (No one besides my two brothers who saw the film with me, that is.)

EDIT: And Mr. Teddy Bear. That's one more for me.

[Harmsway]

Maybe ‘laughable’ was an exaggeration – sorry I didn’t pick my words carefully enough. The artistry is detailed and gory, but not what I would call realistic. Maybe I’m wrong about that? Maybe I need to see a victim with burns that severe who also went without treatment, though I hope I can avoid that experience and just trust my simple understanding of the human anatomy and how it reacts to fire.

I'm sure someone brave enough to do an internet search could verify how realistic or not realistic it is.

But really, my biggest gripe is that his speech is not affected by the lack of flesh. That much I am NOT wrong about.

Fair enough. I wondered how they'd do this long ago and figured they'd just not bother correcting his voice rather than give him some weird lisp, so I was prepared to accept that.

Fine, if that’s where you’re going with the film, but the rest of the world of DARK KNIGHT has said goodbye to comic book land.

Not IMO. It's certainly more real-world feel than ever before because of how the whole affair is shot, but not so real-world that it doesn't feel like a fantasy. Comic-book land is all throughout DARK KNIGHT, especially in the persona of the Joker.

[Judo chop]

Fine, if that’s where you’re going with the film, but the rest of the world of DARK KNIGHT has said goodbye to comic book land.

Not IMO. It's certainly more real-world feel than ever before because of how the whole affair is shot, but not so real-world that it doesn't feel like a fantasy. Comic-book land is all throughout DARK KNIGHT, especially in the persona of the Joker.

The Joker’s persona is comic book - agreed. As is Batman’s dual-identity. And it’s totally fine that Two-Face should be ‘converted’ to the side of chaos and have comic persona. I’m totally fine with Two-Face keeping to the comics and choosing to keep his deformed face out of an inconsolable rage©.

Again, I don’t qualify my statements enough. Of course TDK is not waving goodbye to fantasy completely (with the above points as evidence of that), but it still keeps a pretty short leash on that fantasy. That’s what I’m talking about - the length of the leash. Is Two-Face’s deformity held at the same length as the rest of the comic book elements of the film?

I don’t think so. I think it’s been let loose to run wild into PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN territory. It upsets the fantasy/realism balance of the film.

[[dark]]

and, finally, Batman actually playing third fiddle in his own movie (an aspect of which James Bond fans would be screeming for Eon's blood!).

That's where the difference between the characters come in. Bond's not an ensemble character. Batman can be, and has been. He's shared the story with other folks before, even in some of the so-called great Batman narratives (including THE LONG HALLOWEEN, Nolan's primary inspiration for this film). Not blasphemy by any stretch.

The way I see it (and I'm no hardcore Batfan) is that Bruce Wayne's life has been shaped by crime from an early age. Wayne's character develops as a result of the villains he faces and the crimes they commit. By beefing up the villain's/villains' standing within a film (although it has to be done well), the impacts upon Wayne/Batman become clearer. The Dark Knight's ending, for instance, would have been much less resonant if the Joker's and Dent's roles were reduced.

[Harmsway]

Is Two-Face’s deformity held at the same length as the rest of the comic book elements of the film?

I think so. This is the same film with the tumbler, bat-pod, sonar vision, stomach-implanted bombs, and a guy who has a cape glider. Yeah, I think it's about on par with everything else.

[[dark]]

Is Two-Face’s deformity held at the same length as the rest of the comic book elements of the film?

I don’t think so. I think it’s been let loose to run wild into PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN territory. It upsets the fantasy/realism balance of the film.

Does it, though?

I haven't heard this criticism elsewhere, scientifically valid though it may be, but Dent's appearance is certainly realistic enough to convince. I personally don't find the lack of a speech impedement jarring in the slightest - and certainly not enough to strip the film of its realism.

[Judo chop]

Is Two-Face’s deformity held at the same length as the rest of the comic book elements of the film?

I don’t think so. I think it’s been let loose to run wild into PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN territory. It upsets the fantasy/realism balance of the film.

Does it, though?

I haven't heard this criticism elsewhere, scientifically valid though it may be, but Dent's appearance is certainly realistic enough to convince. I personally don't find the lack of a speech impedement jarring in the slightest - and certainly not enough to strip the film of its realism.

Well, that’s it for me then. Batpods and flying capes and back-alley phone-implant surgeries are based on the rules of reality, and could some day BE reality, though reality they may not be right now. Two-Face is a talking skull, which will never be reality, and that isn’t something I think makes sense in this particular Batman film. It doesn’t 'strip the realism' from the film which is very well established elsewhere, but instead for me stands jarringly outside of it as the one outlier. But I’ll just leave it at that. I certainly don’t want to waste cyberspace trying to make someone agree with me.

[Harmsway]

Two-Face is a talking skull, which will never be reality,

Well, I don't know about talking skulls via fire damage specifically, but I've seen some damage that pretty much come down to talking-skull levels. And yes, it was pretty horrifying, and at the same time, eerily unreal.

[Judo chop]

Two-Face is a talking skull, which will never be reality,

Well, I don't know about talking skulls via fire damage specifically, but I've seen some damage that pretty much come down to talking-skull levels. And yes, it was pretty horrifying, and at the same time, eerily unreal.

I have not, as I have confessed. I don't doubt that fire could do that kind of damage although I think his eye would have been melted in the socket. But I really don't want to head down that alley, medically and forensically analyzing the crap out of his condition based on the angle of the flames, the time of contact, the treatments available in a city such as Gotham, etc... I'm willng to suspend a whole lot of disbelief knowing that THE DARK KNIGHT is a film, and at its heart, a comic book film at that.

This is my only point: A person speaking with perfect annunciation using just their teeth just reminds me of POTC, a truly fantastical film.

I think they could have toned it down to a point where it didn't disrupt my sense of realism, and still provided the horror you guys see in it currently. That's all. Bless you guys for being able to take the visuals seriously. It's my loss.

[DR76]

I have to agree with Judo Chop. Harvey Dent being able to talk with half of his face resembling a skeleton seemed odd. And I'm surprised that he didn't end up infected, walking around like that.

[Judo chop]

I have to agree with Judo Chop. Harvey Dent being able to talk with half of his face resembling a skeleton seemed odd. And I'm surprised that he didn't end up infected, walking around like that.

I didn’t want to bring up the infection thing… but I’m glad you did. Yes, if his face is going to be half missing, I could have used more pain evident in Dent’s portrayal. After his escape from the hospital he doesn’t even appear disturbed by it.

And do you know what that really reminds me of? The female torture victim that escapes at the end of HOSTEL with her eye hanging out.

And I’d thank Mr. Nolan very, very much for never again reminding me of anything from that terrible, terrible film.