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SPOILER: "The game is..."


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#331 tdalton

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 04:03 PM

I have nothing against the game of poker, I actually play it on occasion (although I don't care for the "Texas Hold 'Em" version very much).

But Texas Hold 'Em is totally over-saturated on TV here in the US.  I'd be happy to never see another Texas Hold 'Em game at all, and certainly not in CR.  I'm afraid that by the end of '06 the "fad" will be done and it will already look outdated when CR is released.

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Exactly right.

IMO, Poker shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a Bond film. Baccarat is Bond's game (and Le Chiffre's in the novel), and despite all of EON's assurances that this is "going back to the basics", this is just further evidence that that statement is just flat out false.

#332 Pussfeller

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 06:12 PM

As long as they don't make it "celebrity poker", I see no problem with this at all. Naturally I want it to feel elegant and Bondian, but what's wrong with the game of poker, strictly speaking?

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with it at all, especially when you consider that the purpose of the casino scene should be to build tension and establish Le Chiffre's animosity towards Bond. I think Fleming would agree that poker suits this purpose -- and Bond's personality -- much better than baccarat, which is basically a dignified lottery. Bond's life is more about bluff and bluster than luck. He's a strategist, and strategy actually has meaning in poker. Baccarat is classy, but it's not a game of skill. There's no time to build tension, no opportunity for finesse and deception; in short, no real show-down. It's just a way for rich people to lose money.

In spite of its vulgar reputation and overexposure, poker is really more appropriate for a Bond film than baccarat. In fact, due to the fact that poker is a solitary game, it's even more Bondian than bridge, which Fleming often used to showcase 007's strategic brilliance.

I don't know about "Texas Hold 'Em", which seems kind of silly, but I say keep an open mind about the game itself. Poker may give the casino scenes added realism and currency, not to mention suspense like we've never seen. Remember how boring the casino scenes were in GE and TWINE? I don't want to see that again.

#333 Four Aces

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 06:47 PM

...
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with it at all, especially when you consider that the purpose of the casino scene should be to build tension and establish Le Chiffre's animosity towards Bond. I think Fleming would agree that poker suits this purpose -- and Bond's personality -- much better than baccarat, which is basically a dignified lottery. Bond's life is more about bluff and bluster than luck. He's a strategist, and strategy actually has meaning in poker. Baccarat is classy, but it's not a game of skill. There's no time to build tension, no opportunity for finesse and deception; in short, no real show-down. It's just a way for rich people to lose money.

In spite of its vulgar reputation and overexposure, poker is really more appropriate for a Bond film than baccarat. In fact, due to the fact that poker is a solitary game, it's even more Bondian than bridge, which Fleming often used to showcase 007's strategic brilliance...


Good post. I have excerpted the parts I agree with.

One has to remember that hold'em has only gained popularity because the World Series of Poker, and the World Poker Tour became televised the last couple of years. Most poker played prior to this, in casinos, was the 7-card stud version or the the Hi-Lo/Omaha versions. If these were televised, then they too would become the more popular versions. Right now hold'em may just be a fad. When Steve McQueen starred in The Cincinatti Kid, 7-card stud became the rage. Regardless of the version, poker is a game of skill, and it is also a game of folding, not bluffing. Best place to play poker of any version is Los Angeles, which is the true poker capital of the world.

For anyone who questions the game, and has never played it in a casino, I would invite you to play in any low-limit game, so that you can experience the sensation of what it is like.

4A

Edited by Four Aces, 18 December 2005 - 06:48 PM.


#334 Peter Franks

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 07:30 PM

[quote name='Four Aces' date='18 December 2005 - 19:47']
[quote name='Pussfeller' date='18 December 2005 - 13:12']...
Bond's life is more about bluff and bluster than luck.

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[/quote]

Now that is totally wrong. He always has luck on his side or he would have died. Every time he is cornered at gunpoint it is luck that gets him out. It's luck that gets Bond out of trouble with Le chiffre too. Look check this out from the book and see Bond has never been a bluff player and only gambles on bets close to even chances where luck is a 50:50 chance. Poker is not a Bondian game.

"He has luck. His nerves seem good."

'Well, best of luck.' (M said)
'Thank you, sir,' said Bond and went to the door.

She smiled with the first hint of conspiracy she had shown. 'I would like
to very much,' she said, 'and then perhaps you would chaperon me to the
Casino where Monsieur Mathis tells me you are very much at home. Perhaps I
will bring you luck.'

'[censuré], but you were lucky,' he said when Bond had finished.

"Luck was a servant and not a master. Luck had
to be accepted with a shrug or taken advantage of up to the hilt. But it
had to be understood and recognized for what it was and not confused with a
faulty appreciation of the odds, for, at gambling, the deadly sin is to
mistake bad play for bad luck. And luck in all its moods had to be loved
and not feared. Bond saw luck as a woman, to be softly wooed or brutally
ravaged, never pandered to or pursued. But he was honest enough to admit
that he had never yet been made to suffer by cards or by women."

"to admit
One day,
and he accepted the fact he would be brought to his knees by love or by
luck."

"This piece of luck cheered him
further and, accepting the thirty as a finger-post to the last dozen, he
decided to back the first and last dozens until he had lost twice. Ten
throws later the middle dozen came up twice, costing him four hundred
thousand francs but he rose from the table one million francs to the good. "

" 'I only bet on even
chances, or as near them as I can get."

"The game continued uneventfully, but with a slight bias against the bank.
The third coup is the 'sound barrier' at chemin-de-fer and baccarat. Your
luck can defeat the first and second tests, but when the third deal comes
along it most often spells disaster. "

"Bond sat silent, frozen with defeat. He opened his wide black case and took
out a cigarette. He snapped open the tiny jaws of the Ronson and lit the
cigarette and put the lighter back on the table. He took a deep lungful of
smoke and expelled it between his teeth with a faint hiss.
What now? Back to the hotel and bed, avoiding the commiserating eyes of
Mathis and Leiter and Vesper. Back to the telephone call to London, and
then tomorrow the plane home, the taxi up to Regent's Park, the walk up the
stairs and along the corridor, and M's cold face across the table, his
forced sympathy, his 'better luck next time' and, of course, there couldn't
be one, not another chance like this. "

"Whether
he won or lost, it would be a kick in the teeth to the luck which had been
given him. "

'It is indeed very sad,' said Bond. 'You also have been unlucky,' he
gestured to the proprietor's empty sleeve. 'I myself was very fortunate.'

#335 Pussfeller

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 06:16 AM

I disagree. Bond may seem lucky to us, and yes, he often uses the word "luck", but I don't think good fortune plays any major role in his exploits. Fleming doesn't seem to have been a superstitious man, so I doubt he intended something so numinous and immaterial as luck to be the key to Bond's success. Bond strikes me as a man who uses luck, and the idea of fatalism in general, as a way of coping with the chronic, intense stress associated with his dangerous, lonely, unpredictable work. But he can't in any way depend on luck. He'd be dead in a week.

I've always seen Bond as a competent man, to use Heinlein's term. He's a man with the skill and experience to "make it look easy", to push his mind and body to the limits and leave nothing to chance. It's a classic example of mind over matter. He tells himself it's luck, allowing him to relax and stop worrying. It's just another part of his absolute commitment to the job. If he were just a lucky fool, he wouldn't be a very interesting character.

At least that's how I see it.

#336 Double-Oh Agent

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 06:58 AM

I disagree. Bond may seem lucky to us, and yes, he often uses the word "luck", but I don't think good fortune plays any major role in his exploits. Fleming doesn't seem to have been a superstitious man, so I doubt he intended something so numinous and immaterial as luck to be the key to Bond's success. Bond strikes me as a man who uses luck, and the idea of fatalism in general, as a way of coping with the chronic, intense stress associated with his dangerous, lonely, unpredictable work. But he can't in any way depend on luck. He'd be dead in a week.

I've always seen Bond as a competent man, to use Heinlein's term. He's a man with the skill and experience to "make it look easy", to push his mind and body to the limits and leave nothing to chance. It's a classic example of mind over matter. He tells himself it's luck, allowing him to relax and stop worrying. It's just another part of his absolute commitment to the job. If he were just a lucky fool, he wouldn't be a very interesting character.

At least that's how I see it.

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Good analysis Pussfeller. I believe you're right. Bond doesn't rely on luck, he just makes the most of his opportunities when they come his way--whether they be luck or not. And he doesn't shy away from using luck when it helps him, nor is he afraid when it goes against him. He knows that luck just is. Ultimately, he understands that knowing the odds and how one deals with luck--and adjusting accordingly--is what makes or breaks one's fate.

#337 spynovelfan

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 09:42 AM

I disagree. Bond may seem lucky to us, and yes, he often uses the word "luck", but I don't think good fortune plays any major role in his exploits.

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I agree that just because Bond talks about luck a lot doesn't necessarily mean he's especially lucky. And yes, of course he's competent. But I think luck does play a major role in his exploits. In CASINO ROYALE, he has two major pieces of luck. Firstly, Leiter bales him out when all is lost with money Bond had no idea or hope would come his way. Without that, the mission would be over. And secondly, Le Chiffre is killed by a SMERSH agent, who then decides to spare Bond. This is totally beyond Bond's control. However competent he is, he is strapped to the chair and the SMERSH chap could easily have killed him. Bond is simply very lucky he doesn't.

This pattern repeats throughout the books. In MOONRAKER, Bond would not have been able to complete his mission unless Gala Brand had pickpocketed Drax and discovered the plot. Lucky for him she did. In DR NO, if Honey Ryder hadn't known the bamboo trick, Bond would almost certainly have been killed. Perhaps the best example outside CR is THUNDERBALL, where Domino takes the role of the SMERSH agent. Bond is about to be killed when she intervenes. Had she not, he'd be dead - very lucky, Mr Bond. :tup: In these and other cases, Bond's competence is not enough to complete the mission - chance and unforeseen circumstances make it happen.

#338 SteveKingCool

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 09:55 PM

I love the quotes from the book here and on 36 Days. Have to find the book before I see the movie.

Anyone reckon they will also show Bond playing other casino games apart from the cards?

Edited by SteveKingCool, 05 January 2006 - 09:56 PM.


#339 Peter Franks

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 10:22 AM

If Bond is seen playing other games then.....then we can see him playing baccarat and poker. He can beat Le Chiffre at baccarat one day and then a few days they play poker and each day there is more hate and tension between them until Le Chiffre has Solari put the gun in Bond's back.

#340 Tinfinger

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 10:37 AM

I wanna see the mini golf game between Bond and LeChiffre outside the casino

#341 spynovelfan

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 10:41 AM

I wanna see the mini golf game between Bond and LeChiffre outside the casino

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Is that right before they play tiddlywinks?

#342 Tinfinger

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 10:45 AM

lol, if they do that, THEN the film is ruined!

#343 SteveKingCool

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 03:58 PM

More I think about it more stupid the story is

A poker game that threatens world peace.

Honestly . . . . how sad

Why not get tell all the players Demetrius is a terrorist so they will not to put any money in?

#344 Andrew

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 12:34 AM

How is it stupid that world peace revolves around poker but not bacarat?

#345 Qwerty

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 02:08 AM

I wanna see the mini golf game between Bond and LeChiffre outside the casino

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Well Die Another Day almost had golf in it, yes? :tup:

#346 SteveKingCool

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 08:12 AM

How is it stupid that world peace revolves around poker but not bacarat?

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From what I know of the book Le Chiffre stolen union funds. That money was not for warfare but for trade, communist political parties and workers salaries. The money he plays baccarat for meant a lot to Russians when converted from francs to rubles.

From the IGN report the plot hole is much bigger. Le Chiffre is funding terrorism with poker. Pretty [censored]ing stupid story as terrorism is funded by a much bigger trade in human trafficking, arms, drugs, stock markets, money laundering etc worth BILLIONS. Poker for any small number of millions is a piss.

And we know from the majority of suicide bombers that they do not have money and are willing to do for only a believe because they think their reward is after death.

The casino could easily rig the card deck or ban Le Chiffre from playing if he's a terrorist. It's so silly.

The whole idea of Casino Royale could been fixed but they made the holes even bigger and unrealistic. I am very angry they still keep a very good thriller away from the public!!!!!!

#347 Harmsway

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 08:39 AM

A good thriller can still have big plot holes, SteveKingCool. It's James Bond - big plot holes and unbelievable story concepts are part of the territory.

#348 SteveKingCool

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 09:31 AM

I accept that Harmsway and said as much many times. Just as long as everyone knows that then nobody will be disappointed when they see it isn't realistic like many have thought it will be. We can all be happy with a regular Bond movie. My personal belief is there are no bad Bond movies if we accept each one for what they are.

#349 Agent Spriggan Ominae

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 10:49 AM

How is it stupid that world peace revolves around poker but not bacarat?

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From what I know of the book Le Chiffre stolen union funds. That money was not for warfare but for trade, communist political parties and workers salaries. The money he plays baccarat for meant a lot to Russians when converted from francs to rubles.

From the IGN report the plot hole is much bigger. Le Chiffre is funding terrorism with poker. Pretty [censored]ing stupid story as terrorism is funded by a much bigger trade in human trafficking, arms, drugs, stock markets, money laundering etc worth BILLIONS. Poker for any small number of millions is a piss.

And we know from the majority of suicide bombers that they do not have money and are willing to do for only a believe because they think their reward is after death.

The casino could easily rig the card deck or ban Le Chiffre from playing if he's a terrorist. It's so silly.

The whole idea of Casino Royale could been fixed but they made the holes even bigger and unrealistic. I am very angry they still keep a very good thriller away from the public!!!!!!

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There is alot wrong in what you say. You are over looking a major detail from the novel that should translate to this film. Le Chiffre is not just playong for the money, he's playing for his life. Sure a million is a drop in the bucket compared to the billions that these terror organizations have at there control but a million bucks is more than needed to fund a terror cell capable of pulling off an attack on the scale of 9/11. Le Chiffre is supposed to be the caretaker of these funds, which may be as little as a million or two. The thing is he gets greedy and invests the money in a scheme(brothels in the novel) to inrich himself and still provide the funds. Well things don't go as planned and he winds up with zip. Hence it couls make sense that he would try to recoup the funds at a high stakes poker game. It doesn't matter how much money he lost, it could be a billion or maybe only a thousand. The fact that he is monkeying around with funds that aren't his would mark him for death by those who it belongs too. I assume Le Chiffre would very much value his life. And you say that they should just say that they should jsut alert the casino the Le Chiffre is a terrorist. Wellwe don't know all the deatils about who this Le Chiffre is, he could have some very sensitive dipolmatic ties. And also look at the mission in the novel. MI6 specifically wants Le Chiffre exsposed to his superiors and killed by his own. If they were to arrest him or kill him he wouls be made a martyr, something thats even more relevent today seeing that they are dealing with terrorisits. The mission is not just to eliminate Le Chiffre but to do it in a way that would humiliate both him and his organization.

#350 SteveKingCool

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 12:07 PM

The mission is not just to eliminate Le Chiffre but to do it in a way that would humiliate both him and his organization.

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Read the script article.

It's a dumb mission. Poker for $10 millions to stop suicide bombers. It's not the same story as the Fleming one. It is a very dumb idea. Suicide bombers don't need 10 millions to blow themselves up. Then Bond gets philosophical "I can't stop all suicide bombers but I can stop a few"

That is dumb. You can't stop any mad people who believe in paradise rewards unless you prove the idea of paradise is dumb. That is not the job of the secret service to take government money and play poker with it. It is the job of academia to to stop religious fundamentalism and the job of global economics to create harmony and development.

It is a dumb plot.

#351 Agent Spriggan Ominae

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 12:45 PM

The mission is not just to eliminate Le Chiffre but to do it in a way that would humiliate both him and his organization.

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Read the script article.

It's a dumb mission. Poker for $10 millions to stop suicide bombers. It's not the same story as the Fleming one. It is a very dumb idea. Suicide bombers don't need 10 millions to blow themselves up. Then Bond gets philosophical "I can't stop all suicide bombers but I can stop a few"

That is dumb. You can't stop any mad people who believe in paradise rewards unless you prove the idea of paradise is dumb. That is not the job of the secret service to take government money and play poker with it. It is the job of academia to to stop religious fundamentalism and the job of global economics to create harmony and development.

It is a dumb plot.

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Well first off the $10 million is just Bond's stake in the game so it's probably alot more than 10 million at stake if Le Chiffre wins. And you say Suicide bombers don't need $10 million to blow themselves up which in a way is true but many do need funding to get to that point. Look at it this way, if an operation on the scale of 9/11 was funded for under a million than imagine the scale and size and sheer number of attacks that 10 million + could fund. You say read the script article, which I've done long ago, yet it's based off only "8" pages of script which Stax points out. There is alot of material we haven't heard about and alot of possibilties for the story like some I have illustrated.

#352 SteveKingCool

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 01:22 PM


It is a dumb plot.

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Well first off the $10 million is just Bond's stake in the gamematerial we haven't heard about and alot of possibilties for the story like some I have illustrated.

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Dumb story. Government giving millions to agents to play gambling. Dumb dumb dumb.

#353 Fro

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 05:56 PM

It can be very classy... you just stick it at a private table in a gorgeous room, everyone's in tuxes, and have some workers (preferably gorgeous women) waiting on everyone hand and foot.

It'll work out, and the stakes aren't that ridiclous compared to some of the private games that go on in Vegas, actually.

#354 ACE

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 05:59 PM

Dumb story. Government giving millions to agents to play gambling. Dumb dumb dumb.

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Someone obviously doesn't know about the plot to Casino Royale. Dumb, dumb, dumb!

#355 Thom Paine

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:55 PM

I too would prefer to see Baccarat. What most of us are accustomed to nowadays is mini-baccarat. Where the players play against the house, Baccarat is about a group of players playing against one other player who gets to be the banker.

Poker seems a little out of line for the location of the casino, and could you imagine Bond sitting at the table with dark terminator sunglasses and a ballcap pulled down low over his face?

Oh well, since I'm not the producer, there is nothing that I can do. I think with the extra year that they have had, they could have wrote a better script.

#356 marktmurphy

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:58 PM

they could have wrote a better script.


Oh, the irony!

#357 Dr. Noah

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 04:17 AM

I too would prefer to see Baccarat. What most of us are accustomed to nowadays is mini-baccarat. Where the players play against the house, Baccarat is about a group of players playing against one other player who gets to be the banker.

Poker seems a little out of line for the location of the casino, and could you imagine Bond sitting at the table with dark terminator sunglasses and a ballcap pulled down low over his face?

Oh well, since I'm not the producer, there is nothing that I can do. I think with the extra year that they have had, they could have wrote a better script.


A lot of people think that using poker is bowing to current fashion (which I'm sure it is), but I think there's another reason, too:

The screenwriters probably play poker a lot more (and better) than Baccarat, and therefore can do more with it in the story.

When Bond played Baccarat id films like GE, they didn't even show the cards. You can't get away with that when the game is so integral to the plot. The writers probably felt more comfortable using a game they knew well.

Edited by Dr. Noah, 16 March 2006 - 04:19 AM.


#358 JimmyBond

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 05:16 PM


It is a dumb plot.

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Well first off the $10 million is just Bond's stake in the gamematerial we haven't heard about and alot of possibilties for the story like some I have illustrated.

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Dumb story. Government giving millions to agents to play gambling. Dumb dumb dumb.


Have you even read the book?

#359 Mister Asterix

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 07:22 PM

People should check out the movie The Cincinatti Kid to see how great a poker showdown can be. Steve McQueen takes on Edward G Robison.

#360 Andrew

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:14 PM

People should check out the movie The Cincinatti Kid to see how great a poker showdown can be. Steve McQueen takes on Edward G Robison.


I would also reccomend Rounders starring Jason Bourne himself, Matt Damon.