1519 replies to this topic

[crashdrive]

You're right. Two years ago, when announcements from the EON front about 'DAD' frequently hit the newsstands, I also used to post a lot of messages here and at the 007forever messageboards. But after a while I tuned out. I have a feeling this will happen again after EON makes the announcement who will direct 'Bond 21'. The casting of the sixth Bond is too many years away to discuss already. I mean, what else is there to discuss? I don't even remember reading the last new original candidate for the part. We're stuck with the same old candidates we are looking at for four years now. Untill we get a new name into the mix, I think this topic is getting tired. The way I see it, Hugh Jackman is the fans choice and the most likely choice to get the part. Anyone care to disagree?

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by crashdrive
You're right. Two years ago, when announcements from the EON front about 'DAD' frequently hit the newsstands, I also used to post a lot of messages here and at the 007forever messageboards. But after a while I tuned out. I have a feeling this will happen again after EON makes the announcement who will direct 'Bond 21'. The casting of the sixth Bond is too many years away to discuss already. I mean, what else is there to discuss? I don't even remember reading the last new original candidate for the part. We're stuck with the same old candidates we are looking at for four years now. Untill we get a new name into the mix, I think this topic is getting tired. The way I see it, Hugh Jackman is the fans choice and the most likely choice to get the part. Anyone care to disagree?

Loved the last part of your post . Let's just wait and see who it will be . Like i said someone might come out of nowhere . And like every one since Connery lelf for good in 1971 . That person will be just right for the role. We might not agree on the finer poiints about Bond . Such as Director , Screenwriters , Music . But i will admit that EON /Broccoli /Wilson will make the best choice possible . Since so much is riding on Bond . MGM will likely put in it's 2 cents.

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by crashdrive
You've got my blessing. :cool:

How gracious of you. Never knew it was required.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by crashdrive
You're right. Two years ago, when announcements from the EON front about 'DAD' frequently hit the newsstands, I also used to post a lot of messages here and at the 007forever messageboards. But after a while I tuned out. I have a feeling this will happen again after EON makes the announcement who will direct 'Bond 21'. The casting of the sixth Bond is too many years away to discuss already. I mean, what else is there to discuss?  

Hmmm.... I guess you could always get into Raymond Benson or collecting soundtracks, crashdrive. I've noticed you hardly ever post on subjects other than the next James Bond and the next Bond film director. Is that all you're interested in? Fair enough if it is, obviously (one's interests are one's own business), but there IS plenty more about Bond to discuss.

[crashdrive]

Originally posted by Roebuck
Never knew it was required.

Oh I'm sorry, my mistake. I figured that was the reason you were trying to convice me

And yes, Loomis, apart from directors and Bond actors, I hardly discuss other topics. I never read the non-Fleming books or write my own fan-fiction. I don't see the point really. A friend of mine just got word from EON they don't accept scripts. It's impossible to predict who will be cast as the next villain or what kind of villain he will be. I don't listen to Bond soundtracks. There are thousand different artists who could do a Bond title song so I wouldn't even know where to begin. I could discuss old Bond films and why I like or dislike them, but again people have their own taste. What I like about the topics directors and Bond actors is that the choices are indeed very limited and that there are clear rules. Most of these rules are not known to people so you can discuss and inform at the same time. It's easier to keep all options open if the options are limited

[Monique]

Originally posted by crashdrive

And you really could live with a coloured James Bond? I'm surprised. Personally, I could never accept it. Why cast a coloured actor if there are more than enough suitable caucasian actors?

No more surprised than me when I read your post. First of all the word "colored" is not used in this day and age. It is considered flammatory since it and was used in the old south many years ago, and is not appreciated by African Americans today. But I can't imagine why you couldn't live with a Black actor. Why not? Black actors feel the same way you do. Only in reverse. They don't understand why so many white actors get roles that they qualify for when there are so many talented ones available. Something to think about.

I for one could not live with Sharon Stone as Bond. Thank God that never came into fruition. And not because she's a woman, or because of her skin color. I just can't stand her.

I still think the next perfect Bond is out there somewhere, we just haven't discovered him yet.

[crashdrive]

It was not my intention to put down or discriminate by using the therm 'coloured'. I know the p.c. therm in America is 'African Americans', but how does this translate to the U.K.? 'African Englishmen'? Excuse my ignorance, English is not my native language. I'm learning as I go along.

And why I could not live with a black actor? Because I have a very specific image in my head of Bond. I did not even like Roger Moore, because he did not fit that image (not tough enough and too posh), so a black actor would most definately not fit my perception. I just would not be able to connect with a black actor as easy as I would with a caucasian actor. Of course this is my humble opinion, but I'm sure a lot of fans feel the same way. Colin Salmon did not receive a lot of votes as you can see. That must tell you something. And are there really that many talented black actors out there? I know a lot of great actors and quite a few are indeed black (or African American), but they are still very much a minority. They should ask themselves, why do we always see the same small group of black actors (Sam Jackson, Denzil, Will Smith) play all the good parts in Hollywood, when there are enough talented actors like Dennis Haysbert, Harry J. Lennix & Taye Diggs, who could just as easily become stars. Hollywood should broaden their horizons a little bit.

[Loomis]

I agree entirely with crashdrive. Not wanting a black actor to play James Bond does not mean that one is a racist. And, Monique, I'm sure that crashdrive does not need you to tell him that "Black actors feel the same way you do. Only in reverse. They don't understand why so many white actors get roles that they qualify for when there are so many talented ones available. Something to think about." Unless you think he's a Nazi, of course.

I wouldn't want a Briton of Chinese descent to play Bond. Does that make me anti-Chinese? They couldn't just cast a non-white actor as 007 after 50 years of the character, in all the different novels, stories and films, being white. It would look like they were Making A Statement. If Colin Salmon were to be cast as Bond, his race would overshadow everything. Reporters would ceaselessly ask him what it was like to be the first black Bond. Similarly, trying to market Rupert Everett as Bond would be more trouble than it would be worth because everyone would be interested only in discussing his being the first gay Bond.

[crashdrive]

Thanks for the support. I'm really not a nazi you know

[Loomis]

It's cool, crashdrive. If members are going to assault each other for holding politically incorrect views, I do think they at least need some evidence to go on.

And, like yourself, I also think that the discussion of the next James Bond ought to be kept within sensible limits. If we're going to discuss Colin Salmon's chances of assuming the role, why don't we consider people like Art Malik, or maybe younger Anglo-Asian actors such as Naveen (ROLLERBALL) Andrews and Sanjeev Bhaskar? Someone recently suggested the Israeli actor Oded Fehr as a potential 007. Trouble is, he simply looks too ethnic for the role. I'm sure that The Powers That Be at EON would say the same thing about someone like Fehr. Debbie McWilliams and the other casting people on the Bond films are interested in getting the right actor for Bond, not in striking a blow for actors representing ethnic minorities.

I mean, how about Morgan Freeman as Bond? He'd be a non-ageist, non-nationalistic and non-racist choice! He's a great actor, too! You think he'd be unable to act the secret agent?

Or perhaps not. As Mister Asterix put it on another thread, a black Bond would be fine as long as someone like Seth Green could be considered to play John Shaft.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Monique


No more surprised than me when I read your post.  First of all the word "colored" is not used in this day and age. It is considered flammatory since it and was used in the old south many years ago, and is not appreciated by African Americans today.  But I can't imagine why you couldn't live with a Black actor.  Why not?  Black actors feel the same way you do.  Only in reverse.  They don't understand why so many white actors get roles that they qualify for when there are so many talented ones available.  Something to think about.

I for one could not live with Sharon Stone as Bond.  Thank God that never came into fruition. And not because she's a woman, or because of her skin color. I just can't stand her.

I still think the next perfect Bond is out there somewhere, we just haven't discovered him yet.

Thank you Monique, you vocalized what I was thinking.....

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Loomis

I mean, how about Morgan Freeman as Bond? He'd be a non-ageist, non-nationalistic and non-racist choice! He's a great actor, too! You think he'd be unable to act the secret agent?  

I think this is an excellent choice for Bond.

[Loomis]

Yeah, Freeman might be good. Or maybe James Earl Jones.

[crashdrive]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
I think this is an excellent choice for Bond.

And you expect us to take you seriously after a comment like that? You obviously haven't got a clue what the character Bond is about and I'd be surprised if you are really a fan. But of course it is April fools

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by crashdrive

And you expect us to take you seriously after a comment like that? You obviously haven't got a clue what the character Bond is about and I'd be surprised if you are really a fan. But of course it is April fools

Remember Brosnan has put forth the name of Colin Salmon . As Bond when he leaves .

[Loomis]

Then Brosnan is a fool.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by crashdrive

And you expect us to take you seriously after a comment like that? You obviously haven't got a clue what the character Bond is about and I'd be surprised if you are really a fan. But of course it is April fools

Not in the US, its still March here.
What have you got against Black people???

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
Remember Brosnan has put forth the name of Colin Salmon . As Bond when he leaves .

Yeah, I heard that also...Shows that Brosnan has good taste, my respect for him has just increased...

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by crashdrive
And you expect us to take you seriously after a comment like that? You obviously haven't got a clue what the character Bond is about and I'd be surprised if you are really a fan. But of course it is April fools

Which Bond would that be exactly? If we're talking about Fleming's public school drop out with his 'End of Empire' sensibilities then he probably should be played by a caucasian actor. But the non-smoking, wise-cracking, invisible car driving Bond of the Brosnan era? The guy who works for a woman who needs a drop of the hard stuff just to get her through a mission briefing? He's an EON construct with most of his less engaging personality traits ironed out to make him fit for family viewing. Certainly his connection to the Bond of the original novels is minimal.
There is nothing in the character of the present movie Bond to indicates he must be portrayed by a white guy. Brosnan (far from being an 'idiot') understands that. Skin colour really has little bearing on selecting the ideal Bond.

[marktmurphy]

Has nobody noticed that Colin Salmon isn't that good an actor? He's very stilted in everything I've seen him in- doesn't seem to be able to cope with contractions.

How about a black, disabled, single-parent lesbian for the role?

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Roebuck

There is nothing in the character of the present movie Bond to indicates he must be portrayed by a white guy. Brosnan (far from being an 'idiot') understands that. Skin colour really has little bearing on selecting the ideal Bond.  

The cinematic Bond began to veer away from Fleming during the Connery era, not just with "the non-smoking, wise-cracking, invisible car driving Bond of the Brosnan era". Moore eschewed cigarettes and cracked wise, and while he didn't drive an invisible car (not one that I could see, anyway, heh heh), he made up for it in the silliness stakes by whizzing around in a space shuttle.

Yet despite the fact that "Fleming's public school drop out with his 'End of Empire' sensibilities" has rarely been glimpsed onscreen, all five of the actors to have played 007 in the EON film series are white. Clearly, the EON people have since the 1960s been following discriminatory hiring practices. Perhaps, Roebuck, we should refer this matter to the Commission for Racial Equality?

[crashdrive]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
What have you got against Black people???

DLibrasnow, you are really pushing it. Just because you can't put weight to your argument does not mean I am a racist. Please do us all a favor and just quit this discussion. It's the most pointless discussion I've had since I started posting here. And the most irritating. This is the last time I will address this issue so don't even try drag me back in.

Now onto genuine interesting discussion, in another thread Bale was quoted saying that;
" James Bond is every British actor's Holy Grail in many ways - the most recognized British character on the big screen(...) I'd love to do (the) part but I'd also worry about being typecast. James Bond in the new Millennium has so much potential - in the new movie XXX, the Bond character is skewered as being out of step for our times - Bond is in dire need of updating(.)"

How do you feel about the possibility that Bale might replace Brosnan? He fits the profile, will be 35 when Brosnan will probably step down (2009) and has the star power and the looks audiences may demand after Brosnan. Do you think Christian Bale could be a suitable and an acceptable candidate for the part?

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by Loomis
The cinematic Bond began to veer away from Fleming during the Connery era, not just with "the non-smoking, wise-cracking, invisible car driving Bond of the Brosnan era"....all five of the actors to have played 007 in the EON film series are white.

Glad you see my point Loomis. He really isn't the same character Fleming envisioned half a century back. Bond and the attitudes surrounding him have been made to adapt to changing times

In the seventies EON shied away from casting a black actress as Solitaire in LALD. Now Halle Berry's name shares the spotlight with Brosnan's on the advertising for DAD. In the eighties it was never mooted that a woman should fill the role of 'M' after the death of Bernard Lee. There's even been recent talk that a (shock horror) American director could be considered to helm a Bond movie.

This much is certain. For 007 to survive another decade at the cinema -or another forty years- there will be significant changes that will sometimes be at odds with the prejudices (preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience) of hardcore fans

[Loomis]

Originally posted by crashdrive

How do you feel about the possibility that Bale might replace Brosnan? He fits the profile, will be 35 when Brosnan will probably step down (2009) and has the star power and the looks audiences may demand after Brosnan. Do you think Christian Bale could be a suitable and an acceptable candidate for the part?  

He wouldn't be my preferred choice. I think he'd be wasted doing Bond. Not that Bond is slumming it, exactly, and I'm aware that Bond is in many ways one of the most difficult roles out there, but I get the feeling that Bale's talents would be better employed elsewhere, in much the same way that, IMHO, someone like Gary Oldman wouldn't make a suitable 007.

Originally posted by Roebuck

For 007 to survive another decade at the cinema -or another forty years- there will be significant changes that will sometimes be at odds with the prejudices (preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience) of hardcore fans

I know what the word "prejudices" means, Roebuck, but thanks for providing me with a definition. As I tried to make clear in my above post, The Powers That Be at EON are evidently the ones with prejudices, since for more than 40 years they have never failed to cast a white actor as Bond. The hardcore fans (i.e. thee and me) are not responsible for hiring and firing (if it were up to me, the American director John McTiernan would be yelling "Action!" and "Cut!" on BOND 21, and Art Malik would be playing M).

That being the case, Roebuck, I take it you'll be contacting the Commission for Racial Equality on this matter, and won't be watching the Bond films or spending money on anything Bond-related until this disgraceful situation is resolved?

BTW, why can't Bond be bisexual from BOND 21 onwards? Let's purge the series of its inherent homophobia. It would be so much more interesting if 007 had an eye for the boys as well as the girls.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by crashdrive

DLibrasnow, you are really pushing it. Just because you can't put weight to your argument does not mean I am a racist.

Well I thought the "April Fool" jab was "Pushing it". But, I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that Bond could not be played by a black actor. One actor I think could pull off the role is Denzel Washington, I think he would make an excellent 007.
Reminds me of Robin Williams standup comedy routine regarding Tiger Woods:
"How did he learn to play? We wouldn't let him join the club."

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by Loomis
I know what the word "prejudices" means, Roebuck, but thanks for providing me with a definition.

Added that to avoid future misunderstanding.
Just wanted it clear I wasn't accusing anyone of racism.

Sorry to see you've once more reverted to form Loomis, resorting to feeble attempts at sarcasm when rational argument deserts you.
It really isn't very entertaining.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Loomis
(if it were up to me, the American director John McTiernan would be yelling "Action!" and "Cut!" on BOND 21, and Art Malik would be playing M).

One would hope that McTiernan would give us a "Thomas Crown Affair" or "Die Hard" rather than "Nomads" (with Pierce Brosnan) or "The 13th Warrior"....
Am I the only one who cannot fathom how the same director can produce both two of the best , and two of the worst movies in history...

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

One would hope that McTiernan would give us a "Thomas Crown Affair" or "Die Hard" rather than "Nomads" (with Pierce Brosnan) or "The 13th Warrior"....
Am I the only one who cannot fathom how the same director can produce both two of the best , and two of the worst movies in history...

I was discussing that with crashdrive and kevrichardson on another thread. It seems to me that McTiernan's reputation is based entirely on just three films: PREDATOR, DIE HARD and THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER, and especially on DIE HARD. All of those films were made way back in the 1980s. It looks like his new film, BASIC, is every bit as much of a turkey as ROLLERBALL.

McTiernan is now in dire need of a hit. Perhaps he'll make another DIE HARD sequel, as he did when his career was previously on the ropes following LAST ACTION HERO. But although he seems to be going through another rough patch, McTiernan has shown often enough that he can make movies of quality (most recently with THE THOMAS CROWN AFFAIR), and all told he's made more good ones than bad, even though the three films that really stake a claim for his being a top director were made well over a decade ago.

Hopefully, things will work out for McTiernan the way they did for Ridley Scott, who's in some ways a fairly similar director. After THELMA & LOUISE, Scott had a run of bad luck with 1492: CONQUEST OF PARADISE, WHITE SQUALL and G.I. JANE. And then he made GLADIATOR, following it with HANNIBAL and BLACK HAWK DOWN, and was once again one of the world's top directors. I hope McTiernan's GLADIATOR is just around the corner, since I'm a fan of his and am disappointed that his most recent work has been sub-par (and I don't lay the blame for that entirely at McTiernan's door, as filmmaking is always a collaborative effort).

Originally posted by Roebuck

Added that to avoid future misunderstanding.
Just wanted it clear I wasn't accusing anyone of racism.

Sorry to see you've once more reverted to form Loomis, resorting to feeble attempts at sarcasm when rational argument deserts you.
It really isn't very entertaining.  

Temper, Roebuck. Let's try and keep the discussion going without getting nasty, shall we? When you accuse other people of giving up "rational argument", it suggests to me that you've given it up yourself and are resorting to insults.

You wrote: "There is nothing in the character of the present movie Bond to indicates he must be portrayed by a white guy. Brosnan (far from being an 'idiot') understands that. Skin colour really has little bearing on selecting the ideal Bond."

In that case, what is Brosnan doing playing Bond? If he's such a clued-up, stand-up guy, why didn't he refuse the role so that an actor from the ethnic minorities could have had it? There is EVERYTHING in the role to suggest that 007 is, always was, and always should be white. James Bond is not some new thing. We're talking about 50 years of fiction and 40 of films. In which he was white every time out.

The only way we can suggest that Bond could in the future be anything other than white is if we buy into the idea that all the films, novels and short stories are not necessarily about the same person, but about the name James Bond and the number 007 being bestowed on numerous agents. If that's the case, then you're right: we can have black Bonds, Jewish Bonds, gay Bonds.... I won't argue. But I and most other fans believe that - in spite of all believable continuity in the series having long since gone out of the window - James Bond is always meant to be one and the same guy (it's called suspension of disbelief). If not, what is Moore's Bond doing at the grave of Tracy, who was married to Lazenby's Bond? Did Connery's Bond retire after YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, to be replaced by Lazenby's Bond for one mission only, before returning to solve the crimes of DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER? Are we supposed to think that Moore's Bond is retired and still living happily in San Francisco with Stacey Sutton? And what was Dalton's Bond up to while his successor, Brosnan's Bond, was stuck in captivity in North Korea?

You want to buy into the "multiple Bond" theory? Fine. Well, excuse me if I don't, and if I prefer to believe that Bond is and must remain a white guy.

BTW, Roebuck, please define "sarcasm" for me. I'm not sure what it means.

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by Loomis
BTW, Roebuck, please define "sarcasm" for me. I'm not sure what it means.

Explains why you're not very good at it.

OK, let's use your example of a bi-sexual 007. Bond was conceived as a fantasy figure for heterosexual males (primarily Fleming himself). To portray him as other than heterosexual would be to change a defining element of the character. Now would you demonstrate having Bond played by an actor of Aisin or Afro-Caribbean origin would be at odds with the character as currently depicted in the movie series? All I hear from you is this 'he's white because he's always been white' nonsense.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Roebuck

Now would you demonstrate having Bond played by an actor of Aisin or Afro-Caribbean origin would be at odds with the character as currently depicted in the movie series?

The character as currently depicted in the movie series is an upper-middle-class guy who is more or less at the top of the tree in the society he comes from. He belongs to the racial mainstream, and has therefore never been obliged to deal with prejudice based on the colour of his skin while making his way in that society. All people of black or Asian origin in Britain and other predominantly white societies are faced throughout their lives, to a greater or lesser extent, with the evil of racial prejudice. Even millionaire black footballers have to cope with racist chants, just as much as the poor Asian kid on a council estate walking past a bunch of skinheads.

Now, the character of Bond as he currently stands in the film series (and as he has always been) has always lived a life free of being on the receiving end of racial prejudice. I don't believe you could cast, say, Colin Salmon as Bond and pretend that the character's skin colour wouldn't to some extent be an issue. And if you do believe that, you're living in an idealistic world, not the real world.

Let's say the script made a few relatively low-key references to Salmon's Bond being black. Maybe a villain tries to taunt him with the "n" word, or perhaps one of the Bond girls quips: "I hear that once you've tried black you never go back." Well, that would be changing the character, in my book, by acknowledging him as to some degree an outsider. Worse, it would look like the filmmakers were Making A Statement.

The only other approach would be to have a script that made no reference whatsoever to Salmon's Bond's ethnicity, but, again, that would look like the film was Making A Statement, or that, instead of making too big a deal of Bond's ethnicity, this black 007 was an Uncle Tom or "acting white". It would be a Catch-22 situation, and the character of Bond would be changed, if only slightly or implicitly. Like it or not, a black or Asian Bond would automatically become something of a poster boy for race relations, and I don't believe the Bond series should be a vehicle for weighty issues.

And then what would happen once Salmon stepped down and the filmmakers were seeking a replacement? Would there be pressure to cast another black actor in order to quash suspicions that the casting of Salmon had been in some way tokenistic, or that a black Bond had been a failed experiment? Would there be pressure for Salmon to be succeeded by an Anglo-Chinese Bond, maybe a Bond of different ethnic origin every time out?

Originally posted by Roebuck

All I hear from you is this 'he's white because he's always been white' nonsense.  

Well, frankly, that's good enough for me. It's called continuity, and I do believe that the 50-year-old Bond phenomenon has established firm continuity regarding the character's racial origin. To say that M is a woman when M used to be a man is a red herring, as the character Judi Dench plays is not supposed to be the same person who was played by Bernard Lee and Robert Brown.

Anyway, I look forward to your doubtless insulting response.