151 replies to this topic

[Red Widow Dawn]

Yes, please calm down. I've been as civil as possible.

Rollerball has 7 reviews. Remember what I said about small portions of reviews not being representative? Mathematicians call it the Law of Averages.

DAD, on the other hand, has 200 or so.

And with that, I'm leaving this topic. Everyone here is so touchy about personal opinions.

[Xenobia]

It's not that we are touchy with personal opinions. It's when other opinions do not get respected, or when folks that do know what they are talking about...yourself, Zencat, and Dlibrasnow for example...feel like they are not being listened to, things get testy.

Don't leave the thread Red Dawn, just understand that the voice of the people is a broad idea, and can mean many things.

-- Xenobia

[zencat]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn
Yes, please calm down.  I've been as civil as possible.

...

And with that, I'm leaving this topic.  Everyone here is so touchy about personal opinions.

Civil? You should go back and read your original post, RWD. You insulted those of us who liked DAD ("the types that laugh with delight when they see squirrels outside their windows"), called us "frivolous," then you asked for "comments" or "flames." You got what you asked for.

I wanted to close this thread as soon as you posted it because I saw it

[Blue Eyes]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn
*sigh*  Back to the coal mines again.

Oh you're off to a brilliant start I must say. It must be so tortuos to find that people don't agree with you. Seems that you're leaving this thread because of people who are touchy about opinions, people such as yourself.

Yes.  I noticed the corrupt heads of state.  I also noticed that they've never been used as a Bond villain until Die Another Day.  Bureaucracy bores me so.

Well I'm very glad to hear that. They haven't used it before? Well that must be a failing for the film. So sorry to hear that 'Bureaucracy' bores you - you must hate the real world.

[zencat]

Corrupt heads of state have never been used as villians in a Bond film before???? I think you need to rewatch Octopussy (Orlov), The Living Daylights (Koskov), From Russia With Love (Klebb), Live & Let Die (Kananga), Licence To Kill (El Presidente), Tomorrow Never Dies (General Chang), and GoldenEye (Gen. Ourumov).

I think you need to bone up on your subject, RWD, before you tell us what Bond films are all about.

[Blue Eyes]

And there we have it

[zencat]

That's blood from the torso.

[Morton Slumber]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn


Elektra - her mother's affairs ruined her father; her mother and M also refused to pay her ransom

Has he seen TWINE?

Loomis, is this the bit you thought was "brilliantly" explained?

sarcasm?

[Sir James]

I also thought DAD was the best bond film, and movie, ever. It capitalized on all the things Brosnan has wanted to bring to the role, the Fleming like characterizartion with all the modern hallmarks. TWINE also competes for the number one title too. Besides what do you care if everyone loved or hated DAD? the only thing that should matter is what you think. I mean I could eaisly make the generalization about the kind of people that love Goldfinger, the casual fan, who does not know much about the series and just wants to take the popular choice. Generlzations, and sterotypes like this are everywhere, the true, objective fan avoids them.

[iceberg]

For the record, MrMoon, I also found Moon/Graves intriguing. Liked the whole bit of him being let down by his father in the end. And his subsequent retribution. So, no, you're not wrong about Graves. It's just that he was probably the best developed character in DAD.

Zao, however.... once you get past his atypical appearance (expensive acne, ghostly-blue eyes, etc.) is really just a typical henchman.

However, I should stress again that this is all just my opinion. Doesn't make it wrong or right. Just mine.

All in all, DAD was a great ride. Just liked the depth (for a Bond film) of TWINE more.


Ciao....

[Red Widow Dawn]

After my initial post, which was set in a humourous tone, I've been told that I'm "closed-minded", "not a real Bond fan", gotten nothing but rudeness from Dykes and Mr. Moon (administrators should know better), and received agitated and jittery responses from you, Zencat.

It seems the nicer I try to be, the more people jump on me.

No, Xenobia. You can only ask your forum members to put up with so much.

[mrmoon]

I think you'll find myself and Daniel were only defending our opinions and in some cases fact, we were never rude - it may seem that way as it is an opposing opinion but there's no need to spit your dummy out over an opinion.

The fact of the matter is your accusations seemed baseless and that is why people have responded in the way they have, I was particularly bewildered with your comment about Die Another Day being shunned by the public - and Zencat defended the fact that you were talking complete nonsense. The fact that you do not like Die Another Day does not mean all Bond fans hate it, you speak of the faultless Goldfinger and then say I am wrong for calling you closed-minded, I'm afraid not.

Thirdly - you can't expect to come to a James Bond forum and shun Die Another Day as if it were some wannabe Bond film, you are inevitably going to be flamed - and you knew it. As Zencat says you may want to study your subject a little more indepth before making such controversial statements, back it up with fact and people will be much more willing to accept, back it up with controversy for the sake of it and your a sitting duck.

[Red Widow Dawn]

Very well. We'll start again. Here is my thesis:

Die Another Day was a critical failure. This can be seen by observing large movie review archives, one of which is www.rottentomatoes.com . (Zencat's point about Rollerball is moot, for the reasons I explained). Please do not argue against this, if you aren't willing to go to the site and read the reviews. It's pretty much a fact.

Now then...it cannot be said that reviewers only like "artsy" movies, which one person claimed. GoldenEye was a huge critical success, and was far from an "artsy" movie. Therefore, this notion is false.

The fans, though split on whether DAD was good or bad, seem to have a slightly higher number of individuals who claim DAD is #1.

Please notice that not once have I said that DAD was a bad movie. You can ever go over my posts again to see. Interesting, isn't it? Perhaps you jumped to conclusions? My problem is not with people who like DAD, but with people who claim DAD is the best Bond movie ever.

Opinion can only go so far. If I said I enjoyed the taste of tree bark, you'd attribute this to something being wrong with me, rather than personal opinion. (At least, I hope you would.) This is the same case here.

Numerous people have pointed out that other Bond movies are faultless/near-faultless. I'd like to know why people have passed up films like Goldfinger, which most people view as the greatest Bond movie, in favour of DAD.

Now, without flaming me, please explain the descrepancy between critics and Bond fans.

Oh, and the next person who claims I know nothing about James Bond will have accepted a 007 trivia duel. I'm not joking. I will beat you in front of everyone. :cool:

[zencat]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn
...(Zencat's point about Rollerball is moot, for the reasons I explained)....

Ummm...that was just a joke, Red Widow.

[Red Widow Dawn]

Yes, Zenny, but you implied that RT is faulty, because it gave Rollerball a high rating. It's not.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn
Oh, and the next person who claims I know nothing about James Bond will have accepted a 007 trivia duel.  I'm not joking.  I will beat you in front of everyone. :cool:

Oh, Red Widow. I like you. But this statement reminds me of something funny that just happened the other week. I've always considered myself a Bond expert, but the other day I was in a sort of James Bond trivia contest and I missed what was an easy question. I just froze up and went blank. I felt humiliated in front of my fellow Bond fans. But later my girlfriend said to me she was so happy I missed it. Why? Because she really didn't want to be there on the arm of a swaggering champion of the nerds. I realized then and there that, as much as the fourteen-year-old in me wants to prove I'm a man by besting all the other fourteen-year-olds...the adult in me knows that not knowing everything about James Bond is really not the worse thing in the world. In fact, I think I need to cultivate my ignorance a bit more.

So the crown in yours, Red Widow.

[Red Widow Dawn]

I never claimed to know everything about James Bond. However, you said:

"I think you need to bone up on your subject, RWD, before you tell us what Bond films are all about."

So which is it, Zencat? Do I know too much or too little about 007? :eek:

But I desist. You're avoiding the topic.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn
So which is it, Zencat?  Do I know too much or too little about 007?  :eek:

I'd say you know just enough to be opinionated and arrogant. But I'm the same way, so...I'm happy to call it a draw.

[Red Widow Dawn]

Very well.

[Blue Eyes]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn  
please explain the descrepancy between critics and Bond fans

I'd ask two things.
1) Do the public actually care what reviewers say of a film?
2) Do reviewers get more publicity, exposure, and eventually money, for panning what will inevitably be a successful film?

I'd answer;
1) No
2) Yes

And in the end these so called reviewers (I can't recall the old adage, failed actors or something?) have nothing to do with a generalisation of people who enjoy the film as squirrel lovers or whatever rubbish was put forward.

[zencat]

I would add, Blue Eyes...

1. Do reviews determine the success of a film? Do reviews reflect what the public thinks of a film?

One only has to look at TITANIC for the answer. That film, by in large, did not receive kind reviews. By RWD's measure, that would mean the films was "shunned by the public."

Oh, but that's right, by "public" he means "critics", and by "critics" he means whatever that silly Rotten Tomatos website decides to post (the very name of that site should give you an insite into their point of view on movies). And just look at some of those "critics" who speak for the "public" on that site:

-- Rob Blackwelder, SPLICEDWIRE,
-- Gary Brown, HOUSTON COMMUNITY NEWSPAPERS,
-- Matt Brunson, CREATIVE LOAFING,
-- Larry Carroll, COUNTINGDOWN.COM
-- Walter Chaw, FILM FREAK CENTRAL
-- Robin Clifford, REELING REVIEWS
-- Linda Cook, QUAD CITY TIMES (DAVENPORT, IA)

Who the hell??? I don't know about you, but I don't weant to be represented by the reviewer for "CREATIVE LOAFING".

[Felix's lighter]

Titanic didn't DESERVE any good reviews.

Wow, a girl gets laid in the back of a car. Talk about exciting romance; today's women are not as hard to please as I thought. My heart will go on, indeed...

Of course, if it had been an erotically aggressive encounter in a hayloft, well...

[Red Widow Dawn]

The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable. How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--indeed, clings to it all the harder?
--M. Lamar Keene

[zencat]

Did you get that from Rotten Tomatos.com too?

I'm kidding...kidding!

We love ya, RWD.

[Red Widow Dawn]

I suppose the truce is over, then.

I also noticed you quickly edited your post, after realizing what you had done.

Those reviews you posted agreed with ME, not YOU. They said that DAD was a good movie, but not the best. That is what *I* keep saying. Pity you're so stupid, Zencat.

[Red Widow Dawn]

Ah! You edited your post once again, Zencat!

[zencat]

I just moved my post into my orginal one above where it belonged. I didn't change it or omit any information.

Okay, RWD, when the name calling starts the thread is over. See ya.

[Red Widow Dawn]

Agreed. You should have followed your instincts.

I don't have have to put up with this at www.mi6.co.uk . Goodbye, everyone.

EDIT: (And you still cut out part of your post)

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn
After my initial post, which was set in a humourous tone, I've been told that I'm "closed-minded", "not a real Bond fan", gotten nothing but rudeness from Dykes and Mr. Moon (administrators should know better), and received agitated and jittery responses from you, Zencat.

It seems the nicer I try to be, the more people jump on me.

No, Xenobia.  You can only ask your forum members to put up with so much.

Put those claws back in and play nice with the rest of the kiddies RWD

[Red Widow Dawn]

Sorry, Libras.

But this isn't going to work out. Me and Zencat clearly don't get along.