151 replies to this topic

[Red Widow Dawn]

It seems to me...that the types of people who thought DAD was the best Bond movie ever...are the types that laugh with delight when they see squirrels outside their windows.

Not to be cruel or anything...but it seems that every time a new Bond movie rolls around, there's that same group of people that latches onto it merely because it's new. The frivolous type, I imagine.

Comments? Flames? :cool:

[Jim]

Blimey

[zencat]

What's your point of this thread, Red Widow? To insult people who liked DAD? To start an argument? This is really an ugly post.

[Evil Doctor Cheese]

Tee hee. I love squirrels. Didn't like DAD though. Tee hee. More posts about squirrels please!

* First post in ages spent on talking about squirrels!

[DLibrasnow]

I love DAD, hated TWINE

[Evil Doctor Cheese]

I backty fronty you Librasnow. Loved TWINE hated DAD. (The finale the damned finale? P*ssed the film down the pan! Why oh why?)

[mattbowyer]

zen somewhere buried beneath this ugly post, probably unintentionally, is a very good point.

I refer to my review of star wars earlier this year...

"Star Wars, Star Trek, Catholicism, James Bond : all entertainments that are followed religiously by those fans who create the hype that surrounds them. Many deny their obsession ... Could they handle it if the film was terrible? No, the obsession means they must, and shall, love it no matter what."

This does apply to Bond too, especially us CBN-ers. The tragedy of a truly awful bond film would be so great that I think it would be impossible for me too accept it. Certainly after my first viewing of DAD i felt this way, there was a nagging possibility in the back of my head that I was liking this awful film entirely because i had to. I've now seen it four times, and I adore it. And its genuine adoration, i'm sure of that.

[Red Widow Dawn]

No, Zencat. I just find it curious that people having forgotten 40 years of Bond movies, despite all the references.

[Evil Doctor Cheese]

I thought this thread was about squirrels... did I miss the point?

[Red Widow Dawn]

*slams his head against the wall*

Okay, this thread is done. Better take it out of the oven and let it sit.

[Xenobia]

No....this is thread is not done. It can continue, squirrels and all, just as long as no one gets flamed or offended.

Please see Jim's posts for how to be tastefully insulting. I recommend his review of DAD.

-- Xenobia

[DLibrasnow]

Tastefully insulting?? What's the fun in that?

[Red Widow Dawn]

So as I was saying...has everyone forgotten Goldfinger, Thunderball, The Spy Who Loved Me, and GoldenEye?

www.rottentomatoes.com , which archives many reviews, giving the best indication of what a "good" movie is, gives GoldenEye 95%, and 100% "Cream of the Crop".

Looking at Die Another Day, we see that it got 56% (I think), and 38% "Cream of the Crop".

Why the descrepancy between what regular people believe and Bond fans believe? The argument could be made that "Bond fans are more knowledgable, therefore they are right and everyone else is wrong", but that's making a foray into cult-like behaviour.

[terminus]

It seems to me...that the types of people who thought DAD was the best Bond movie ever

In my humble opinion, DAD is the best Bond movie for a long time. I'd put it up there with TSWLM and YOLT. It is a shining example of how a Bond movie should work ... as I said to friends, the movie goes back to the days of 'Bond is a superhero' rather than the 'Bond is human' plots of recent years. One of the things I disliked about TWINE, TND, GE and LTK was that they tried to humanise Bond - this should never have been done. As soon as we try to humanise him, he looses a lot of his appeal. DAD seemed to loose this humanisation and instead concentrated on combining the best bits of Bond ( action, girls, adventure and a rollicking good plot ) and actually managed to do it well.

are the types that laugh with delight when they see squirrels outside their windows.

Squirrels are only rats with good stylists. Besides, there just so funny hoppity hopping around. Oh wait, that's rabbits ... well, they're funny.

it seems that every time a new Bond movie rolls around, there's that same group of people that latches onto it merely because it's new. The frivolous type, I imagine.

I dested TWINE from my first viewing. It seemed to be too much focus on character and lacked a certain cohesion in set pieces. The logic of certain bits was enough to make the plot go awry and I do think that this ruined the adventure. I wasn't too keen on TND and GE lacked a certain je ne sais pas por qois ( that was so spelt wrong ). LTK is pants and TLD just isn't right, AVTAK is rather good, OP is cool, FYEO improves on repeated viewings, MK is ok but stupid, TSWLM is the epitomy of what a good Bond movie should be, TMWTGG is good but just doesn't seem to gel properly and LALD would've made more sense if Solitaire was black and Rosie Carver was white ... you get my drift ? It's not that I'll latch onto my favourites, it's just that my favourites have varied with how old I am ... and, ya gotta remember, all those people who now say that DAD is their favourite Bond movie, well, we didn't have DAD a year ago so we've got a perfect right now to insist it is.

[Red Widow Dawn]

What was your opinion of OHMSS?

I mean, really now. Characterization isn't the demon you make it out to be. I can only sit through explosions for so long.

[terminus]

OHMSS ? A decent movie that is belittled by most people. It works but because it's not what people expect ( ie, Bond's not running around shagging every girl he sees ) people tend to be disappointed.

It's got good set pieces, a sensible track of investigation and a good Bond girl. Good music, good theme and the sense of humour seems to work. I don't even have a problem with Lazenby but agree that, out of all of them, he's definitely the second worst.

Overall ? OHMSS is a secret pleasure of mine.

[DLibrasnow]

You mean we can;t make fun of Red Widow Dawn's curious fixation with squirrels?

[Red Widow Dawn]

Only if I can make jokes about your fixation with "predators".

A few quick points, Terminus: Bond shagged the entire Piz Gloria crew, shortly before going off to his wedding (which was what I was getting at). You didn't have any problem with the heavy characterization in OHMSS?

[DLibrasnow]

Anyway, my point is I don't automatically love a Bond movie when I first see it in the theater.
Take LTK for example, I hated it when I saw it at the theater back in 1989 and I still hate it

[terminus]

Are you sure Bond shagged them all ? To my recollection, he only shagged Ruby.

No, I'm not opposed to characterisation, in fact, some is good. But the characterisation in TWINE seemed to overwhelm the plot whereas in DAD it was sparse and in broad enough strokes that we knew Graves was the villain and we knew why he hated Bond, but we didn't get into his head like Purvis & Wade seemed to want us to do with Elektra.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by terminus
we didn't get into his head like Purvis & Wade seemed to want us to do with Elektra.

I was having fun with this thread until you mentioned the gruesome twosome

[General Koskov]

Of all the books, OHMSS had Bond as Sir Shagalot, er Sir Hilary. The amount of women consumed by any man in a Bond film has very little bearing on its appeal to me. I consider the story more important.

And for the last time, Mr Prop-manager, why does Bond have a P99 again? (At least it's not a Walther airgun, which would be good for shooting those pesky squirrels.)

[Mister Asterix]

Die Another Day: Liked it.
Squirrels: Don't like 'em. (I've always been more of a chipmunk type fellow.)

And from what I understand Ol' George got more action during the making of On Her Majesty's Secret Service then James Bond did in the film itself.

[General Koskov]

Anyone seen those black squirrels that hang around Southern Ontario and British Columbia? Only grey and red where I live.

[Alexborn007]

I am going to be as frank as possible (and hopefully a bit lengthy.)

The point risen, while blatent, was somewhat vald. Do a lot of DAD fans like it only because its new? I do not think so. Especially in my case. Heres why:


DAD does a very odd thing by attempting to balance characterization and rousing action into one movie. In many respects this just cannot be done. Look at TWINE, which had fantastic characterization (for the most part), but fails miserably with its action. TND has way over the top action and a wafer thin plot that doesn't really go anywhere. GE seems to get the balance right, but you're asking imperfect human beings to get "that" balance every time and its just not possible. DAD provides classy, and over the top entertainment to allow people to escape and have fun while not being insulted (xXx, The Hot Chick, etc.). Bond more times than not accomplishes this and delivers. I've seen this movie Die Another Day 6 times now. Its flawed, imperfect, and not written as good as it could have been. But, I look at TWINE and like DAD multitudes more. Why? I walked out of TWINE feeling empty. It tried to be something James Bond just IS NOT. Back in the day, yes Bond was a much different film. People expected different things. I like DAD because it knows exactly what Bond is and mixes it up a tad. Maybe a little too much, but there's always 21. People who like Die Another Day like it because they knew what to expect with this one. Those who didn't, I do not think you are wrong in any way. I understand where this movie can be completely unimportant for them. This movie IS flawed, and there can never be that one quinessential Bond movie everyone loves (aside from GF maybe) and adores. Also, keep in mind that these movies age and opinions will change in the future. Some in 20 years could say that this one is the best because of the perfect amount of action whereas Bond 32 is nothing but an old Hugh Jackman blowing things up with a dencher grenade.

So, again the question is asked..."Are DAD fans just fans because of frivolous tenancies?" I don't think so. If you see a movie 3 or 4 times, all the hype is taken away. I saw Episode II three times and almost shot myself the third time. I've seen DAD by myself and allowed me to be analytical and not wiat for audience reactions. I also know many non Bond fans who loved this movie. They were very entertained and most have said its the best Bond in awhile. There's cringe worthy moments in every Bond movie (almost) and this one is no exception. However, this movie provides a plot that makes you say "Bond...Only Bond." through the larger than life plans and world domination. Plus, we see Bond become a more cold agent and leaves the human side we saw in previous outings. It also allows for the return of the human Bond and thats what makes the whole thing so exciting. You can watch DAD, have a fun time at the movies, get that unique 007 entertainment, and know that in the end no matter what...James Bond Will Return, and the possibilites are limitless as long as we support them.

[mrmoon]

Why have people forgotten 40 years of Bond just because they like Die Another Day, does the fact I watched From Russia With Love when I came in from seeing Die Another Day please you Red Widow Dawn, fortunately there are some open minded fans who are willing to accept more than a connery rehash, and that like 'all' Bond movies. There are no bad Bond movies for a Bond fan and so if you have found a Bond film you do not like then you are simply not the fan you thought you were.

[DLibrasnow]

OOOhhhh thats a sweeping statement mrmoon

[Red Widow Dawn]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
OOOhhhh thats a ridiculous statement mrmoon

I fixed your post, DLibrasnow.

Please withhold your venom, Mr. Moon. I am not "closed-minded", and I am certainly a real Bond fan.

At any rate, nobody has answered my question. Why has the public shunned Die Another Day (critically, not financially) while an unusual number of Bond fans adore it?

It seems to me a shoddily made movie, for all the reasons Jim expressed. Why are people sticking it in the #1 spot, when, as Alexborn said, there are flawless movies like Goldfinger (which was powerful enough to influence an entire generation and change history).

[PaulZ108]

Originally posted by Red Widow Dawn


I fixed your post, DLibrasnow.

Please withhold your venom, Mr. Moon.  I am not "closed-minded", and I am certainly a real Bond fan.

At any rate, nobody has answered my question.  Why has the public shunned Die Another Day (critically, not financially) while an unusual number of Bond fans adore it?

It seems to me a shoddily made movie, for all the reasons Jim expressed.  Why are people sticking it in the #1 spot, when, as Alexborn said, there are flawless movies like Goldfinger (which was powerful enough to influence an entire generation and change history).

I don't know much about this sort of thing, but I think that the public likes Die Another Day and the critics dislike it. I've noticed that alot of box office hits are generally disliked by critics. It seems to me that most critics would rather see something artsy in a film that an action/adventure film like Die Another Day.

[terminus]

It seems to me that an unusual number of Bond fans have been unceasing in their ability to complain about a movie that, until it had been released, nobody had ever seen.

I have heard mixed reviews of DAD. There's no predominant trend and neither should their be, a little bit of debate is totally healthy.

I went to see DAD on the day it came out. I went to see it on my own because, as a Bond fan, I wanted to have the opportunity to enjoy it without my friends talking. The following day I took friends to see it and even they came out enjoying it ( even one person who had detested most of the Bond films she has seen, the last one being Tommorow Never Dies ) and immediately after that, I went with my boyfriend and whilst he generally doesn't like Bond movies, he enjoyed this one.

I'm a fan, I enjoyed it. My boyfriend and my friend are not fans and they enjoyed it. Thus, fans and novices can likewise enjoy this movie.

I think a novice can easily enjoy something like DAD compared to TWINE and TND. Whereas TWINE emphasises on character ( and by emphasise, I mean vastly overemphasise, at the expense of action and plot ) TND emphasises on action ( at the expense of character and plot ). So, both previous movies lacked two of three things: character, plot and action.

DAD encapsulates all three elements in broad sweeps.

Character ? We're not meant to like Graves, we're meant to find Frost irritating ( but, personally I found Ms Pike's romp as Frost far more enjoyable than the half-rate performance by Ms Berry [ not blaming Ms Berry, she did the best with the material she had been given ] ) and Jinx is supposed to be a female agent. This movie hits character right off the bat, I think any more introspection into motivation would have pulled the movie back into TWINE territory ... mismatching the characterisation/action quotient for yet another movie.

Plot ? Though highly unlikely, the plot makes sense. Bond investigates, but he's captured. He's released and leaves MI6, but when he discovers that Graves was involved in his capture, returns to the fold ...

It's a simple plot and you can understand it. We're not asked to figure anything out, it's all paraded in front of us on little dayglo banners. Yes, the science fiction element ( dna treatment ) is highly unlikely, but we can easily forgive that when the movie seems to flow ( unlike TND which seems chunky and TWINE which seems drab, compared even to TND ).

A novice, as I have said, can easily follow this movie. Yes, it's Bond 20, but it's not a direct sequel. It's not bogged down in the previous movies. We could, in point of fact, insert this movie in before DR NO and there would be no real difference ( yes, the female M, I know, but that is besides the point ) whereas with all of the previous movies, you had to have a semblance of what went before to wholly understand the plot. DAD is not a sequel, more like Movie 1 in Bond 2.0 ...

Action ? I think the action in this movie is juxtaposed easily. There are technical improbabilities, but nobody would have complained about any of these in any other movie. It's simply the Bond factor. But, when was the last time that Bond was cool ? Goldeneye, with the jump off the cliff on the bike and onto the plane. Yes, similarly this is highly illogical, but we suspend our belief in science in order to get the stunt. Likewise, the surfing sequence in Iceland is also scientifically impossible but similarly cool. I didn't mind it and, I suspect, this is a very minor quibble to a lot of people.

Overall, the only minor complaints about this movie that I had were:

1) that the title, DAD, didn't come onscreen at the same time as the lyric, DAD
2) that the last line in the movie wasn't 'Oh, James'


To Be Continued ...


TERMINUS WILL RETURN
AFTER HIS DINNER