144 replies to this topic

[Dustin]

I would have liked that from the sound of it.

The only way to stop Bloberhauser doing something or other is for James Bond to "die" which is either a physical death or to stop being "James Bond" otherwise it just continues on and on and on. This is why Bond walks off at the end, both M and Bloberhauser dependent on him being James Bond for their differing power-struggle reasons (probably a metaphor for how the Bond series finds itself), and Swann considerably less impressed/reliant on that.

What a finale that would have been - both M and Blofeld shouting after Bond to 'Come back and shoot me, coward!'....

[Jim]

OK - and bear in mind I haven't seen the film since October, and I was having a doze when it reached its ninth hour, and this is pointless and a bit tragic really but - here goes (at least it's free and not $300 million)

 

- Basic structure remains

- Auld M Dench charges Bond with recovering the SPECTRE ring in Mexico

- The SPECTRE ring is analysed as having the composition of a stash of Nazi-smelted gold that 006 had almost recovered before he was killed in an avalanche along with his guide, Oberhauser, and his son.

- Bond confides in Moneypenny that he knew Oberhauser after his parents were killed, although the son was older and at University at the time. They barely encountered each other. Bond asks Moneypenny to check the details of the accident.

- Bond still goes to the funeral etc and much of all of the rest of the first hour might as well happen, save that the ring thing is about the gold, not the toxicology connection. 

- I forget what happened in the middle but that might as well still happen.

- Crater confrontation is what I would basically alter:

 

(Blofeld) Is this what you want me to say, James? This is all about you? That it was me, the author of all your pain? (Pause) Don't be childish. Whatever you became, a lawyer, a banker, I'd still be standing here. It would simply have taken longer. I might even be offering you a job. But then you've been working for me for some time. I don't despise you. I never did. After all, we barely met. And years later, our paths cross again, by chance, and you proved... competent.

 

(Bond) Thank you.

 

(Blofeld). No. Thank you. You disposed of my competition. Dominic Greene, Silva.... White. You were my best henchman, James. I told Mr Hinx that, after his last failure. I understand he went looking for you. Jealous type.

 

(Bond) Yes, we had a little chat. A barrel of laughs.

 

(Blofeld) Good. I knew I could rely on you, James. The most valuable weapon is the one that doesn't realise it is. Your every success, the stronger I became. Such applause from those above you, and I in the shadows, I clapped the loudest. Blood on your hands, rather than mine.  You pride yourself on being a dispassionate, blunt instrument. So you never asked, you never cared, who was pulling your trigger. You never thought what would come next. Welcome to consequence.

 

(Bond). You.

 

(Blofeld). Exactly. You became a coincidental necessity, James Bond. A resource. An asset. Look around you. You contributed. 

 

(Swann) You're insane

 

(Blofeld) Ever the psychiatrist, Ms Swann. A superficial diagnosis. What did you make of your father, I wonder? You had years to study him. (Pause, turns on tv screens to show film of Mr White). As did I.

 

(That bit with Bond and Madeleine plays out as given, blah blah blah, I'm just typing this as it comes)

 

(Blofeld) You see, James? The power to deliver information at the optimum moment; total control. Some say gold, or oil, or even water are the most precious commodities. That's what we let them believe. Knowledge is... power. Using it, is control.

 

(Bond) And now you're stockpiling it?

 

(Blofeld) Information is a... manufacturing industry. I have monopolised it. More than that: I shape it. That meteorite, it didn't land here, we fished it from the sea. But what I told you, you accepted as true.

 

(Bond) Your problem now, is that I know of this place. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

(Blofeld) Lethal. Ah, British Intelligence, heh? What happens if you die? They send in 009? Well, we know all about her... such bad habits. This, though, is the beauty of information; one wipes the disc, delete, all gone. With the human brain, one has to drill that much deeper.

 

(The next bit with the drill is the next bit, save for...)

 

(Blofeld) I'm afraid you've nearly outlived your usefulness, James. I am where I need to be, and you are where I need you. Time to make some... cuts in personnel. One last assignment. Know this, before I make you forget it - you were my best secret... agent. You didn't even know. Now you never will. Renew. Reboot. Let me reshape your truth.

 

(Bond) If I'm going to forget it, you might as well tell me.

 

(Blofeld). Hm. Ha! Why not? You can get close to Mallory. Nine Eyes cannot fail, but he is in my way. A blockage. You'll clear my path. Sweep one final piece from the chessboard, James.

 

(Bond) Never.

 

(Blofeld) You've done it before. You did it in Scotland, isolating the old woman so we could kill her. Dismantling Quantum. Leading my men to Ms Swann.

 

(Bond) That's not what happened...

 

(Blofeld) There; you see, Ms Swann, we all manipulate facts to suit us... All I've done is industrialise the process. Weaponise it. The eternal struggle between fact, and truth. Fact is just the raw resource. Bitter, unpalatable. What I refine, what I purify, is truth. (Starts up drill). And pain.

 

 

OK, that was 20 minutes and no dollars.

[Dustin]

Bought. Can you do 25 till 9? So there's time for a pint at the pub?

[Jim]

Ooh, ooh, hang on, just thought of the ending

 

The drill thing into Bond's memory seems to work, this saves money on that huge instantaneous explosion, and part of the climax is a run of start of The Man with the Golden Gun, with a brain-addled Bond turning up in London demanding to see M (for some reason at the old HQ; they built the set, what the hell), but it turns out (of course) this is a ruse and Blofeld, who couldn't resist coming along to watch Bond kill M (or vice versa, fine either way), is captured in much the same way as it plays out. Something like this, anyway. Bond, feigning amnesia in a nod to the end of You Only Live Twice (or a reverse of The Bourne Identity, if you want), above an instrumental reprise of You Know My Name, claims he has forgotten James Bond, M and Blofeld already. "Don't you recognise your name?" / "I think it's safer not to." Bond gives a OHMSS-style parting wave to Moneypenny, and Swanns off. "Let's make some memories." Audience groans. They walk off, leaving the carnage behind. Fade to black. James Bond will return.

 

I know it's not great, but it's cheaper.

[Walecs]

Still better than the official version.

[Dustin]

Plenty.

[Harmsway]

Much better than the real thing.

[SecretAgentFan]

(Blofeld) Is this what you want me to say, James? It was me. The author of all your pain? (Pause) Don't be childish. Whatever you became, a lawyer, a banker, I'd still be standing here. Possibly years later, possibly offering you a job. But  you have always worked for me. I don't despise you. I needed you. You got rid of my competition. You were my best henchman. The most valuable weapon is the one that doesn't realise it is. Such applause from those above you, and I in the shadows, I clapped the loudest. Blood on your hands, rather than mine. You pride yourself on being a dispassionate, blunt instrument. So you never asked, you never cared, who was pulling the trigger. You never thought what would come next. Welcome to consequence.

 

 

This is the dialogue I would have wanted Blofeld to have.  Absolutely magnificient and precise.  Waltz could have excelled with this.

 

EON - get this guy to write for you!

[Jim]

Done a little tweak.

 

That aside, have also changed the post above. I will leave it be now, because I fear when I watch it again on Monday I'll just be even more disappointed.

[dtuba]

Don't be, Jim. That was effing brilliant   

[RMc2]

 

(Blofeld) Is this what you want me to say, James? It was me. The author of all your pain? (Pause) Don't be childish. Whatever you became, a lawyer, a banker, I'd still be standing here. Possibly years later, possibly offering you a job. But  you have always worked for me. I don't despise you. I needed you. You got rid of my competition. You were my best henchman. The most valuable weapon is the one that doesn't realise it is. Such applause from those above you, and I in the shadows, I clapped the loudest. Blood on your hands, rather than mine. You pride yourself on being a dispassionate, blunt instrument. So you never asked, you never cared, who was pulling the trigger. You never thought what would come next. Welcome to consequence.

 

 

This is the dialogue I would have wanted Blofeld to have.  Absolutely magnificient and precise.  Waltz could have excelled with this.

 

EON - get this guy to write for you!

 

 

That's a really lovely speech, Jim! I can hear Waltz saying it

[Surrie]

 

 

(Blofeld) Is this what you want me to say, James? It was me. The author of all your pain? (Pause) Don't be childish. Whatever you became, a lawyer, a banker, I'd still be standing here. Possibly years later, possibly offering you a job. But  you have always worked for me. I don't despise you. I needed you. You got rid of my competition. You were my best henchman. The most valuable weapon is the one that doesn't realise it is. Such applause from those above you, and I in the shadows, I clapped the loudest. Blood on your hands, rather than mine. You pride yourself on being a dispassionate, blunt instrument. So you never asked, you never cared, who was pulling the trigger. You never thought what would come next. Welcome to consequence.

 

 

This is the dialogue I would have wanted Blofeld to have.  Absolutely magnificient and precise.  Waltz could have excelled with this.

 

EON - get this guy to write for you!

 

 

That's a really lovely speech, Jim! I can hear Waltz saying it

 

 

Agreed! Waltz would have been able to pull this off perfectly. It's a shame EON's writers couldn't characterise as well as you have been able to in one paragraph! 

[Dustin]

Most of all, it gives the film exactly that kind of curveball twist they failed to achieve with the brothers angle. It's at once more believable and packs more punch.

[Harmsway]

Jim's "rewrite" of Spectre certainly makes sense of the Bloferhauser stuff.

 

That said, the other two main story arcs in the film (Bond's love affair with Madeleine/the Nine Eyes takeover) still need work. The former is just a series of bullet points crammed in among bigger set-pieces and storylines, when really the film needs to focus on their blossoming romance if Madeleine is really to be CraigBond's Tracy. The Rome stuff is mostly extraneous when you look at this film's narrative structure; if Bond hears the name the "Pale King" in Mexico, perhaps it'd be best if he catches up with White and Madeleine earlier in the picture.

 

The Nine Eyes stuff doesn't work. It's not conceptually very interesting and all it amounts to in the film is a series of dull exchanges between M and Denbigh interspersed with a few generic "meeting" scenes (these deary scenes don't even have the benefit of Ken Adam sets to spruce them up). Quantum of Solace is a misfire, but its sense of what a contemporary, SPECTRE-like organization would look like is essentially right: powerful movers and shakers working in various areas of political and economic fields to consolidate power. The Nine Eyes plan would naturally fit into that, but it doesn't feel appropriately big. A bad guy trying to start a war is old hat for this franchise, but that's the kind of scale that Bloferhauser's scheme should have.

[Darthyan]

Nine Eyes is actually devilish if you think about it. Since his agent is in charge of the merger, Spectre has a backdoor into the intelligence of 9 of the single most powerful intelligence agencies on the planet. There are so many ways a villain could wreck havoc. He could use the back door to increase his profitability in things like the sex trade, or plan more terrorist attacks. 

 

 

So the general consensus is

 

Climax should be the fight in the crater; it would end with Nine Eyes thwarted but with Blofeld escaping.

 

Bond and Madeline should develop me: I get what they're trying to do. Bond still feels some pain over Vesper even though it's mostly subsided. Madeline shows him opening up again and starting to feel again. Bond and Madeline need more time to evolve.

 

 

 

Honestly, I'd have Bond and Madeline on an uncertain place at the end of the film. This sets up the final film in Craig's run. 

 

The climax of Bond 25 is Blofeld trying to force Bond to choose between abandoning Madeline or trying to save her and probably dying in the process. The climax of THAT film should be Bond sparing Blofeld and letting justice take its course. That way it could act as a swan song. Bond's finally faced his inner demons and moved on to a new life.

Edited by Darthyan, 19 February 2016 - 11:08 PM.

[Guy Haines]

An update about SPECTRE from me, based on other opinions.

I've already mentioned a relative and two friends, and their views about Skyfall and, in the case of one of them, SPECTRE also. This past weekend another friend of mine - a lady I am very, very fond of, if you catch my drift! - also watched SPECTRE on DVD, and she's already seen the three Craig films which preceded it. She was at home, and texted me to say she thought SPECTRE was "very good". But when I met her the following day she had revised her view - and it was all down to the final part of the film, a common complaint I've heard (It looks like she texted when watching the first half!)

On the basis of this - anecdotal evidence from non-Bond fans who nonetheless enjoyed most of the movie, I'd say it's the final quarter or even third of the movie that needed re-writing.

Incidentally, one unresolved issue I would have tried to find an explanation for is the "dead M" video. We are never told why she wants Sciarra dead, and only "if anything should happen to me." What did she know about Sciarra and SPECTRE? It strikes me she too had a secret she couldn't tell anyone because she couldn't trust anyone - while she was alive, not even Bond.

Was it blackmail? Or something else? Maybe in Bond 25 we might find out.

[DaveBond21]

An update about SPECTRE from me, based on other opinions.

I've already mentioned a relative and two friends, and their views about Skyfall and, in the case of one of them, SPECTRE also. This past weekend another friend of mine - a lady I am very, very fond of, if you catch my drift! - also watched SPECTRE on DVD, and she's already seen the three Craig films which preceded it. She was at home, and texted me to say she thought SPECTRE was "very good". But when I met her the following day she had revised her view - and it was all down to the final part of the film, a common complaint I've heard (It looks like she texted when watching the first half!)

On the basis of this - anecdotal evidence from non-Bond fans who nonetheless enjoyed most of the movie, I'd say it's the final quarter or even third of the movie that needed re-writing.

Incidentally, one unresolved issue I would have tried to find an explanation for is the "dead M" video. We are never told why she wants Sciarra dead, and only "if anything should happen to me." What did she know about Sciarra and SPECTRE? It strikes me she too had a secret she couldn't tell anyone because she couldn't trust anyone - while she was alive, not even Bond.

Was it blackmail? Or something else? Maybe in Bond 25 we might find out.

 

 

I assumed that she had got wind of potential terrorist attacks in Hamburg and Tunisia and tracked them down to a potential organisation of which Sciarra was part.

 

Perhapy she had this confirmed just before the attack on Mi6 HQ. She quickly recorded the message for Bond knowing that something might happen to her and she was right. She also knew that by going to the funeral, Bond might find other members of the organisation and she was right about that too. Indeed, killing Sciarra prevented the South Africa stadium attack (temporarily) and also hastened a SPECTRE gathering to decide his replacement.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[Dustin]

Personally, I think the more convenient explanation would be that Sciarra's wife should be M's agent. She contacted M promising to defect if M arranged a 00 divorce for her. She would be the one to point to Spectre and give them the location of White. If you roll up the story from that angle Sciarra's wife isn't a loose thread any more.

[AMC Hornet]

How long does it take to drive from London to Glencoe?

 

She could have told Bond all about it then.

[tdalton]

Personally, I think the more convenient explanation would be that Sciarra's wife should be M's agent. She contacted M promising to defect if M arranged a 00 divorce for her. She would be the one to point to Spectre and give them the location of White. If you roll up the story from that angle Sciarra's wife isn't a loose thread any more.

 

Agreed.  

 

Who knows what the writing team was thinking when they put pen to paper on Spectre, but this is the theory that makes the most sense and doesn't leave more questions than answers.

[Guy Haines]

How long does it take to drive from London to Glencoe?
 
She could have told Bond all about it then.

I don't know about London to Glencoe but I've done Nottingham to Dunblane by motor vehicle - seven and a quarter hours!

Agreed - if she had something to disclose in private she could have done it during the journey. "If one or both of us get out of this....." and so on. Which leads me to think that whilst CR and QoS could have been parts one and two of a trilogy, SF probably wasn't but had to be fitted in somehow. It might have made sense to have Bond in Mexico on a mission assigned by the current M - tracking Sciarra because, perhaps, he had been suspected of involvement in something else that caught MI6's attention - during which the reference to "The Pale King" intrigues Bond - who then goes off on his "rogue" mission and tracks down White, finds Madeleine and eventually SPECTRE. Lucia could still have figured as a lead - but one Bond has to find rather than be directed to by his late boss.

[RMc2]

 

Personally, I think the more convenient explanation would be that Sciarra's wife should be M's agent. She contacted M promising to defect if M arranged a 00 divorce for her. She would be the one to point to Spectre and give them the location of White. If you roll up the story from that angle Sciarra's wife isn't a loose thread any more.

 

Agreed.  

 

Who knows what the writing team was thinking when they put pen to paper on Spectre, but this is the theory that makes the most sense and doesn't leave more questions than answers.

 

 

That would have been great. And again, it's another thing SP could have fixed with the addition of just one or two lines of dialogue.

[Guy Haines]

Personally, I think the more convenient explanation would be that Sciarra's wife should be M's agent. She contacted M promising to defect if M arranged a 00 divorce for her. She would be the one to point to Spectre and give them the location of White. If you roll up the story from that angle Sciarra's wife isn't a loose thread any more.

 
Agreed.  
 
Who knows what the writing team was thinking when they put pen to paper on Spectre, but this is the theory that makes the most sense and doesn't leave more questions than answers.

 
That would have been great. And again, it's another thing SP could have fixed with the addition of just one or two lines of dialogue.

It makes sense, but is it one of those loose threads, along with others in SP and the three preceding films, which the producers/writers hope to finally tie up in a fifth and final Craig Bond film? Links that can be used to tie Bond 25 to the preceding four - but which are sufficiently insignificent not to matter if DC doesn't return for number 25?

[Dustin]

In fact this is what I would view as my main problem with SPECTRE, that it would have been so easy to patch up numerous issues this story has and you'd have ended up with a 100 per cent better film. Some of it you could have even fixed in the cutting room.

[Pierceuhhh]

Owning it on Blu Ray gives the chance to put your finger on what nags you:

We REALLY need to see Sciarra and the helicopter pilots fall to their death. My brain needs that loop closed every time I see it. In a movie, not seeing a body fall is tantamount to "Sciarra is clinging to the undercarriage ready to strike when we least expect it!"

The movie also needs more villains, and more interaction between them. SPECTRE is supposed to be a big outfit, instead it's Blofeld and Hinx, who don't even know each others names, and a handful of faceless people.

Edited by Pierceuhhh, 03 April 2016 - 12:20 AM.

[Hockey Mask]

Owning it on Blu Ray gives the chance to put your finger on what nags you:
We REALLY need to see Sciarra and the helicopter pilots fall to their death. My brain needs that loop closed every time I see it. In a movie, not seeing a body fall is tantamount to "Sciarra is clinging to the undercarriage ready to strike when we least expect it!"
The movie also needs more villains, and more interaction between them. SPECTRE is supposed to be a big outfit, instead it's Blofeld and Hinx, who don't even know each others names, and a handful of faceless people.

I understand your point but I remember in the theater on opening night thinking how refreshing it was to see them sucked out of the helicopter and Hinx out of the train.

[MadeleineSwann]

I'm actually working on my own version of Spectre, attempting reattempt what I personally and what I know others wanted to be different: http://debrief.comma...on-fan-version/

[No. 1]

I've watched it a few times now and it just keeps on getting better: only 2 things I'd change:
Make more of Hinx's metal thumbs as he really was an awesome henchman and deserved a bit more chance to shine.
Make the escape from the crater a bit more interesting, as that really was too easy given what he'd just been through.
I even don't mind the family connection and I was well prepared to hate that with a passion! I so hope Craig and Waltz are back for more... Maybe even with Bautista please!!!

[Agent Spriggan Ominae]

 

Owning it on Blu Ray gives the chance to put your finger on what nags you:
We REALLY need to see Sciarra and the helicopter pilots fall to their death. My brain needs that loop closed every time I see it. In a movie, not seeing a body fall is tantamount to "Sciarra is clinging to the undercarriage ready to strike when we least expect it!"
The movie also needs more villains, and more interaction between them. SPECTRE is supposed to be a big outfit, instead it's Blofeld and Hinx, who don't even know each others names, and a handful of faceless people.

I understand your point but I remember in the theater on opening night thinking how refreshing it was to see them sucked out of the helicopter and Hinx out of the train.

 

 

I would have kept it as it was in the various leaked script drafts. In all drafts Sciarra was to fall through the helicopter blades as the chopper was flipping upside down. Would have been far more interesting, graphic, and satisfying. Also in the script it says Hinx was sucked under the wheels of the train. Another graphic death that was somewhat changed in the final film. 

[sharpshooter]

Make the escape from the crater a bit more interesting, as that really was too easy given what he'd just been through.

I do agree with this now. From that point on, the film basically becomes something of a snooze-fest.