144 replies to this topic

[Harmsway]

To really "fix" SPECTRE, you really have to rethink it. The film, as is, is trying to do too much.

Personally, I'd drop the MI5/MI6 merger angle altogether. It's not interesting. The inclusion of Bond's childhood also doesn't bring much to the table.

So what you're left with is the two other major storylines, namely the love story and the sense that Bond is confronting the big bad responsible for the major events of his career. Build the story around those two plotlines and give them the emphasis they deserve.

[Dustin]

I feel SPECTRE should work as a crossroads for the rebooted Bond. Therefore I'd weave in some strands that already carry the story for BOND 25. I'd leave Blofeld as a shadow figure or just a voice even. I'd put an emphasis on Quantum having ample documentation of its dealings with all sides and Bond going to great lengths to destroy this information. And Q later being grounded with the task to rescue from the debris whatever he can.

This way you can start BOND 25 with Bond and Lucia making love in some exotic locale. The scenery changes from afternoon to night, now we see only schemes and silhouettes on the bed, a hand appears from the camera angle, holding a gun. A female voice, Lucia's, asks 'James?' - then a couple of shots, silence.

Then we see the shooter's face. It's Bond.

Next Bond drives away from a remote tropical holiday bungalow that's burning as it disappears in the distance. Bond makes his way to a small airfield where he prepares to board a flight. Just before he can climb the stairs he's shot with a taser. A team of black-clad figures takes him to a RAF carrier where M waits for him.


M has learned from the restored data that one of Quantum's operations was undoubtedly Bond's work. Now he asks Bond why he killed Lucia. Bond answers she knew all along he had been working for Quantum and had threatened to reveal his involvement with them, so he had to kill her.

Bond is brought to some secret base - possibly underwater or a submarine bunker - where they intend to question him. Here a team of Blofeld's men lead by Hinx breaks him free. Hinx is on the verge of killing Bond right there, only his fear of Blofeld keeps him from giving in.

Blofeld, since having taken over Quantum only recently, hasn't been aware Bond was working for Quantum too. He asks Bond why he didn't say so earlier. Bond asks if that would have changed Blofeld's plans to reveal all of Quantum's activities.

'No, not at all. Isn't it much more interesting this way?'

Blofeld needs reliable personnel for his new operation. Since his last scheme was foiled he senses the comrades of Mr White don't trust him. Since Bond was revealed as a traitor he's now become a candidate for Spectre. But Blofeld doesn't take Bond at face value.

'When exactly was it that you started working for Quantum?'

'In Venice. White made me an offer. All I had to do was kill Vesper Lynd; she was of no use any more. Left messages on her laptop, confessed everything.

'After the bitch was dead we had to dispose of Mitchell. White needed no two agents close to M, one was enough for him.'

Blofeld, despite willing to believe Bond had worked for some time under White's orders, still wants definite proof, so he orders him to kill M. After that Blofeld will make Bond his right hand man.

Take it from there, something along those lines. Blofeld should be a bit of a half-crazy, but still highly capable and willing to live with either outcome. Failure only inspires him, he is never hateful, rather he's driven by a kind of feral glee. And he should perhaps have one true love, a totally amoral but intellectually shallow partner, male or female doesn't matter. The two of them should just honestly enjoy watching things burn: candles; logs in the mantelpiece, cities.

[S K Y F A L L]

Bond taking out Blofeld's helicopter with a few shots of his PPK was too easy.

 

Of all the ways Bond takes out a helicopter;

 

FRWL - Shots co-pilot with grenade

YOLT - Little Nelly

TSWLM - Underwater Lotus

AVTAK - Flaire 

TND - Throwing a chain into the rotor

TWINE - Car missile and gas 

[Darthyan]

I feel SPECTRE should work as a crossroads for the rebooted Bond. Therefore I'd weave in some strands that already carry the story for BOND 25. I'd leave Blofeld as a shadow figure or just a voice even. I'd put an emphasis on Quantum having ample documentation of its dealings with all sides and Bond going to great lengths to destroy this information. And Q later being grounded with the task to rescue from the debris whatever he can.

This way you can start BOND 25 with Bond and Lucia making love in some exotic locale. The scenery changes from afternoon to night, now we see only schemes and silhouettes on the bed, a hand appears from the camera angle, holding a gun. A female voice, Lucia's, asks 'James?' - then a couple of shots, silence.

Then we see the shooter's face. It's Bond.

Next Bond drives away from a remote tropical holiday bungalow that's burning as it disappears in the distance. Bond makes his way to a small airfield where he prepares to board a flight. Just before he can climb the stairs he's shot with a taser. A team of black-clad figures takes him to a RAF carrier where M waits for him.


M has learned from the restored data that one of Quantum's operations was undoubtedly Bond's work. Now he asks Bond why he killed Lucia. Bond answers she knew all along he had been working for Quantum and had threatened to reveal his involvement with them, so he had to kill her.

Bond is brought to some secret base - possibly underwater or a submarine bunker - where they intend to question him. Here a team of Blofeld's men lead by Hinx breaks him free. Hinx is on the verge of killing Bond right there, only his fear of Blofeld keeps him from giving in.

Blofeld, since having taken over Quantum only recently, hasn't been aware Bond was working for Quantum too. He asks Bond why he didn't say so earlier. Bond asks if that would have changed Blofeld's plans to reveal all of Quantum's activities.

'No, not at all. Isn't it much more interesting this way?'

Blofeld needs reliable personnel for his new operation. Since his last scheme was foiled he senses the comrades of Mr White don't trust him. Since Bond was revealed as a traitor he's now become a candidate for Spectre. But Blofeld doesn't take Bond at face value.

'When exactly was it that you started working for Quantum?'

'In Venice. White made me an offer. All I had to do was kill Vesper Lynd; she was of no use any more. Left messages on her laptop, confessed everything.

'After the bitch was dead we had to dispose of Mitchell. White needed no two agents close to M, one was enough for him.'

Blofeld, despite willing to believe Bond had worked for some time under White's orders, still wants definite proof, so he orders him to kill M. After that Blofeld will make Bond his right hand man.

Take it from there, something along those lines. Blofeld should be a bit of a half-crazy, but still highly capable and willing to live with either outcome. Failure only inspires him, he is never hateful, rather he's driven by a kind of feral glee. And he should perhaps have one true love, a totally amoral but intellectually shallow partner, male or female doesn't matter. The two of them should just honestly enjoy watching things burn: candles; logs in the mantelpiece, cities.

WTF is this S***? Bond being evil all along makes no damn sense given how much Bond messes Quantum up and how we see him genuinely trying to save Vesper and Camille. Bond is not a sociopath. He has a dark side but we see humanity and genuine admirable qualities (most notably in how he deals with the three big women of Madeline Vesper and Camille.)

[Tiin007]

No DB5 in SPECTRE.

 

It's destruction in Skyfall was meaningful in terms of both story and symbolism (moving past the abundance of self-references). 

 

Bringing it back in SPECTRE negates all of that, making its explosion in Skyfall completely meaningless. And it means we've seen the car in all but one of Craig's entries (QoS being the exception). 

 

It feels like nothing more than lip-service to the fans, many of whom (I hope) were displeased with its inclusion in SPECTRE.

[Vauxhall]

To really "fix" SPECTRE, you really have to rethink it. The film, as is, is trying to do too much.
Personally, I'd drop the MI5/MI6 merger angle altogether. It's not interesting. The inclusion of Bond's childhood also doesn't bring much to the table.
So what you're left with is the two other major storylines, namely the love story and the sense that Bond is confronting the big bad responsible for the major events of his career. Build the story around those two plotlines and give them the emphasis they deserve.

I'd take that. Also, get rid of Judi's M back from the grave. It's not needed, and one of the more ridiculous aspects. No real person, least of all a professional spy, would leave such an important tip on a DVD.

[Harmsway]

Also, get rid of Judi's M back from the grave. It's not needed, and one of the more ridiculous aspects. No real person, least of all a professional spy, would leave such an important tip on a DVD.

It's true. They wanted her to appear in visual form, but it doesn't make much sense from a narrative POV.

[tdalton]

 

To really "fix" SPECTRE, you really have to rethink it. The film, as is, is trying to do too much.
Personally, I'd drop the MI5/MI6 merger angle altogether. It's not interesting. The inclusion of Bond's childhood also doesn't bring much to the table.
So what you're left with is the two other major storylines, namely the love story and the sense that Bond is confronting the big bad responsible for the major events of his career. Build the story around those two plotlines and give them the emphasis they deserve.

I'd take that. Also, get rid of Judi's M back from the grave. It's not needed, and one of the more ridiculous aspects. No real person, least of all a professional spy, would leave such an important tip on a DVD.

 

 

Well, she'd already proven herself to be quite incompetent over the course of the films that she appeared in, so I can't say that having M do something like that seems like it would be too terribly out of place.

[Dustin]

"..."



WTF is this S***? Bond being evil all along makes no damn sense given how much Bond messes Quantum up and how we see him genuinely trying to save Vesper and Camille. Bond is not a sociopath. He has a dark side but we see humanity and genuine admirable qualities (most notably in how he deals with the three big women of Madeline Vesper and Camille.)

It doesn't need to make sense since we've seen Vesper kill herself. The point is that Blofeld didn't and that he can't ask White how much of Bond's story is true...

[sharpshooter]

The inclusion of Bond's childhood also doesn't bring much to the table.

 

I've thought about this, and I'd keep it. 

 

Mendes' Bond films all feature three main characters having a symbiotic relationship with one another. In Skyfall it's between Bond, M and Silva. "Now it's me and her," Silva says after thinking Bond has died in the lodge explosion. M screwed over Silva, therefore Silva hates M. Silva views Bond as M's puppet, who is being screwed over just as he was.

 

In SPECTRE, Bond, Madeleine and Blofeld are intertwined. Bond and Blofeld had their brief childhood together, and Blofeld being in charge of the organisation which brought Bond pain and suffering. And Madeleine is indirectly connected to Blofeld and become involved with Bond, resting in a grey area. I suppose it's not for everyone, but I quite like what Mendes brought to the table here.

[Walecs]

I don't get why Mendes hasn't directed a few Once Upon a Time episodes. He would really feel home, there.

[coco1997]

 

"..."



WTF is this S***? Bond being evil all along makes no damn sense given how much Bond messes Quantum up and how we see him genuinely trying to save Vesper and Camille. Bond is not a sociopath. He has a dark side but we see humanity and genuine admirable qualities (most notably in how he deals with the three big women of Madeline Vesper and Camille.)

It doesn't need to make sense since we've seen Vesper kill herself. The point is that Blofeld didn't and that he can't ask White how much of Bond's story is true...

 

 

Dustin, can you explain why you would want Bond to turn into a villain?

[Dustin]

"..."



WTF is this S***? Bond being evil all along makes no damn sense given how much Bond messes Quantum up and how we see him genuinely trying to save Vesper and Camille. Bond is not a sociopath. He has a dark side but we see humanity and genuine admirable qualities (most notably in how he deals with the three big women of Madeline Vesper and Camille.)

It doesn't need to make sense since we've seen Vesper kill herself. The point is that Blofeld didn't and that he can't ask White how much of Bond's story is true...

Dustin, can you explain why you would want Bond to turn into a villain?

Do I do that, turning Bond into a villain?

I show him acting the way he usually does. And I let him explain his actions himself. To Blofeld. I'd even go one further, I'd let him meet with M, with M saying 'I knew this would happen,' and Bond saying 'So did I,' and let him shoot M, with Hinx as his witness. Then I would let Bond abduct Q to make him deliver the restored data to Blofeld.

But I never said Bond was to be the villain in this. I merely want the audience to wonder 'Could it be..?'

[tdalton]

 

 

 

"..."



WTF is this S***? Bond being evil all along makes no damn sense given how much Bond messes Quantum up and how we see him genuinely trying to save Vesper and Camille. Bond is not a sociopath. He has a dark side but we see humanity and genuine admirable qualities (most notably in how he deals with the three big women of Madeline Vesper and Camille.)

It doesn't need to make sense since we've seen Vesper kill herself. The point is that Blofeld didn't and that he can't ask White how much of Bond's story is true...

Dustin, can you explain why you would want Bond to turn into a villain?

Do I do that, turning Bond into a villain?

I show him acting the way he usually does. And I let him explain his actions himself. To Blofeld. I'd even go one further, I'd let him meet with M, with M saying 'I knew this would happen,' and Bond saying 'So did I,' and let him shoot M, with Hinx as his witness. Then I would let Bond abduct Q to make him deliver the restored data to Blofeld.

But I never said Bond was to be the villain in this. I merely want the audience to wonder 'Could it be..?'

 

 

I'd be OK with EON going that kind of route with the audience wondering if Bond and his actions in the film could be trusted, with Bond only coming out on top and on the right side at the very last minute in the film. 

 

Something like that would be far more interesting and daring for the franchise than a sappy plot point about the villain's motivations for being the biggest baddy in the history of the world winding up to be daddy issues and foster-brother issues.

[Surrie]

 

 

 

"..."



WTF is this S***? Bond being evil all along makes no damn sense given how much Bond messes Quantum up and how we see him genuinely trying to save Vesper and Camille. Bond is not a sociopath. He has a dark side but we see humanity and genuine admirable qualities (most notably in how he deals with the three big women of Madeline Vesper and Camille.)

It doesn't need to make sense since we've seen Vesper kill herself. The point is that Blofeld didn't and that he can't ask White how much of Bond's story is true...

Dustin, can you explain why you would want Bond to turn into a villain?

Do I do that, turning Bond into a villain?

I show him acting the way he usually does. And I let him explain his actions himself. To Blofeld. I'd even go one further, I'd let him meet with M, with M saying 'I knew this would happen,' and Bond saying 'So did I,' and let him shoot M, with Hinx as his witness. Then I would let Bond abduct Q to make him deliver the restored data to Blofeld.

But I never said Bond was to be the villain in this. I merely want the audience to wonder 'Could it be..?'

 

 

How would you finish it off then Dustin? After all you have suggested how can the audience believe he is the hero we know he is? 

[mattjoes]

No DB5 in SPECTRE.

 

It's destruction in Skyfall was meaningful in terms of both story and symbolism (moving past the abundance of self-references). 

 

Bringing it back in SPECTRE negates all of that, making its explosion in Skyfall completely meaningless. And it means we've seen the car in all but one of Craig's entries (QoS being the exception). 

 

It feels like nothing more than lip-service to the fans, many of whom (I hope) were displeased with its inclusion in SPECTRE.

It's the same as with Q telling Bond in Skyfall "we don't really go in for [exploding pens] anymore".

Cue Spectre. "We do go in, however, for exploding watches!"

 

Don't get me wrong, the Craig films are solid, but the series seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis. To some extent, I think Skyfall wanted to eat its cake and have it too. Yes, the DB5 is used a symbol of leaving the past behind, but by including it, it's also fulfilling the long standing Bond tradition of featuring a sports car. I suspect Skyfall, while thematically coherent as an individual film, won't make sense in the long run as part of the franchise.

I think Bond must embrace certain traditions. I want the car and some gadgets every once in a while. Right now, I don't see any need to move past them.

Edited by mattjoes, 01 December 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[plankattack]

 

No DB5 in SPECTRE.

 

It's destruction in Skyfall was meaningful in terms of both story and symbolism (moving past the abundance of self-references). 

 

Bringing it back in SPECTRE negates all of that, making its explosion in Skyfall completely meaningless. And it means we've seen the car in all but one of Craig's entries (QoS being the exception). 

 

It feels like nothing more than lip-service to the fans, many of whom (I hope) were displeased with its inclusion in SPECTRE.

It's the same as with Q telling Bond in Skyfall "we don't really go in for [exploding pens] anymore".

Cue Spectre. "We do go in, however, for exploding watches!"

 

Don't get me wrong, the Craig films are solid, but the series seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis. To some extent, I think Skyfall wanted to eat its cake and have it too. Yes, the DB5 is used a symbol of leaving the past behind, but by including it, it's also fulfilling the long standing Bond tradition of feautring a sports car. I suspect Skyfall, while thematically coherent as an individual film, won't make sense in the long run as part of the franchise.

I think Bond must embrace certain traditions. I want the car and some gadgets every once in a while. Right now, I don't see any need to move past them.

 

 It's interesting. I feel that despite the oft-discussed continuity issues, the DB5 "fits" into SF.

 

On the other hand, the DB10 seems far more of a nod to "time to give the fans a sports car." It' appearance within the film an example of ticking a box, than really adding much. I find the car and everything around it, underwhelming. No build-up as in GF, and the chase itself not as visceral as QoS, nor as "witty" as say, FYEO. 

 

As much as IMHO, the Vanish in DAD is one of the lowest moments in the franchise, the car in that film at least helps the plot's overall mometum. In SP, I don't get a sense that there's much to the DB10 other than, "lets give everyone a new car."

 

The DB5 in SF is logically questionable, the DB10 in SP, just lazy.

[Dustin]

This would essentially be a story about how far Bond is really willing to go to for his assignment. Bond never had a deep cover assignment that went on longer than a relatively short time. So the aim would be to play with audience's expectations.

At first they will be shocked about Bond's actions, then they will start rationalising about it 'has to be a trick,' so each time they convince themselves Bond is still on the side of the angels we turn the screw one bit further, shooting M, delivering a hapless Q, watching unmoved as Q is turned over to Blofeld's interrogators, so on. All the while Bond is competing with Hinx for the Largo post in the new Spectre organisation.

I'd let Hinx challenge Bond in an open duel, with Blofeld and his girlfriend - or boyfriend, same deal - presiding over the action. Bond would get hurt, but not too seriously. The details would have to be spectacular and with just the right amount of gore, a duel to the death in some vast park, resembling FRWL's pts in tone but considerably more violent, ending with Hinx' face stuffed in the sewer of an outdoor pool and sucked off by the undertow.

Afterwards Blofeld's love interest would make a straightforward move on the bloodied beaten up Bond, implying it would be much better for him to be on her/his good side in the future.

Bond turns the offer down, excusing himself with being 'drained a bit.'

Shorty after this Blofeld congratulates him, leaving open if he is aware of his love interest's move on Bond.

Blofeld now wants to extract as much information from Q as possible, but ideally without breaking him. He suggests that Bond tries to reason with him.

Q watched Bond shooting M, he knows Bond was imprisoned for supposedly working for White and killing Lucia. To Q Bond is a traitor, he has no reason to believe otherwise. Yet...he's still hoping, against all hope.

The first thing Bond does, before saying a single word, is that he holds his head and forces open his jaws and extracts a jacket crown with a pair of pliers from the screaming Q. He quickly flushes the bloodied ceramic down the drain, commenting how pointless a cyanide capsule is when one is not prepared to use it in time.

Now Q knows the score. He never had a cyanide capsule in his dental works.

The last act would see Q cooperating with Bond while Blofeld regroups his organisation. Blofeld's love interest would torture Q on her/his own initiative, not fully trusting Bond after having been turned down. Bond has to similarly contact M - who is still alive, but has been really shot by 007 - and try to rescue Q while avoiding to be exposed prematurely.

There is of course some McGuffin missing, also a love interest for Bond, a fresh Spectre operation to foil and so on. And it would become apparent Bond was working on M's orders, with nobody except the two of them in the picture. Also they would have discussed how to buy himself into Blofeld's service, by offering to kill M. Lucia also was not killed, she lives under a new name somewhere far from the action.

But roughly this would be my direction.

Blofeld would escape. His love interest would be killed.

[coco1997]

Sounds like it would be Craig's LICENCE TO KILL.

[AMC Hornet]

'Redo' a film that's only just opened?

 

Why weren't we consulted by EON before the final cuts were made?

 

I can't get too excited by this thread, since one poster's 'improvements' can be another poster's nightmare.

 

Remember the Joker 'improving' the artworks in the Gotham Gallery?

 

Of course the Joker was a lunatic, a maniac and a psychopath, and we're none of those.*

 

 

*Cue Stewart Granger in Hell Hunters: "Hitler was mad - I'm not mad!" (Line delivered with stark, staring bug eyes and a desperate, delusional grin.)

[byline]

I can't get too excited by this thread, since one poster's 'improvements' can be another poster's nightmare.

My feelings exactly.

[S K Y F A L L]

A romantic ending credits song.

[Darthyan]

It's partially because of how disjointed the film could be.

 

Bond's big emotional climax should have been saved for the fifth movie; Bond falling in love again should get the time it deserves (Bond's falling for Madeline could be argued to be a little rushed), while facing the final boss of his career and redeeming himself by saving the woman he loves should be spared for the finale. Bond finally retiring and being with the woman he loves should be the swan song of Craig's run. 

 

SPECTRE would serve as a first encounter when Bond and Blofeld cross swords; the 25th movie would serve as Bond's final fight; the climax would have Blofeld try to force bond to make a sadistic choice and break him by forcing him to relive the death of vesper. Hell move the London climax to movie 25. Bond would have his final rush through the building trying to save Madeline, before pursuing blofeld and shooting him out of the sky with a more powerful gun (or something on the boat.)

 

Have the climax end with the face-off in Morocco, and have the second movie feature a full-blown shadow war between MI6 and the other intelligence agencies of the countries SPECTRE hurt vs Spectre with Blofeld trying to drag the world down with him or at the very least hurt everything Bond loves. 

[sharpshooter]

In SP, I don't get a sense that there's much to the DB10 other than, "lets give everyone a new car."

Perhaps. Although SPECTRE did present a different slant on the traditional car chase with the gadgets not being loaded - Bond guessing what each button would do before using it. I liked that element. 

 

As for the DB5 returning, I didn't have a problem. At the end of Skyfall Bond is fully restored, and this is visually signified with M's office painting. In SPECTRE, Bond's trademark vehicle is also restored, but only at the end of the film. So when he drives away with Madeleine, all is finally well in his world.

[FlemingBond]

why would Bond Not get a new car?

i only wish it hadn't gotten wrecked, like they do in every movie. thought it was fairly implausible that the DB5 was all fixed at the end after being blown up. 

not to mention Q saying he told Bond to bring it back in one piece when his Q would not have issued it to him , further muddying the waters of the 'reboot'

[x007AceOfSpades]

not to mention Q saying he told Bond to bring it back in one piece when his Q would not have issued it to him , further muddying the waters of the 'reboot'

Yeah that was head scratchingly, irritating considering there's nothing in Skyfall about Q issuing the DB5 to Bond or anything of the likes.

[Professor Pi]

Remember the sniper rifle Craig eyes when first entering Q's new digs?  After Bond unties Madeleine and they head for the boat, he stops to go off in another direction.  "Where are you going?"  she says, "Come on!"

 

Then when they leave Vauxhall on boat, Bond is seen with the sniper rifle and that is how he shoots down the helicopter!

 

I also wanted a big army battle at the crater.  Moneypenny convincing M to send in the cavalry.  "Alright, but phone only.  We don't want C to know what were doing."  Perfect excuse to call in Felix Leiter's help, since he was name dropped.  Keep the Q kidnapping from the earlier version of the script.   That gives Bond a motivation to go to the desert lair.

 

Didn't care for the way C bought the farm.  Would have been poetic justice if he was at the crater and a drone got him in the ensuing battle.

 

But all in all, I'm fine with the film as is, minus the Oberhauser link.  That will always bug me.  They even screwed up that twist...twice!  The first time, we don't recognize Oberhauser since we didn't see his face on the burned out photo.  Would have been better for the audience had we seen the face that's "not someone I'd forget."  Secondly, the Blofeld name means nothing to Bond but something beyond the fourth wall to the audience.  So the first twist means nothing to us and everything to Bond, the second has the opposite problem.

[Surrie]

Remember the sniper rifle Craig eyes when first entering Q's new digs?  After Bond unties Madeleine and they head for the boat, he stops to go off in another direction.  "Where are you going?"  she says, "Come on!"

 

This would have made me much happier!

[Dustin]

Yes, that magic Walther shot is quite ridiculous. Might have been even better if Bond had used Hinx' absurd double-barrelled Colt-on-steroids or whatever it's supposed to be.

[Surrie]

Colt-on-steroids

 

much like it's proprietor!?