473 replies to this topic

[The Shark]

I hear plenty of melody here, just not the long-lined, hummable stuff we're used to as Bond fans. Thomas Newman's SPECTRE is compelling, nuanced, witty and wonderfully orchestrated. I'm sorry it's not to your taste.

[Skull Kid]

As am I! I certainly don't want or plan to be negative, but film music and Bond music in particular is a big passion of mine.

 

Where you are hearing nuance and wit I just hear dreary dirge, and a lack of humour, suspense, excitement, romance or any emotion I like to be moved by within music. I'm glad you and others are enjoying it, although from a selfish point of view it worries me greatly that we will be served up more of the same in the future.

[The Shark]

Probably not. This is pretty much Mendes/Newman's aesthetic.

[MattofSteel]

Listening to Snow Plane. Damn, what a fun, propulsive cue! Classic Newman brass chorales, and some juicy dissonances.

 

Yes.

 

Have a feeling there'll be a lot of music not heard on the album. Gunbarrel, helicopter fight etc.

 

Yes.

 

My initial impressions:

 

• Good, but perhaps not great. Not a top tier Bond soundtrack, for what by all accounts is shaping up to be a top tier film (or at least, a top tier Bond cinematic experience). 
• Certainly a "bigger and brassier" sound overall than the Skyfall score. 
• Also a much fuller sound.
• I'd call it boldly "Newman-esque." Atmosphere and ambience everywhere - some of it repetitive, other parts downright complex and enthralling.
• ^That's interesting to me, but also makes it incredibly difficult to get a handle (yet) on what this score's central identity is. The (presumably) love/Madelaine motif stands out to me, as does one consistent thematic element that I suspect is associated with Fiennes and the MI6 brigade (based on the clips we've seen). Not much else that's immediately retentive.
• Genuinely surprised by how much of the Skyfall score Newman recycled. I'll wait to see the film before judging the re-usage overall because, as of right now, I suspect a lot of it was by design to emphasize specific narrative echoes that they wanted to highlight.
• I can't lie when it comes to that last point. While I'm intrigued by Skyfall's re-use, I'm crushingly disappointed as a (rather hardcore) Bond music fan that we're not getting a fresh, unique musical identity for SPECTRE. I'm almost sad to admit that the anticipation for those honestly takes up about 50% of my interest in new Bond films - but I'm sure I'm in a niche crowd in that respect. It's especially grating considering what a hypothetically broad musical canvas existed for the composer in this particular situation (with the reintroduction of such an iconic Bond franchise element in play). Colossally missed opportunity IMO, and - although I know this is going to become a common criticism and I hate bandwagon jumping - it just comes off as incredibly lazy and lacking creativity. 
• Related: I did, however, think "The Moors" was actually one of Skyfall's most underrated tracks, so to hear it basically expanded into a full-blown suite of (presumably) climactic music here is very interesting to me.
• I'm really liking "Snow Plane" - Newman has an uncanny ability to match vehicle-based action sequences with music that actually evokes the kinetic sounds of the vehicles being used. I can practically hear spinning rotors in his score.
• ^That being said, there (sadly) isn't a single track on this entire score that stands out to me as memorably and fist-pumpingly as "The Bloody Shot" and "She's Mine" did for Skyfall.
• Honourable mentions do, however, go to: Los Muertos Vivos Estan, Vauxhaull Bridge, Backfire, Snow Plane, Secret Room, L'Americain, and Crows Klinik (which I suspect is the closest thing we have to "Bond arrival music" when he appears at the Alpine facility), 
• Like Shark said - I also suspect at least a few significant moments (more than likely containing celebratory-sounding Bond theme) have been held back off this release.

 

Immediate and not-nearly-considered enough verdict: 7/10.

 

Pros: Atmosphere and emotion, rich and boldly complex sound, elevated usage of the brass, Newman's mastery of nuance, intelligent incorporation of the Bond theme (which I suspect is even more prominent in the film).

 

Cons: Really only the significant re-use of the Skyfall score, which I'm only calling a con because it seems happen most frequently at what are (at least musically) key moments in SPECTRE - the very moments in a new Bond film when you expect to be musically surprised the most. This con is, of course, subject to later reconsideration once the film has been viewed, because if it fits the thing like a glove, who cares?

 

EDIT/PREDICTION: This is a score that's absolutely going to grow on people. 

[sharpshooter]

EDIT/PREDICTION: This is a score that's absolutely going to grow on people. 

Thanks for the impressions, Matt. I've yet to find a quiet place to listen to the full soundtrack, but I'm guessing your above prediction will ring true. I remember listening to Skyfall in 2012 and being rather underwhelmed. But with time I grew to absolutely love it. Especially when hearing it in context of the film. 

[MattofSteel]

 

EDIT/PREDICTION: This is a score that's absolutely going to grow on people. 

Thanks for the impressions, Matt. I've yet to find a quiet place to listen to the full soundtrack, but I'm guessing your above prediction will ring true. I remember listening to Skyfall in 2012 and being rather underwhelmed. But with time I grew to absolutely love it. Especially when hearing it in context of the film. 

 

 

Very much. Moments that I found uninspiring or underwhelming on first Skyfall listen have grown to be quiet iconic for me, personally.

 

One sole, major disappointment for me with this one: of all the Skyfall-repeated moments, the amazing heavy brass from the "digger/train" moment in The Bloody Shot wasn't one of them. Some damned fine Bond scoring, that.

 

But on second listen through the SPECTRE score, I'm already itching to elevate the rating I gave it. Some of those highlight tracks I called out really are incredible - and the entire thing, overall, is just downright propulsive. Even the ambience. It feels like it's always moving, always adding energy. Very emotionally rich. And some of the little, nuanced instrumental inclusions and touches I'm really starting to appreciate. 

 

It may not be alpine horns and twangy guitar, but this is a score I can see playing very comfortably in the background a lot, for a long time.

[MattofSteel]

UPDATE: Ok, starting to absolutely love it. Ironic that some people are calling the film Craig's Thunderball. I define that score by how ambient, rich, and layered Barry's sound was in it - the more I listen to SPECTRE, the more and more I'm realizing it evokes some of those same qualities. The film might be Craig's Thunderball, the score might be Newman's Thunderball.

[SecretAgentFan]

Let me explain:  when I first heard the SKYFALL score I was underwhelmed.  Then I saw the film and thought: Newman really did something interesting here that absolutely serves the images.  After a few more spins of the soundtrack I began to wholeheartedly love and adore it.

 

Now, listening to the SPECTRE score for the first time I already love it.  I think Newman wonderfully adapts all the classic Bond elements for a more contemporary way of scoring, mixing it with his own personal style.

 

When I first heard "Backfire" on the radio show I was disappointed by the use of parts of SKYFALL.

 

Indeed, Newman alludes to his SKYFALL score in a few other tracks here - but this is not a copy and paste-job at all.  Instead it´s an intriguing bridge to SKYFALL and a clever use of motifs which have started there but now are developed further, always in service of the new story.  

 

I have to listen to this score a few more times to take in all the details and nuances that Newman layered in (as always, he composes not just surface melodies but opens them up to give them more texture and levels, offering the listener to discover something new again and again).  But already I am certain that SPECTRE belongs to the absolutely great scores within the history of Bond films.

 

And really - the use of the Bond theme is in almost every track.  Those prefer to hear the theme be blasted out in its full version should ask themselves how often Barry actually used the theme in that way - and how often he rather experimented with it or concentrated on new themes.

 

One more thing: I love how Newman conjurs a ghostly atmosphere through the use of choir and understatement.  To get a score for an action movie that seeks out passages of quiet melancholy and restrained intensity is definitely unusual in these days.  And (thankfully) very old-school.  Compare this score with Arnold´s TWINE and DAD, heck even with his CR and QOS (both scores which I like a lot) and you just have to acknowledge that Newman is in another league here, delivering much more interesting work.

[Walecs]

I could forgive such a generic and bland score, had Newman incorporated WOTW in the score. What a terrible composer.

[mrmoon]

There's some good stuff I'm hearing, but I don't want to listen to the whole soundtrack (far from it). I'd rather wait to hear it in the context of the film. Interested to see whether the multiple SF cues that have been reprised work, or take me out of the scene. I listen to the soundtracks over and over, likewise watching the films, musical cues immediately conjure up an image. It's going to be a strange experience. 

[deth]

Nice call back to Barry's Bond theme usage around 40 seconds into Westminster...

 

I've now done a first run through of the score. I don't like some of the Skyfall recycling, and I agree with Matt's initial sentiment regarding that stuff. The most offending usage of it is surely the last quarter of Backfire which is there almost unchanged from SF.

 

On the other hand, SF's score is rather cleverly intertwined with new material in other areas... particularly SF's ambient pieces like "Skyfall". 

 

While I do miss the bombastic use of the Bond theme, I think it would be tonally out of place in a score like this. As has now been pointed out, it's used in several of the tracks, but never overtly... but enough to know it's Bond music. That said, my favorite track is still Los Muertos Vivos Estan, simply due to the prominence of the theme we love.

 

I have a feeling this score will work superbly well in the film... very much looking forward!

[Skull Kid]

I'm honestly astounded by some of the positive commentary on this score, having listened maybe 3 or 4 times through it now.

 

Creating ambient soundscapes is not hard at all: Making them compelling, original or remotely interesting is. These are certainly not any of those things, and the fact that nearly every single bloody track on this thing revert back to the soundscape stuff at points (if not use them throughout) is completely infuriating. It means that anytime things threaten to pick up any steam whatsoever the momentum is completely lost.Someone earlier commented how propulsive the score was even in its ambient moments.. I utterly disagree, the momentum is lost time and time again to swathes of reverb and generic chord washes.

 

Someone also compared the ambience to John Barry's Thunderball. Now i understand where you are coming from, but Barry's repetitive flute lines and other atmospheric material are hypnotic and captivating in their repetitiveness, with inventive orchestration. Newmans stuff is just washy chords with occasional spotty notes flung over the top when he can be bothered...

 

As for the action material I don't feel like its shortcomings even have to be argued! Stringing together a bunch of semiquavers in dirge-y rhythms consistently is not exciting, even when dissonant horn clusters are added over the top.Again, this is incredibly easy stuff to write. People criticised Arnold for a 'wall of sound' action approach, but this is exactly the same thing, sans any captivating melody going on.   

 

I do think, to offer a positive, that his romantic string material at least shows some actual emotion and effort. The Madeline theme is the best thing here and repeated nicely in the End titles. I wish it was called back to more throughout, but Newman doesn't seem to do themes or variation. It would have been wonderful, for example, to hear that falling melody from Madeline used within an action scene context. 

 

Anyway, those who are enjoying it, continue to do so. i am just completely bemused by what there is to take from this. One persons subtlety is another persons bland, i guess.

[Orion]

Just reached Madeleine, really enjoying it so far.

[sharpshooter]

I've listened to the score once through. At the moment I think Skyfall's score is stronger, and has more standout moments. But I'm nonetheless a fan of Newman's second Bond soundtrack. I think the Skyfall content present in SPECTRE is merely connective tissue, a bridge which leads into new territory. And make no mistake, there is new territory explored here. Case in point, 'The Eternal City' has the 'Brave New World' introduction but merges into a new choral arrangement - and then it turns ghostly and sombre. There's a lot of ambient pieces here again, possibly more so than Skyfall. I have no doubt whatsoever this is going to correspond with the visuals perfectly, and will come alive even more. 

[Harmsway]

I think this is a slightly stronger score than Skyfall. I definitely prefer the action cues here. The Skyfall material is not overused, and in most places it's altered in terrific ways.

Serra's GoldenEye is still my favorite post-Barry score, but these Newman scores have been a welcome addition to the Bond score collection.

I will note, however, that I'd like a new composer for the next film.

[Ace Roberts]

iTunes finally posted the clips here in the US.  I have listened through it several times now, and I find it grows on you with each iteration.  It's not my favorite score of his, those would be Road to Perdition and the new Bridge of Spies, but I do like the themes for the two leading ladies. I just need to hear the music in the context of the scenes before giving an opinion. 

[deth]

iTunes finally posted the clips here in the US.  I have listened through it several times now, and I find it grows on you with each iteration.  It's not my favorite score of his, those would be Road to Perdition and the new Bridge of Spies, but I do like the themes for the two leading ladies. I just need to hear the music in the context of the scenes before giving an opinion. 

 

You can hear the full soundtrack on Spotify, if you want.

[The Shark]

As for the action material I don't feel like its shortcomings even have to be argued!
 
(...)
 
Again, this is incredibly easy stuff to write.

 
It's not. As a composer this kind of material appears to be deceptively simple on the surface, but in a track like Snow Plane there is a careful contrapuntal dialogue between the moto perpetuo voices, the brass triads (of which one could pen an interesting paper using Neo-Riemannian theory to explain their elusive tonality) and a pedal point, and the interaction between this and pre-recorded soloists and electronic sequences. Compared to Arnold's often sloppy, overwrought and needlessly meandering action writing, it's like night and day.

 

I don't think there's anything generic about Newman's harmonic language and sense of modality. The soundscapes he creates are wonderfully evocative with ever-shifting acoustic-electronic textures. Tracks like Vauxhall Bridge hit that important mix of cool and sexy, yet most importantly--whimsical. Something that usually escaped Arnold.

 

And for the record, Barry's Thunderball is my favourite Bond score

[Ace Roberts]

 

iTunes finally posted the clips here in the US.  I have listened through it several times now, and I find it grows on you with each iteration.  It's not my favorite score of his, those would be Road to Perdition and the new Bridge of Spies, but I do like the themes for the two leading ladies. I just need to hear the music in the context of the scenes before giving an opinion. 

 

You can hear the full soundtrack on Spotify, if you want.

 

Not in the states yet, unfortunately. 

[sharpshooter]

'Vauxhaul Bridge' is nice twinkling piece of mystery. It's also present in "L' Americain', for example, and makes for pleasant listening. 'Silver Wraith' also has a mysterious vibe.

 

'The Eternal City' is fast becoming one of my favourites - it's like the embodiment of the film's title. Creepy and ghostly. And then we move into the elegance of 'Donna Lucia', which is easily one of my favourite cues on the soundtrack'. Cues like this are what Bond movies are all about. Same goes for 'Madeleine'. 

 

'Backfire' is my favourite action cue on the soundtrack. 'Snow Plane' has to be mentioned as well, though. It's an energetic piece and never lets up. 'Tempus Fugit' is a cue on the energetic side as well. 

 

This score has emotion, at the moment I pinpoint 'The Secret Room' as a highlight. It has a stirring ending as well. 

 

I think bringing back 'The Moors' was a fine decision. It's used best during 'Westminster Bridge', in my opinion.

 

The instrumental of Writing's on the Wall is simply lovely, and I truly hope it's in the film. I imagine it could work really well as Bond and Madeleine board the train, or are driven to Oberhauser's lair. It could be an epic and tender moment. In any case, it's one of the highlights on the album.

[SecretAgentFan]

 

As for the action material I don't feel like its shortcomings even have to be argued!
 
(...)
 
Again, this is incredibly easy stuff to write.

 
It's not. As a composer this kind of material appears to be deceptively simple on the surface, but in a track like Snow Plane there is a careful contrapuntal dialogue between the moto perpetuo voices, the brass triads (of which one could pen an interesting paper using Neo-Riemannian theory to explain their elusive tonality) and a pedal point, and the interaction between this and pre-recorded soloists and electronic sequences. Compared to Arnold's often sloppy, overwrought and needlessly meandering action writing, it's like night and day.

 

I don't think there's anything generic about Newman's harmonic language and sense of modality. The soundscapes he creates are wonderfully evocative with ever-shifting acoustic-electronic textures. Tracks like Vauxhall Bridge hit that important mix of cool and sexy, yet most importantly--whimsical. Something that usually escaped Arnold.

 

And for the record, Barry's Thunderball is my favourite Bond score

 

 

Well said!

 

I think it´s perfectly fine if someone does not like Newman´s work or prefers previous Bond scores.  But to mix up personal preference with an absolute statement on a composer´s quality is... well, saying more about the person than the composer.

[Grard Bond]

Got the cd this afternoon and listened to it twice.

It's more of the same, recycling stuff from Skyfall, incl that horrible action newage theme (if you can call it a theme, ofcourse).

Overall I think it's better than his Skyfall score, but not a lot.

For me the peak is the first track and track 18 Day of the death the worst track. That's not something to ad to a soundtrack album, why not the gunbarrel instead?

 

What I find good about the score is a sometimes almost ghostly (or if you want "spectral") atmosphere, which creates expectations.

Edited by Grard Bond, 23 October 2015 - 04:40 PM.

[The Shark]

track 18 Day of the death the worst track

 

I agree. Why couldn't we get the gunbarrel instead?

[Skull Kid]

 

 

As for the action material I don't feel like its shortcomings even have to be argued!
 
(...)
 
Again, this is incredibly easy stuff to write.

 
It's not. As a composer this kind of material appears to be deceptively simple on the surface, but in a track like Snow Plane there is a careful contrapuntal dialogue between the moto perpetuo voices, the brass triads (of which one could pen an interesting paper using Neo-Riemannian theory to explain their elusive tonality) and a pedal point, and the interaction between this and pre-recorded soloists and electronic sequences. Compared to Arnold's often sloppy, overwrought and needlessly meandering action writing, it's like night and day.

 

I don't think there's anything generic about Newman's harmonic language and sense of modality. The soundscapes he creates are wonderfully evocative with ever-shifting acoustic-electronic textures. Tracks like Vauxhall Bridge hit that important mix of cool and sexy, yet most importantly--whimsical. Something that usually escaped Arnold.

 

And for the record, Barry's Thunderball is my favourite Bond score

 

 

Well said!

 

I think it´s perfectly fine if someone does not like Newman´s work or prefers previous Bond scores.  But to mix up personal preference with an absolute statement on a composer´s quality is... well, saying more about the person than the composer.

 

The Shark, I can't argue with your reasoning, and clearly you speak musical language very well, which obviously I respect. Like I say, I'm not trying to put others enjoyment down, I'm just expressing my own disappointments. That's the purpose of forums, right? I just prefer to use my ear and instincts when it comes to music, theory is interesting but there is no scientific formula to good music, it's how it appeals to us as individuals. I always look for something which surprises me, grabs my attention, or moves me in some way. For the vast majority of the time, Newmans Bond scores don't. And I genuinely feel as if I could do better, or at the least similar, which is a problem, as I'd never proclaim to be any sort of musical svengali, but I know what I like and what I consider impressive or difficult to compose.

 

As for this:

 

 

But to mix up personal preference with an absolute statement on a composer´s quality is... well, saying more about the person than the composer.

 

 

 

 

I don't know if that is intended as an attack on me or what, SecretAgentFan, but as you said this yourself merely posts before:

 

Compare this score with Arnold´s TWINE and DAD, heck even with his CR and QOS (both scores which I like a lot) and you just have to acknowledge that Newman is in another league here, delivering much more interesting work.

 

 

I would say you're just as guilty as what you're accusing me of. Obviously everything stated here is opinion, so I see no need to single mine out in a negative context. 

Sorry I don't know why those above quotes have hidden themselves, I'm not a regular poster to forums. 

Edited by Skull Kid, 23 October 2015 - 05:12 PM.

[deth]

 And I genuinely feel as if I could do better, or at the least similar, which is a problem, as I'd never proclaim to be any sort of musical svengali, but I know what I like and what I consider impressive or difficult to compose.

 

I think that's why you were being accused of confusing subjective.... with factual reasons. It doesn't really matter if you consider something easy to compose if in fact it isn't. Therefore you can't include that as a judgement on the score. 

[Armand Fancypants]

I will note, however, that I'd like a new composer for the next film.

 

In the event that Mendes was compelled to return yet again, I'd say let him retain his composer... but I think EON have now (thankfully) crossed the Rubicon for directorial control. Whoever directs it should be able to choose the composer, basically.

[Skull Kid]

 

 

 

 And I genuinely feel as if I could do better, or at the least similar, which is a problem, as I'd never proclaim to be any sort of musical svengali, but I know what I like and what I consider impressive or difficult to compose.

 

I think that's why you were being accused of confusing subjective.... with factual reasons. It doesn't really matter if you consider something easy to compose if in fact it isn't. Therefore you can't include that as a judgement on the score. 

 

 

 

Fair enough, though I feel I'm getting pulled on semantics here whilst its absolutely fine for other posters, particularly my accuser, to state their subjective opinion as fact and get away with it. They brought my character into question in seemingly quite a derogatory way for doing THE SAME EXACT THING they did themselves in a previous post. Well, good for them.

 

Anyway, in future, I'll not bother to expand upon my thoughts (I did actually go into details as to why I thought the music was easy to compose, but let's ignore those), and stick to bland, simple statements, fittingly much like Mr Newmans compositional style, so people here should approve:

 

'In my opinion, this music is not very good'. Well, that was a lot easier for sure.

 

(Sorry if I'm seeming antagonistic, I just dislike hypocrisy)

Edited by Skull Kid, 23 October 2015 - 11:26 PM.

[SecretAgentFan]

You can express your opinions as much as you want - but don´t be surprised if your opinions get criticized or called out as based on wrong, childish observations.

 

If you dislike hypocrisy you will understand.

[sharpshooter]

I've been listening to this soundtrack a lot, and I'm definitely a fan. I do like what David Arnold did with TND, CR and QoS - but I really admire what Eric Serra did with Goldeneye, and Newman with SF and SP. I still prefer Newman to Serra. I think Newman provides a mature, introspective vibe to the films without sacrificing the elegance of yesteryear. 

[Guy Haines]

I've been listening to this soundtrack a lot, and I'm definitely a fan. I do like what David Arnold did with TND, CR and QoS - but I really admire what Eric Serra did with Goldeneye, and Newman with SF and SP. I still prefer Newman to Serra. I think Newman provides a mature, introspective vibe to the films without sacrificing the elegance of yesteryear.

I've just listened to some of it again this morning and like it even more than yesterday.

True, there are one or two references back to the Skyfall score - mostly ones I liked the first time around such as the end of Backfire - but most of it sounds original to me. And it isn't as if other composers didn't re-use themes in subsequent films - even "the guv'nor" as David Arnold calls him, the late John Barry, did so, the most notable example being the 007 theme which permeates my favourite score, Thunderball.

Particularly like the first two tracks - the first sounds very much like Bond without being the full Bond theme, and the second, Vauxhall Bridge sounds quite mysterious. And I like his two themes for the leading ladies.

I think Newman has done an even better job with SPECTRE than with Skyfall. Makes me anxious to see how his score works with the film - which, of course I will be doing on Monday evening!