1894 replies to this topic

[delfloria]

Any chance of getting back on subject? I wonder what really happened so that an Arnold arrangement of the Bond theme was used?

[SecretAgentFan]

I don't know why they used Arnold's arrangement but it seems absurd to not have Newman do it. Therefore it seems more likely that they decided to use more of the Bond theme after Newman had finished his job.

And by the way, The Shark is right about me.
And he seems to be a professional musician so I respect his perspective on Arnold even if I like Arnold's work.

I would love to hear The Shark's take of the Bond theme , too...

[QOS4EVER]

Its lovely that we have professionals like SAF and The Shark on board

[junkanoo]

Its lovely that we have professionals like SAF and The Shark on board

Lovely.

[Glockenspiel]

SKYFALL soundtrack is going to be available on iTunes (10.19).
31 cues.
Wait and hear...

[gkgyver]

Shark, I don't undertstand why you criticise David Arnold for having "one foot in the 60s".

For better or worse, that's where the Bond sound comes from, it is engrained in the consciousness of the public and, again for better or worse, nobody is ever going to completely reinvent that wheel.
Do you criticise John Williams for having one foot in the 70s for the Star Wars prequels? Are you postulating a modernisation of the Star Wars main titles to make it sound "current"? I don't think so. If anything, they could have more than one foot in the 70s. Because that's where the Star Wars sound comes from, and nobody is ever going to change that.
They will stop making Bond films before a composer will think about abanding the classic Bond sound completely.

People watch Bond films because they have certain elements. They don't want a different coloured version of Jason Bourne or Sherlock Holmes, they want James Bond. And people listen to Bond music because it has certain elements that are classic Bond. Not Bourne, not Zimmer, not anything else, but James Bond.

Neither do I understand why you so desperately want a completely modernised version of the Bond theme. I don't even know what you mean. Didn't Moby or Oakenfold fit the bill?
If you find the cymbals at the beginning of the CR Bond theme "ridiculous", listen to the one in Quantum Of Solace, it doesn't have them.

[delfloria]

Ahhhhhh...... Somehow I don't think the Arnold cues will be among them.

What gkgyver said.

[sharpshooter]

Like I said before, it's as if they are establishing the Bond theme heard in CR as Craig's official verion of the theme.

Yes, I agree. And remember, the Bond theme in CR isn't truly launched into until the screen fades to black and the credits hit. Here we're getting it with live action footage.

[gkgyver]

One of the problems Arnold does have is simple overscoring.

It is also hardly true that Arnold's scores never changed for Brosnan or Craig. The World Is Not Enough and Quantum Of Solace are as different from each other as From Russia With Love and Moonraker are. Same sound, different texture.
Speaking of those, Barry uses the 007 theme in FRWL in almost exactly the same fashion as in Moonraker, almost 15 years later. I don't hear complaints about Barry not upgrading there either.

[MattofSteel]

SKYFALL soundtrack is going to be available on iTunes (10.19).
31 cues.
Wait and hear...

Where are you reading that? I thought the release was pushed to November 6th.

[Vauxhall]

Swiss release is expected on Friday according to Switzerland iTunes: https://itunes.apple.....&ign-mpt=uo=2

UK iTunes release still expected to be Monday 29th October.

[MattofSteel]

Ah. So. A pirated Thomas Newman Skyfall OST will be available Friday, then.

Given this and the release date gap, I'm starting to wonder if Sony legitimately has any idea how the internet works.

[Rich Douglas]

... clearly they dont. I'd love to be able to check out the score on friday.

[delfloria]

How are you going to check out the score on Friday here in the US when it's only being released in Switzerland on Friday?


Just kidding.

By the way Rich, your instrumental of the SKYFALL theme was pretty awesome.

[JimmyBond]

Let's be careful what we reveal on the forums regarding piracy please.

[MattofSteel]

Second defloria's comment. Rich, that mix was terrific.

[The Shark]

Do you criticise John Williams for having one foot in the 70s for the Star Wars prequels? Are you postulating a modernisation of the Star Wars main titles to make it sound "current"?

Apples and oranges here. Williams never changed the STAR WARS main titles beyond the minutest additions, whereas Barry constantly updated the gunbarrel music and Bond theme as the series progressed. A better comparison using STAR WARS as an example, would be Williams bring a whole new modernist angle on the scores, with THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and RETURN OF THE JEDI. Tone clusters, klangfarbenmelodie, tone pyramids, aleatoricism, extended techniques, and electronics became part of the "dark side" of the STAR WARS sound (this is rarely noted in academic literature, where the orthodox opinion is that STAR WARS was a complete change in direction after the avant-garde, pop and jazz scores of the 60s and 70s. That might be true to some extent with the first film, but not for the sequels and prequels)

Also, STAR WARS has been Williams's baby from day one. Other composers have had a crack at video games (Joel McNeely's SHADOWS OF THE EMPIRE being the best) and TV shows, but never the movies.

So no, I don't think that's a fair comparison.

They will stop making Bond films before a composer will think about abanding the classic Bond sound completely.

Straw man. I've never asked for a composer to completely abandon the "Bond sound" (this needs to be defined) - rather reinterpret Bond music and provide an original take. This is what Erc Serra and Bill Conti did, and what Arnold hinted at in QUANTUM OF SOLACE (likely due to Forster's influence).

Neither do I understand why you so desperately want a completely modernised version of the Bond theme. I don't even know what you mean. Didn't Moby or Oakenfold fit the bill?

Kinda, but they were never heard in the films. I'd rather have heard a Moby or Chemical Brothers Bond score in the late 90s/early 00s than David Arnold, but there's hindsight for you.

If you find the cymbals at the beginning of the CR Bond theme "ridiculous", listen to the one in Quantum Of Solace, it doesn't have them.

I wish they'd used that version in SKYFALL. A huge improvement over "The Name's Bond...", IMO, and not just because of the cymbals.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

Borderline off topic, but is the Quantum of Solace version available for purchase any where? I've been able to find it on youtube, but its not a part of the soundtrack CD.

I agree it beats the Casino Royale version.

[The Shark]

Good news for fans of Serra's GOLDENEYE and the anti-Arnold gang - Musical reactionary (and Arnold fan) Christian Clemmensen of filmtracks.com (who dislikes many of my favourite scores) is disappointed.

Christian Clemmensen - "Skyfall: Initial reaction to full listen"

Some early notes about the Skyfall score album:

1. Very long album that drags in several places. Significant downtime and vaguely exotic atmospherics occupy entire tracks. The score cue "Skyfall" is damn near inaudible for its 2:33. Same with "Modigliani," "Enjoying Death," "Voluntary Retirement," "Close Shave," and "Someone Usually Dies." That's a lot of nearly dead airtime.

2. Bond theme not utilized fully or hinted more than a few token insertions. Only one full statement of the theme in "traditional" form (first minute of "Breadcrumbs"). Pacing in that one performance is hurried. The full fanfare for brass is not heard once on the album.

3. Tom Newman has lost the ambitious jazz and pop elements of the franchise's past and sticks to more linear action structures closer to post-2000's Hollywood norms, including standard ostinatos.

4. Action cues are largely tepid. Too few lines of activity in the orchestra on many occasions. The exception is "She's Mine," which is the Bond theme-infused cue we've heard in the train sequence, I believe.

5. There are serious flow issues with the score. The action stumbles through spurts and does not sustain itself in David Arnold fashion. The electric guitar-laden "Grand Bazaar, Istanbul" tries to emulate the usual kick- Arnold opening, but it doesn't feature enough ball-busting force to be effective.

6. The Adele "Skyfall" song melody is heard in masked fragments throughout (though that's possibly attributable to its close adherence to the Bond theme itself, which Newman might instead be hinting at). Only one obvious reference exists; "Komodo Dragon" is this throwback "location cue" to the Barry/Arnold formula and is, not surprisingly, the highlight of the score.

7. The mixture of symphonic, electronic, and exotic elements is very good, an action cue like "The Bloody Shot" balancing them well despite sputtering through its sequences. The lack of fluidity is a bit baffling.

8. A lot of tapped cymbal rhythms... the best alternative to the outward jazz to infuse some ambient coolness. Newman tries to use a solitary, thumping electric bass for the same purpose, but it's too muted to have much effect.

9. The score lacks its own dominant theme, and it does not clearly reference any of Arnold's ideas from the Quantum-related films.

10. Noble horn interludes, possibly for "queen and country," are an almost awkward diversion in "Voluntary Retirement" and "Mother."

11. No narrative development in the score whatsoever. No transitional location cues other than "Komodo Dragon" (and maybe "The Chimera") and no clear momentum swings or satisfying finale. Lots of stuttering crescendos. The album closes with the disappointing exotic rhythms of "Adrenaline," almost something Mychael Danna would write for a lesser drama.

12. The only romance in the score is "Severine," which is extremely underplayed. The violins seem undermixed in many cues, oddly.

13. Obviously no title song on the score-only album. This is simply unacceptable.

Overall, the score is sufficient. Parts are quite enjoyable. Newman has made an attempt to incorporate the franchise's sound with his own, but without anywhere near the same success as Arnold. Newman doesn't capture the established tone of his predecessors and really misses the mark in the romance department. There's none of the expressed turmoil and tragedy associated with the character, and the score is mostly devoid of truly gripping suspense. The action is not as snazzy as Arnold's (don't expect much wailing brass), but it suffices.

More interestingly, Newman doesn't really show any enthusiasm for the concept in this work. Much of his music here is procedural. He doesn't try particularly hard to leave his comfort zone, and that zone isn't exactly similar to the Bond sound to begin with. Arnold, on the other hand, slipped into the franchise without much alteration to his style necessary, and you could tell in each of his scores, even the poorer ones, that he loved what he was doing. He's a fan. Conversely, there is no passion from Newman. The lack of passion is devastating.

The title song easily out-classes the score. Don't be surprised if you find yourself enjoying about 10-15 minutes of Newman's action material and being bored by most of the rest. While Newman shouldn't be flogged for this entry (in fact, it might earn 3 stars from me), I suspect there will be significant fan demand for Arnold to return to the franchise.

I'm not sure when I'll get to a formal review of Skyfall... That's why I wanted to post these initial notes. Things are hectic here, and judging from the screaming in the attic at the moment, I do believe that one of my sons just pissed on the carpet. As Mitt Romney suggested in his rather humorous loss at last night's debate, I clearly need a binder full of women to help out around this place!

Christian

[QOS4EVER]

Good news for fans of Serra's GOLDENEYE and the anti-Arnold gang - Musical reactionary (and Arnold fan) Christian Clemmensen of filmtracks.com (who dislikes many of my favourite scores) is disappointed.

I did not quite get you !
How is this good news for the Anti Arnold fans.Doesen't this proove all along that Arnold's score would have been better ?

Ah. So. A pirated Thomas Newman Skyfall OST will be available Friday, then.

Given this and the release date gap, I'm starting to wonder if Sony legitimately has any idea how the internet works.

That made me chuckle

[Mr Teddy Bear]

I believe Shark is saying in his own special way that, if nothing else, the reviewer is telling us Newman's work doesn't appeal to Arnold sensibilities.

[QOS4EVER]

I believe Shark is saying in his own special way that if the same guy is 'wrong' about Arnold being good then he is likely also 'wrong' about Newman's Skyfall being not all that.

If anything, that prooves that Arnold is better.

[The Shark]

I believe Shark is saying in his own special way that if the same guy is 'wrong' about Arnold being good then he is likely also 'wrong' about Newman's Skyfall being not all that.

If anything, that prooves that Arnold is better.

Why?

[QOS4EVER]

I believe Shark is saying in his own special way that if the same guy is 'wrong' about Arnold being good then he is likely also 'wrong' about Newman's Skyfall being not all that.

If anything, that prooves that Arnold is better.

Why?

Well,
Because you dont like Arnold doesen't necessarily make him bad or make whoever finds his score better wrong.
Unlike you he has heard the whole thing and hence my statement "if anything, that prooves Arnold is better"

[The Shark]

I believe Shark is saying in his own special way that if the same guy is 'wrong' about Arnold being good then he is likely also 'wrong' about Newman's Skyfall being not all that.

If anything, that prooves that Arnold is better.

Why?

Well,
Because you dont like Arnold doesen't necessarily make him bad or make whoever finds his score better wrong.

I never said that.

[junkanoo]

Do you criticise John Williams for having one foot in the 70s for the Star Wars prequels? Are you postulating a modernisation of the Star Wars main titles to make it sound "current"?

Apples and oranges here. Williams never changed the STAR WARS main titles beyond the minutest additions, whereas Barry constantly updated the gunbarrel music and Bond theme as the series progressed.

The real apples and oranges comparison is that Williams wrote the SW Main Title. Monty Norman wrote the "James Bond Theme."

[sharpshooter]

I'm still excited about Newman's score, comments in the reviews haven't deterred me. As we know, Eric Serra didn't receive much positivity with his effort. And I like that one quite a bit.

[QOS4EVER]

I believe Shark is saying in his own special way that if the same guy is 'wrong' about Arnold being good then he is likely also 'wrong' about Newman's Skyfall being not all that.

If anything, that prooves that Arnold is better.

Why?

Well,
Because you dont like Arnold doesen't necessarily make him bad or make whoever finds his score better wrong.

I never said that.

well in your earlier post you had mentioned

Good news for fans of Serra's GOLDENEYE and the anti-Arnold gang - Musical reactionary (and Arnold fan) Christian Clemmensen of filmtracks.com (who dislikes many of my favourite scores) is disappointed.

I and Mr Teddy Bear assumed this was what you were trying to convey

I believe Shark is saying in his own special way that if the same guy is 'wrong' about Arnold being good then he is likely also 'wrong' about Newman's Skyfall being not all that.

and if thats not the point. like I mentioned earlier ,I dont understand how this is good news for the Anti Arnold gang.

PS: hadn't realised Mr Teddy bear had edited his earlier post.

Edited by QOS4EVER, 18 October 2012 - 01:08 PM.

[Glockenspiel]

SKYFALL soundtrack is going to be available on iTunes (10.19).
31 cues.
Wait and hear...

Where are you reading that? I thought the release was pushed to November 6th.

No, the release is october 10th

Ah. So. A pirated Thomas Newman Skyfall OST will be available Friday, then.

Given this and the release date gap, I'm starting to wonder if Sony legitimately has any idea how the internet works.

It's an official release, on iTunes... You'll have to but the whole album, for 9,99€.

[junkanoo]

Good news for fans of Serra's GOLDENEYE and the Arnold gang (editor: revised to make sense) - Musical reactionary (and Arnold fan) Christian Clemmensen of filmtracks.com (who dislikes many of my favourite scores) is disappointed.

Christian Clemmensen - "Skyfall: Initial reaction to full listen"

Some early notes about the Skyfall score album:

1. Very long album that drags in several places. Significant downtime and vaguely exotic atmospherics occupy entire tracks. The score cue "Skyfall" is damn near inaudible for its 2:33. Same with "Modigliani," "Enjoying Death," "Voluntary Retirement," "Close Shave," and "Someone Usually Dies." That's a lot of nearly dead airtime.

2. Bond theme not utilized fully or hinted more than a few token insertions. Only one full statement of the theme in "traditional" form (first minute of "Breadcrumbs"). Pacing in that one performance is hurried. The full fanfare for brass is not heard once on the album.

3. Tom Newman has lost the ambitious jazz and pop elements of the franchise's past and sticks to more linear action structures closer to post-2000's Hollywood norms, including standard ostinatos.

4. Action cues are largely tepid. Too few lines of activity in the orchestra on many occasions. The exception is "She's Mine," which is the Bond theme-infused cue we've heard in the train sequence, I believe.

5. There are serious flow issues with the score. The action stumbles through spurts and does not sustain itself in David Arnold fashion. The electric guitar-laden "Grand Bazaar, Istanbul" tries to emulate the usual kick- Arnold opening, but it doesn't feature enough ball-busting force to be effective.

6. The Adele "Skyfall" song melody is heard in masked fragments throughout (though that's possibly attributable to its close adherence to the Bond theme itself, which Newman might instead be hinting at). Only one obvious reference exists; "Komodo Dragon" is this throwback "location cue" to the Barry/Arnold formula and is, not surprisingly, the highlight of the score.

7. The mixture of symphonic, electronic, and exotic elements is very good, an action cue like "The Bloody Shot" balancing them well despite sputtering through its sequences. The lack of fluidity is a bit baffling.

8. A lot of tapped cymbal rhythms... the best alternative to the outward jazz to infuse some ambient coolness. Newman tries to use a solitary, thumping electric bass for the same purpose, but it's too muted to have much effect.

9. The score lacks its own dominant theme, and it does not clearly reference any of Arnold's ideas from the Quantum-related films.

10. Noble horn interludes, possibly for "queen and country," are an almost awkward diversion in "Voluntary Retirement" and "Mother."

11. No narrative development in the score whatsoever. No transitional location cues other than "Komodo Dragon" (and maybe "The Chimera") and no clear momentum swings or satisfying finale. Lots of stuttering crescendos. The album closes with the disappointing exotic rhythms of "Adrenaline," almost something Mychael Danna would write for a lesser drama.

12. The only romance in the score is "Severine," which is extremely underplayed. The violins seem undermixed in many cues, oddly.

13. Obviously no title song on the score-only album. This is simply unacceptable.

Overall, the score is sufficient. Parts are quite enjoyable. Newman has made an attempt to incorporate the franchise's sound with his own, but without anywhere near the same success as Arnold. Newman doesn't capture the established tone of his predecessors and really misses the mark in the romance department. There's none of the expressed turmoil and tragedy associated with the character, and the score is mostly devoid of truly gripping suspense. The action is not as snazzy as Arnold's (don't expect much wailing brass), but it suffices.

More interestingly, Newman doesn't really show any enthusiasm for the concept in this work. Much of his music here is procedural. He doesn't try particularly hard to leave his comfort zone, and that zone isn't exactly similar to the Bond sound to begin with. Arnold, on the other hand, slipped into the franchise without much alteration to his style necessary, and you could tell in each of his scores, even the poorer ones, that he loved what he was doing. He's a fan. Conversely, there is no passion from Newman. The lack of passion is devastating.

The title song easily out-classes the score. Don't be surprised if you find yourself enjoying about 10-15 minutes of Newman's action material and being bored by most of the rest. While Newman shouldn't be flogged for this entry (in fact, it might earn 3 stars from me), I suspect there will be significant fan demand for Arnold to return to the franchise.

I'm not sure when I'll get to a formal review of Skyfall... That's why I wanted to post these initial notes. Things are hectic here, and judging from the screaming in the attic at the moment, I do believe that one of my sons just pissed on the carpet. As Mitt Romney suggested in his rather humorous loss at last night's debate, I clearly need a binder full of women to help out around this place!

Christian

Shark, thanks for the post.

Candidly, Clemmensen's critique seems odd. Lots of "dead airtime?" Disappointing "largely tepid" action and problems with the romantic cues too? No narrative development "whatsoever?" Rather luke-warm praise for the few tracks Clemmensen does like. Thinks the fans will like 10-15 minutes of a "very long album" ..... yet overall he thinks the score is "sufficient" ??? I find it quite odd that he makes these negative comments (plus many more) and then labels the effort "sufficient." Perhaps we have quite a different understanding of what the word means as his comments reflect (overall) a largely disappointing effort.

I'm also not a fan of the guys that get out the early review about something to get gain attention yet fall back on the old 'this is not a formal review' ploy. Say it or don't say it - but if you do say it ... own it.