319 replies to this topic

[The Shark]

Gimme a break! The score is extremely effective in giving the film its character, and is far more than just "Ladies First" played over and over again, as some paint it.

[freemo]

Mr. Arnold had been a great servant of the series, and clearly one with plently of fans, but honestly, I don't think anyone (aside from Ken Adam and John Barry) in any field has more than two or three or four Bond's in them. There have been lots of really talented people work on the Bond films, but alot of them stayed on too long and did to many (note the 80s plateau in particular). What would he give us in his sixth Bond score that we haven't heard in the preceding five? I think the Bond films need to continually inject new talent into the crew. The worst thing the Bond movies can do is become "samey".

[The Shark]

Mr. Arnold had been a great servant of the series, and clearly one with plently of fans, but honestly, I don't think anyone (aside from Ken Adam and John Barry) in any field as more than two or three or four Bond's in them. There have been lots of really talented people work on the Bond films, but alot of them stayed on too long and did to many (note the 80s plateau in particular). What would he give us in his sixth Bond score that we haven't heard in the preceding five? I think the Bond films need to continually inject new talent into the crew. The worst thing the Bond movies can do is become "samey".

Very well said.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

I love the identity Eric Sierra gives GoldenEye. He was great as a once off, but doing more probably would've spoiled that. I enjoyed the last couple of scores, but I feel Bond is ready for a new take and Skyfall could be something special rather than the next chapter in Arnold's playbook.

[univex]

I love the identity Eric Sierra gives GoldenEye. He was great as a once off, but doing more probably would've spoiled that. I enjoyed the last couple of scores, but I feel Bond is ready for a new take and Skyfall could be something special rather than the next chapter in Arnold's playbook.

My feelings exactly Teddy!

[MattofSteel]

I've been harsh on Serra in the past - truth be told, there are some parts of his GE that are downright wonderful. Cumulatively, I still can't quite get behind it though.

[Pussfeller]

The question is whether you prefer risky originality to blandly derivative consistency. Arnold is a competent composer, just as the remaining members of Queen are all competent musicians. It makes sense that Arnold would feel an affinity with the rump of Queen. He's constantly looking backwards, trying to "recapture" and pay homage to another man's work rather than create something of his own. I can understand being satisfied with him once we're stuck with him, since he's better than nothing and has never screwed up egregiously, but I can't fathom why anyone would be enthusiastic about him, to the point of lamenting the involvement of any other composer!

For me, it's enough that he's boring. For that reason, I would take almost anyone else for the next score. That's also why I prefer Eric Serra, even though Serra is obviously less competent in a technical sense, because at least Serra's score is interesting and distinctive. It gives GoldenEye something that Arnold's scores do not give to Brosnan's subsequent films. Arnold is the musical equivalent of an academic painter. He can handle himself, but to no purpose. His works are sleek, flat, and complacent. I don't know why people go on about QOS as if it marked a departure from this trend.

[univex]

I come from a long lineage of stuck-up musicians and had no choice but to be brought up in the music world since I was a young kid. So, since I fell for the Bond franchise - which was very soon in my life - , I always had great regard for the music of the films. Therefore, some things became primordial while considering the so called "Bond sound". Drums and loud horns, as being very Barrish, are very Bond to me, and I´ve found the recent films to be lacking on such things. Sometimes, Arnold is brilliant, that introduction to Montenegro was beautifully done, so was the Bond/Electra theme and the Vesper theme, and a couple more. Some action cues were also nice. But not since the drums and horns of FRWL and the 007 theme, there has been a music track to my liking. Arnold has been great to the series. Not sure if someone could have make it better, not sure someone will. Serra´s score had those drums all over, I guess that´s why I like it. Combine that with Arnold orchestral endevours, and I´d be happy. Oh how I wish Barry was still in the house.

I don't know why people go on about QOS as if it marked a departure from this trend.

It does try. But its still the same old story, a fight for love and glory, a case of do or die...oh, wrong tune there

Edited by univex, 27 November 2011 - 05:42 PM.

[DominicGreene]

Writing for orchestra isn't like walking into a giant candy store. You've gotta earn it through study.

Grant Kirkhope has done orchestral pieces too,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ikne8j32f88

0:32 could be a Bond score, in a Vesper-ish / Aston Montenegro style.

Same with this one,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_qaxxpsxFM

Bond traveling through the desert

Edited by DominicGreene, 27 November 2011 - 06:11 PM.

[The Shark]

I don't know why people go on about QOS as if it marked a departure from this trend.

It is when you think about it. Take a listen to tracks like Inside Man, No Interest in Dominic Greene, What's Keeping You Awake, and Camille's Story. He's embracing a decidedly new aesthetic, and a far more streamlined mode of composition than before. There's more a post-modern, minimalist, world music, and even Michael Mann-esque sound, that resembles everything from Eric Serra, to Elliot Goldenthal, Alberto Iglesias, Mark Isham, Gustavo Santaolalla, Richard Robbins, A. R. Rahman, Clint Mansell, to Cliff Martinez. I dig it, and I think it stands up as the most original score since GOLDENEYE. It's by far the most progressive in a while.

This review sums up my thoughts:

Quantum of Solace had a lot to live up to - Casino Royale was the best Bond film since Sean Connery departed, grittier and less gadget-happy in the post-Bourne world, but still very entertaining. For the first time in Bond history, this film is a genuine sequel to its predecessor, as Bond embarks upon a personal quest to find those responsible for the demise of his flame in the previous film. It isn't nearly as good as Casino Royale, but it isn't nearly as bad as some of the reviews I read suggested - Marc Forster was a bizarre choice of director and the way he edits the big action sequences is extremely frustrating, but it's still very watchable and better than any of the Brosnan-era efforts.

David Arnold continues as the franchise's composer-of-choice, this being his fifth Bond movie. Unfortunately (will they never learn?) the producers have - as happens on alternate films during his reign - not allowed him to write the main title song, which is a big problem. For one thing, the song that did get used, "Another Way to Die" sung by Jack White and Alicia Keyes, is never a Bond song in a million years - it's a decent middle-of-the-road hip-hop song, but the addition of John Barry-style brass bursts now and again doesn't make it into what a Bond song should be. Of course, it isn't the worst Bond song (it would take a rare ability to deny Madonna her crown there) but an even bigger problem than its inappropriateness is that Arnold is unable to use it as part of his score - he wove "You Know My Name" throughout Casino Royale, which gave it a solid identity; the continuing general absence of the main James Bond Theme (apart from snippets here and there) means it's much harder for this score to stand out from those for any old action movie, whereas in the past there was a much stronger identity for them.

That problem aside, this is generally a very fine score. It opens with an explosive action track, "Time to Get Out" - while this is identifiably similar to Arnold's earlier Bond efforts, going all the way back to Tomorrow Never Dies, he seems now to have become much more assured in his approach and this confidence leads to him no longer taking an "everything but the kitchen sink" approach. The slightly uncomfortable mixture of styles whereby Arnold would suddenly stop what he was doing and insert a track or two of fake John Barry has been abandoned completely, thankfully - Barry did these films brilliantly, but it's time to move on. The subtle electronics work very well in giving the music a very modern sound, but are never dominant - Arnold allows the orchestra to do the vast bulk of the work, which again is very welcome. This continues in "The Palio" and makes the opening eight minutes of the album absolutely thrilling - perhaps not quite on a par with the previous score's "African Rundown", but certainly not far behind.

"Somebody Wants to Kill You" includes the score's first hint of the Bond theme, and afterwards is a refreshing change of direction - guitars, ethnic percussion and flutes combine for a rich piece of action music. There's more fine action music in "Pursuit at Port-au-Prince" - Arnold is really stretching himself here, imposing himself on the film as he has never done before, and it works a treat. What I really like is that even most of the non-action music - which is where Arnold's previous Bond scores have rather fallen down - is interesting. Take "Night at the Opera", where the swirling suspense music is extremely impressive. While some of the shortest cues could have been excised to make a slightly tighter album, that isn't really a problem here at all - there's only 15 minutes less music here than Casino Royale but it is a considerably tighter, more satisfying listening experience. Even if Quantum of Solace doesn't quite have that score's highlights, it is much more consistent and impressive on the whole.

Not all of those shorter cues are redundant, though - occasionally there's a brief burst of energy from sonething like "Bolivian Taxi Ride" which is very welcome. The score all builds up to one final action spectacular, the eight-minute "Perla de las Dunas" (passing through the extremely wittily-titled "Oil Fields" along the way) which is pretty spectacular - but best of all, contains just a few bars which for some reason are absolutely my favourite few seconds of film music in a long time - starting at 2'41" in the track. Love it! After this, and a brief, mournful reprise of Vesper Lynd's theme from the previous film, all that's really left is the song, which belongs somewhere else. In the film, the end titles begin with a fantastic full-on performance of the Bond theme, which is absent here (perhaps it's the same recording as in Casino Royale - but even so, it would have brought things to a far more satisfying conclusion than the album is able to do). Quantum of Solace is Arnold's best Bond score - for the first time, there's a sense that he really does belong on his own terms in this world, and even when hampered by not having been able to write the song himself, he's delivered one of the year's more entertaining albums - and certainly the most action-packed.

http://www.movie-wav...tum_solace.html

[Harmsway]

It is when you think about it. Take a listen to tracks like Inside Man, No Interest in Dominic Greene, What's Keeping You Awake, and Camille's Story. He's embracing a decidedly new aesthetic, and a far more streamlined mode of composition than before.

It is a new aesthetic for Arnold's Bond scores (heck, for Bond scores, period), but just because it's different doesn't mean it's better or all that interesting. There are moments that are genuinely striking--"Night at the Opera" is as good as anything Arnold's ever done for Bond--but they're just moments, and for the most part, Arnold's score for QUANTUM OF SOLACE is a snooze.

[The Shark]

It is when you think about it. Take a listen to tracks like Inside Man, No Interest in Dominic Greene, What's Keeping You Awake, and Camille's Story. He's embracing a decidedly new aesthetic, and a far more streamlined mode of composition than before.

It is a new aesthetic for Arnold's Bond scores (heck, for Bond scores, period), but just because it's different doesn't mean it's better or all that interesting. There are moments that are genuinely striking--"Night at the Opera" is as good as anything Arnold's ever done for Bond--but they're just moments, and for the most part, Arnold's score for QUANTUM OF SOLACE is a snooze.

Maybe so, but relatively speaking, I think it's far more entertaining and listenable (as an album) than anything else he's yet done for Bond.

Considering the overall sameyness of Arnold's Bond output, I'd consider "interesting" or "new" fairly important criteria for quality.

[DamnCoffee]

Actually, I reckon Die Another Day has to be the most entertaining of his Bond scores. I can understand why Casino Royale lacked Bond theme, but there was really no need for Quantum of Solace to lack it, too. He was rewarded the Bond theme with the reveal at the end of Casino. So, why is it abscent in nearly the entire soundtrack for Quantum. At least Die Anorher Day has many nice variations. Graves' death, Ice wave, etc. Honestly, if the entire thing was orchestral, that would probably be his strongest Bond soundtrack.

[The Shark]

It is there Harkers, you've just got to listen out for it. Time to Get Out has got it in two places, Inside Man is actually a very clever variation on it (it's built upon the same three note chromatic vamp - B-C-C#-C), Bond in Haiti is an Afro-Carib variation on it with distorted electric guitar, you can also hear bits of it in Somebody Wants To Kill You, Greene and Camille (towards the end, Arnold combines the verse of AWTD with the Bond in counterpoint), and the very end of Pursuit At Port Au Prince (combined with the NGAGB motif). And that's only just the first 25 minutes of the score.

[Leon]

I think he was talking about the actual full piece that is the Bond Theme. I didn't mind it not being in QoS, though I found alot more fault with that film personally.

I think it's very important that we have a good, classic full James Bond Theme with electric guitar, rich percussion and raw brass played out from a climactic moment in the main finale. Not just because I want it, or that it's overdue, but also that it's the perfect time to do it, given the half-century anniversary of Dr No and the clear desire to maintain some retro and "back to basics" style with the Craig films. He's well earned the right to have a seriously classic Bond moment and classic use of the theme. That doesn't have to be a bad use of it, or constant use. Crafting hints of it into the score is clever and enjoyable to a degree, and a good idea to have a few films break from overuse of it, but it still deserves to be given a little gusto once in a while. This film sounds like it will be fully deserving of and fitting with such a scene too.

[Harmsway]

Maybe so, but relatively speaking, I think it's far more entertaining and listenable (as an album) than anything else he's yet done for Bond.

Gonna have to disagree there, too. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH comes together pretty well as an album.

[MattofSteel]

It is there Harkers, you've just got to listen out for it. Time to Get Out has got it in two places, Inside Man is actually a very clever variation on it (it's built upon the same three note chromatic vamp - B-C-C#-C), Bond in Haiti is an Afro-Carib variation on it with distorted electric guitar, you can also hear bits of it in Somebody Wants To Kill You, Greene and Camille (towards the end, Arnold combines the verse of AWTD with the Bond in counterpoint), and the very end of Pursuit At Port Au Prince (combined with the NGAGB motif). And that's only just the first 25 minutes of the score.

Quite agree - it's everywhere in QOS, and the way it's used is much more in line with how I'd like to see it used in future. The things that make QOS a different score from CR are all things I like about it.

[DamnCoffee]

I know the Bond theme is there, but I'm taking about the classic, bombastic Bond theme. Which Craig clearly deserves.

Still waiting for something like this. 5:30.



The closest we ever got was Pursuit and Port Au Prince.

[jaguar007]

I may be in the minority, but my favorite Arnold score is TND. Yes, it overuses the Bond theme, but I like the Bond theme. The use of "Surrender" throughout is fantastic (like White Knight) and I like the Asian feel of the Bond theme during the motorcycle chase.

[The Shark]

Maybe so, but relatively speaking, I think it's far more entertaining and listenable (as an album) than anything else he's yet done for Bond.

Gonna have to disagree there, too. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH comes together pretty well as an album.

It's probably the third best Arnold score (after DAD), but like TND, I'd say TWINE is hampered by its action cues. Occasional moments of inspiration aside, they're pretty messy and uncoordinated IMO. Time To Get Out alone is far more exhilarating, compact, and compelling than Submarine; Come In 007, Your Time Is Up; Ice Bandits; Pipeline or Caviar Factory put together.

[occhile007]

IMO, QOS is by far Arnold's best work...Time to Get Out, The Palio, Inside Man, Oil Fields...I mean you could go on. It's hard to say what would be my next favorite of Arnold's...TND is classic over-used Bond, but who cares. I mean how many times did the Bond theme play in Dr. No? TWINE is where Arnold was given the go by Michael Apted to be more free with his score. We had a good mix of the Bond theme when Bond had his "bond moments," and we were lucky enough to have him write an original theme with the help of Don Black. DAD could be considered more of a combination of TND and TWINE. The return of the classic Bond theme over-used more (nothing wrong with that), yet some new electric themes that remind us of the Living Daylights score. CR was more classy as was the movie. More of an orchestra sound. You Know My Name and Vespers theme are some of Arnolds best work. But, I still say QOS was the better score.

1. QOS
2. TWINE
3. DAD
4. TND
5. CR

Looking back, I dont even want to put CR at the bottom, but I was taking into consideration about how the Bond theme was used and the originality of the score.


If you're reading this Mr. Arnold...I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your return...

David Arnold WILL RETURN...

[Harmsway]

Time To Get Out alone is far more exhilarating, compact, and compelling than Submarine; Come In 007, Your Time Is Up; Ice Bandits; Pipeline or Caviar Factory put together.

Gotta strongly disagree with you with you there. "Time to Get Out" is more compact (largely because of the length of the car chase rather than any choice Arnold actually makes as a composer), but I'm not going to say it's necessarily more exhilarating or compelling. And aside from "Time to Get Out," QUANTUM OF SOLACE has uniformly tedious action cues; they're not quite as incoherent as what he put together for CASINO ROYALE, of course, but they are dull, and rarely make an impression in the film itself. When Arnold abandons more thematically-driven action cues, he's hopelessly adrift.

The action cues in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH are unified around themes--more so than any of Arnold's other Bond scores, save for TOMORROW NEVER DIES--and pretty rousing themes, at that (they're largely responsible for whatever energy the sluggishly staged and edited sequences have). Of course, Arnold doesn't always structure his cues beautifully (I find "Caviar Factory" a bit all over the place, but in that respect, it mirrors the sequence itself), but for the most part they maintain a consistent identity. The only serious problem with THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH's score is the overblown electronic techno-noise layered onto the score (which is also one of the big problems with Arnold's score for DIE ANOTHER DAY). Otherwise, it's Arnold's most consistent work on the Bond franchise.

[univex]

The only serious problem with THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH's score is the overblown electronic technp-noise layered onto the score (which is also one of the big problems with Arnold's score for DIE ANOTHER DAY).

That´s why I dislike those scores. Not with a vengeance though, but still..

[The Shark]

"Time to Get Out" is more compact (largely because of the length of the car chase rather than any choice Arnold actually makes as a composer),

Well that too, but I also mean in the sense than the construction on a basic cellular level (measure ot measure) is far more streamlined. Less pointless ornamentation, flourishes, runs, or synth elements. In that sense, it's much closer to Barry than ever before.

The action cues in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH are unified around themes

What themes? I count the Garbage title song (though sadly, Arnold never gives an action treatment of the verse, which is far more interesting than the chorus - harmonically speaking) and the Bond theme, but what else? I know here's some horribly generic descending piano motif that he uses throughout, but nothing more substantial than that.

Although the electronic overdub is still overbearing in DAD, I think the beats he constructs there meld better with the orchestration, and the experimental stuff he does with digital processing (reversing, inverting, stuttering and slowing down/speeding up parts) gives it a unique sound. The action material has also got more to work with, with the Moon/Graves theme, Jinx's theme, and the OHMSS/He's Dangerous derived theme. The later being pretty rousing stuff.

That said, the action cues of QUANTUM OF SOLACE are arguably more thematically derived than in any previous Arnold score. You've got the 6 note NGAGB motif; which acts as a pivot point, preparing for certain key transitions within a cue (and dramatically on screen too), then there's the central 8 measure long secondary Quantum theme for when the villains are gaining an upper hand, built around from 4 chords (Gm, Fm/M7th, Cm, ESus2), which later in the cue develops into a kinda quasi-rumba rhythm; after that you got the middle 8 of AWTD (Oooh-ooh-ooh-ooh-oh OOOOOH!!!) which Arnold actually makes it sound good, by turning into a brutal 2 measure motif with triplet jabs from trumpets and winds, and the central figure played by unison horns, usually reserved for when Bond turns the table on his enemies; there's also another 2 measure motif, this one built around a lurching additive 4/4 rhythm (123-123-12|3-123-12-12), mostly heard with short flurries of action; Camille's theme (built around around the octatonic scale) is also heard in an action context with a chugging clave rhythm; Greene's theme also get four uptempo hearings in the finale when Bond's wreaking havoc, signalling his own doom; the main Quantum theme is heard at least once; and as is a variation on the 4 note YKMN motif.

I think if you deconstruct the action cues of QOS (as I have), you'll find that compared to previous scores, there's far less incidental "filler" that has no real bearing on the rest of the score's architecture. Less fat in other words.

[Gt Munn]

The only serious problem with THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH's score is the overblown electronic technp-noise layered onto the score (which is also one of the big problems with Arnold's score for DIE ANOTHER DAY).

That´s why I dislike those scores. Not with a vengeance though, but still..

I agree as well. I think he best incorporated the techno-sound with TND. It was here that it was restrained and never overshadowed the orchestra. It was just the right amount to act as a perfect accompaniment. TND also had some very strong reoccurring themes that added a lot to the score.

I was listening to Elfman's score for Mission: Impossible the other day; a definite favorite I return to. Elfman did a great job in not overusing the main theme too much. Doing this made it very powerful when he brought the full theme out in the end in all of its glory. Hoping that this could be the case for the next Bond score.

In an unrelated note, I think the first Mission: Impossible is a fantastic film. Remember getting to see it in the theater when I was 8. Of course, it did not leave the same impression that Goldeneye did on me in theaters the previous year, but I remember loving it for all the ways that it was similar to Bond. Too bad the Mission series dies afterward. Two is a stupid action film, and Three is Alias the movie (too much like Alias to the point of being distracting). The trailer for the fourth one playing rap music does not instill a desire for me to go see it. I pray the Bond never lose their class.

A note regarding the first film: The early scenes in Prague are fantastic.

[Satorious]

DAD was a horrible soundtrack, Arnold's worst by some margin. I particularly found the over-loading of Drum and Bass annoying. It starts with the Gun Barrel and goes downhill from there, that Hovercraft cue is ghastly. It gives me a headache! The only half decent material in the film is the romantic Jinx theme, but these are as good as rehashed in CR for Solange. The reason I prefer QOS is because it shows much more musical restraint than any of his other Bond soundtracks. Still way too much filler though!

[MattofSteel]

I think people tend to underestimate the amount of direction a composer has to take, especially on a film like Bond. Anyone in a creative position in the filmmaking process has to. The things about Arnold's work people say they hate may not have always been his first inclination, or even decision.

[The Shark]

DAD was a horrible soundtrack, Arnold's worst by some margin.

I like it for its sheer audacity and "I don't give a about subtlety" ethos. It's incredibly out there and almost tasteless at times, but there's something to it that keeps bringing back to it, more so than TND or CR. Unlike CASINO ROALE, it doesn't feel like he's holding back any punches, or trying to play it safe. TWINE and QOS are by far and away Arnold's most confident Bond scores.

[Harmsway]

What themes? I count the Garbage title song (though sadly, Arnold never gives an action treatment of the verse, which is far more interesting than the chorus - harmonically speaking) and the Bond theme, but what else?

Variations on the title song play into "Come in, 007" and "Ice Bandits." In addition, there's the "villain" theme, which gets played throughout (boldest statements come about in "Caviar Factory," when the cue isn't playing the Bond theme), and then there's the "Bunker" theme which undergirds the whole of the bunker action sequence and, if I'm not mistaken (I can't listen to verify at this juncture), shows up again in "Submarine."

That said, the action cues of QUANTUM OF SOLACE are arguably more thematically derived than in any previous Arnold score.

Perhaps. Though I don't think they're very interesting themes/motifs (Arnold never builds them into anything particularly striking), and in repetition, they quickly become dull.

[The Shark]

What themes? I count the Garbage title song (though sadly, Arnold never gives an action treatment of the verse, which is far more interesting than the chorus - harmonically speaking) and the Bond theme, but what else?

Variations on the title song play into "Come in, 007" and "Ice Bandits." In addition, there's the "villain" theme, which gets played throughout (boldest statements come about in "Caviar Factory," when the cue isn't playing the Bond theme), and then there's the "Bunker" theme which undergirds the whole of the bunker action sequence and, if I'm not mistaken (I can't listen to verify at this juncture), shows up again in "Submarine."

I'll have to give it another listen, but I can't remember this "villain theme." The Bunker theme you mention could be the banal piano figure heard in Pipeline I referred to earlier.

That said, the action cues of QUANTUM OF SOLACE are arguably more thematically derived than in any previous Arnold score.

Perhaps. Though I don't think they're very interesting themes/motifs (Arnold never builds them into anything particularly striking), and in repetition, they quickly become dull.

Well, With the main action theme (the 4 chord one I mention), it's never exact repetition by any means. Rhythm, meter and instrumentation is always varied (I can provide several examples to support this), so in each recapitulation it sounds fresh, but with enough consistency to provide an internal logic.

As shown, the other themes are more motifs and therefore much less substantial, but where QOS differs to other Arnold efforts is how character themes most often heard in an non-action setting are given an appearance (if only once) in an action cue. That is unique, and more akin to Wagnerian leitmotif than anything in any previous Arnold score.