207 replies to this topic

[Jim]

Not to mention the fact that there ARE many Bond-like people in real life who smoke, even today. The U.S. military is full of smokers. It's a way to relax from a stressful job. I've heard the (I believe true) story of a Navy SEAL instructor who would motivate BUD/S trainees in Coronado by outrunning them WHILE smoking a cigar.

Are these guys going to live to be 103 in perfect health? No, but they don't care. They're planning on wearing out their bodies from the job anyway, if not dying early. This is Bond's mentality.

I really hate doing this but I can't resist. I'm in the army. Have been for 22 years. I'm 41. I smoke roughly 40 cigarettes a day. I do an army APFT (Physical fitness test) every 4 months. I can run faster than 70 percent of my Regiment's young uns with my eyes closed, so to speak. I am a fully qualified mountain climber and have trained with a number of foreign services amongst which I can safely mention the Italian ALPINI and Para Regiment. I can swim 200 meters towing another man in less than 4 minutes in full water ensemble (And that's less than some of my younger men can do). I abseil out of helicopters onto ships at sea on a number of occasions and go through to do what I have to do. I also have regular BFTs (that's Battle Fitness Test for the uninitiated) and believe me when I tell you that I always end up beasting along a couple of young lads who don't smoke along the way. As I said I smoke, heavily, I drink, heavily, I play, hard. I'm not going to say women find me irresistibly sexy even though I smoke but what I will say is that I can charm the hell out of most women I set my evil eye upon if I wanted to and the fact is that almost all the women I have charmed the hell out of and ended up in bed with were non-smokers themselves. And yeah, when I put that cigarette in the corner of my mouth and light it up with my golden lighter a la Sean Connery, I can see it in their eyes that they become intrigued, hooked even.

...and Cher fan.

[Jeao007]

Being a smoker myself, and also a big fan of the literary world of Bond, I would like to see him smoke in the upcoming film. However, will it actually happen? Probably not. But, one can dream.

I live in Illinois, so there is nowhere to smoke indoors (unless it is a tobacco shop. They are exempt from the law) I live near the Illinois/Missouri border, and you can smoke in most places in Missouri. I was in Saint Louis last weekend and went to the Lumiere Casino and lit up a smoke..T'was nice.

[Rufus Ffolkes]

It's really a moot point because no studio these days is going to finance a $100+ million dollar film with a hero who smokes. Not cigarettes, anyway. There may be a slim chance that we'll see Craig smoking a cigar a la Brosnan, but even that seems doubtful.

[David Schofield]

I really hate doing this but I can't resist. I'm in the army. Have been for 22 years. I'm 41. I smoke roughly 40 cigarettes a day. I do an army APFT (Physical fitness test) every 4 months. I can run faster than 70 percent of my Regiment's young uns with my eyes closed, so to speak. I am a fully qualified mountain climber and have trained with a number of foreign services amongst which I can safely mention the Italian ALPINI and Para Regiment. I can swim 200 meters towing another man in less than 4 minutes in full water ensemble (And that's less than some of my younger men can do). I abseil out of helicopters onto ships at sea on a number of occasions and go through to do what I have to do. I also have regular BFTs (that's Battle Fitness Test for the uninitiated) and believe me when I tell you that I always end up beasting along a couple of young lads who don't smoke along the way. As I said I smoke, heavily, I drink, heavily, I play, hard. I'm not going to say women find me irresistibly sexy even though I smoke but what I will say is that I can charm the hell out of most women I set my evil eye upon if I wanted to and the fact is that almost all the women I have charmed the hell out of and ended up in bed with were non-smokers themselves. And yeah, when I put that cigarette in the corner of my mouth and light it up with my golden lighter a la Sean Connery, I can see it in their eyes that they become intrigued, hooked even. You can almost feel the want in them so please don't fill me up with a load of cobblers that most women find smoking unattractive and unsexy. In fact, the majority of women find the dark, cruel traits of a man a wonderful, wonderful place to go.

To conclude, most arguments in favour of Bond not smoking are based on a simple non-understanding of who the heck they're talking about. Hellllo!!! This is James Bond here! Ian Fleming's James Bond. No other character. As Messervy and Binyamin so beautifully put it before me:

...'Bond takes pleasure in great beauty, lives on the edge, and knows bloody well that he's ruining his health in the process. He kills and knows he can get killed. That's Bond. That's what defines him. So, yes, smoking, drinking, driving fast, etc. are integral parts of the character.'

Surprised with that amount of activity you manage the time to chug down 40 tabs a day, Harry.

[Messervy]

no studio these days is going to finance a $100+ million dollar film with a hero who smokes.

which never fails to amaze me: you can drink, kill, punch your colleagues, damage pretty much everything you touch; but you shouldn't smoke...

[smudge76]

I'm sure weather he smokes or not we will all go to see the next 007 film.

Edited by smudge76, 04 February 2011 - 10:45 PM.

[Harry Fawkes]

I really hate doing this but I can't resist. I'm in the army. Have been for 22 years. I'm 41. I smoke roughly 40 cigarettes a day. I do an army APFT (Physical fitness test) every 4 months. I can run faster than 70 percent of my Regiment's young uns with my eyes closed, so to speak. I am a fully qualified mountain climber and have trained with a number of foreign services amongst which I can safely mention the Italian ALPINI and Para Regiment. I can swim 200 meters towing another man in less than 4 minutes in full water ensemble (And that's less than some of my younger men can do). I abseil out of helicopters onto ships at sea on a number of occasions and go through to do what I have to do. I also have regular BFTs (that's Battle Fitness Test for the uninitiated) and believe me when I tell you that I always end up beasting along a couple of young lads who don't smoke along the way. As I said I smoke, heavily, I drink, heavily, I play, hard. I'm not going to say women find me irresistibly sexy even though I smoke but what I will say is that I can charm the hell out of most women I set my evil eye upon if I wanted to and the fact is that almost all the women I have charmed the hell out of and ended up in bed with were non-smokers themselves. And yeah, when I put that cigarette in the corner of my mouth and light it up with my golden lighter a la Sean Connery, I can see it in their eyes that they become intrigued, hooked even. You can almost feel the want in them so please don't fill me up with a load of cobblers that most women find smoking unattractive and unsexy. In fact, the majority of women find the dark, cruel traits of a man a wonderful, wonderful place to go.

To conclude, most arguments in favour of Bond not smoking are based on a simple non-understanding of who the heck they're talking about. Hellllo!!! This is James Bond here! Ian Fleming's James Bond. No other character. As Messervy and Binyamin so beautifully put it before me:

...'Bond takes pleasure in great beauty, lives on the edge, and knows bloody well that he's ruining his health in the process. He kills and knows he can get killed. That's Bond. That's what defines him. So, yes, smoking, drinking, driving fast, etc. are integral parts of the character.'

Surprised with that amount of activity you manage the time to chug down 40 tabs a day, Harry.

Not to mention drink half a bottle of bubbly. Ah, I'm addicted to the bad things in life. Always have been in fact. But then, I was lucky enough to survive a number of 'incidents' in my life I now find I'd rather enjoy the good things out there. And we all know that the good things are actually the bad things, which makes them so good at the end of the day!

I'd better stop this rambling on, it's doing my head in.

One thing's for sure, we're all going to hell the same way anyway so what the heck...Enjoy life!

[David Schofield]

One thing's for sure, we're all going to hell the same way anyway so what the heck...Enjoy life!

Well, I certainly agree with the philosophy.

[jaguar007]

Not to mention drink half a bottle of bubbly.

Only HALF a bottle???? You wuss

[Sark2.0]

There's two related arguments that keep coming up again and again that need to be addressed.

The first is this notion that Bond is not a role model. . He absolutely is. Anyone ever heard the phrase "men want to be him, women want to be with him?" Sounds like a role model to me. Who here hasn't put on a tuxedo and looked in the mirror to see how they measure up to 007? Not many I'd wager. When someone says someone or something someone did is "very James Bond" or "very Bond-like", is that a compliment? Only approximately 100% of the time. There's this website, this forum, and this book, just off the top of my head.

The second is that just because Bond does something doesn't glamorize it. Again, . That's one of the biggest attractions to Bond. He glamorizes everything he does. He glamorizes nice hotels, drinking expensive champagne, bespoke suits, gambling, and, oh yeah, the profession of intelligence itself. If he smokes, he can't help but glamorize it.

Some people seem to have misunderstood me. I'm not 100% against Bond smoking. I don't feel particularly strongly either way. I'd like to see him smoke a cigar (the differences between cigars and cigarettes have been explained). I don't see any reason to bring cigarettes into the mix though. And "because Fleming did it" is not a convincing argument to me-Bond has to evolve with the times, not become an anachronism.

[Binyamin]

The first is this notion that Bond is not a role model. . He absolutely is. Anyone ever heard the phrase "men want to be him, women want to be with him?"

The point is, he is not a CLEANCUT role model. He is a role model of vice. The vice is the core of the appeal. To writ, I don't want to be Lance Armstrong. Men want to be Bond BECAUSE they would be permitted to be bad (the women even more bad), to smoke, to drink, to kill, all without consequence. It is a male psychological fantasy. If you remove the rough edges of James Bond, you are left with only an empty shell.

[Harry Fawkes]

The point is, he is not a CLEANCUT role model. He is a role model of vice. The vice is the core of the appeal. To writ, I don't want to be Lance Armstrong. Men want to be Bond BECAUSE they would be permitted to be bad (the women even more bad), to smoke, to drink, to kill, all without consequence. It is a male psychological fantasy. If you remove the rough edges of James Bond, you are left with only an empty shell.

And by heck if people can't understand that then I don't know!
What Binyamin has just pointed out in the above post sums it all up perfectly.

[Sark2.0]

The first is this notion that Bond is not a role model. . He absolutely is. Anyone ever heard the phrase "men want to be him, women want to be with him?"

The point is, he is not a CLEANCUT role model. He is a role model of vice. The vice is the core of the appeal. To writ, I don't want to be Lance Armstrong. Men want to be Bond BECAUSE they would be permitted to be bad (the women even more bad), to smoke, to drink, to kill, all without consequence. It is a male psychological fantasy. If you remove the rough edges of James Bond, you are left with only an empty shell.

That's accurate enough. He's not the 1960's Batman paragon of virtue. Plenty of people were trying to say he is not a role model for anyone fullstop.

[Messervy]

The first is this notion that Bond is not a role model. . He absolutely is. Anyone ever heard the phrase "men want to be him, women want to be with him?"

The point is, he is not a CLEANCUT role model. He is a role model of vice. The vice is the core of the appeal. To writ, I don't want to be Lance Armstrong. Men want to be Bond BECAUSE they would be permitted to be bad (the women even more bad), to smoke, to drink, to kill, all without consequence. It is a male psychological fantasy. If you remove the rough edges of James Bond, you are left with only an empty shell.

Very true, Binyamin. Bond is no role model, as in "someone whose behaviour should inspire you". He's precisely the opposite. You don't want to be him because he'd be some Justin Bieber-like idol. You want to be him because you want to feel what living on the edge, spying, womanizing, driving dangerously fast, always winning at cards games, visiting fancy locations, engage in witticism battles with lunatic villains, etc. all mean.
It's escapism.
So, in a way, we could say that Bond is a model; but an escapism model. A model for all the naughty/rough things you want to do but don't get the opportunity to do. Clearly NOT an example-setting model. "It is a male psychological fantasy" as Binyamin very correctly put it.

[Kreivi von Glödä]

Excessive drinking and smoking are Bonds character traits, so I agree that he should smoke again in the movies, but I won't lose my sleep if he doesn't. When it comes to DC's portrayal of Bond we do not know does he smoke or not, when taking todays draconian smoking bans into equation - casinos, trains, etc. are no smoking areas nowadays and it would have been truly silly if he would have stopped to lit up a cigarette when chasing Mollaka... The mental image of Bond I have in my head is of a smoker, and I haven't seen anything yet in Daniel Craigs portrayal which wouldn't fit that mental image (apart from having sandy blonde hair with which I've learned to live with ).

Edited by Kreivi von Glödä, 07 February 2011 - 10:55 PM.

[bill007]

Novel-Bond existed 50 years ago in a world that glamorized tobacco smoking. I've smoked for 35 of my 50+ years. Nothing pained me more to discover one of my sons had taken up the habit.

Movie-Bond exists in the present, whether it be in the 1960's, or the 2010's. And currently, the world has rejected the taking of tobacco habitually. However, there is an element which considers the occasional, finely-rolled cigar along with a smooth brandy quite to thing to do.

[Jim]

The villain could smoke. To emphasise the villainy.

[Brooky]

I also agree that Bond should be seen smoking again but there ain't a chance in hell of it happening.

[00 Brosnan]

I don't really care if Bond smokes or not. Connery's smoking cigarettes was more a sign of the times, but his scene in Dr. No in the casino is classic. It was cool to see Dalton light up in TLD after a decade plus of the smoke free Moore (I believe) and Brosnan smoked cigars (which is more accepted).

I could see Craig smoking a cigar (as I previously said, it's more accepted) if it adds something to a scene, but it's not really necessary in my opinion. There's no way he'll smoke a cigarette. Religious nuts and parents groups will start blabbing about how the Bond producers are trying to promote smoking to children. "WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!? THE CHILDREN!!!"

[The Shark]

The religious right are fairly indifferent when it comes to smoking. It's usually only the sanctimonious new left that storm up a fuss when it's shown on film or TV. They're also more likely to pressure its censorship than any other group.

God protect us from protectors.

[Chief of SIS]

The religious right are fairly indifferent when it comes to smoking. It's usually only the sanctimonious new left that storm up a fuss when it's shown on film or TV. They're also more likely to pressure its censorship than any other group.

God protect us from protectors.

I think it is a slippery slope to point fingers to a religious right or sanctimonious left when discussing smoking. Smoking has been exposed over time to be a not so 'cool' thing as it once was. The realization of the correlation to lung cancer has the most to do with that. It is as a community of individuals that decide even what our fictional heroes should represent, not some political figureheads with agendas. In reality, having Bond smoke today would almost be a contradiction in his character as it has been established.

[Dustin]

I doubt it's really due to sanctimonious whatevers (naturally, always more of that despicable ilk to be found on the other side of the fence, inevitably ) that smoking has become obsolete in Bonds. It not just a cultural habit, it also is a kind of shorthand for the art of acting. Over time this particular code in that shorthand has changed its meaning. Due to what efforts and whose profit is everybody's guess, but that's not the point here. Fact is that today you mainly see smoking inevitably depicted as communicating one of two distinctive meanings:

- stress, in a maximum helping, threatening to overcome the character

- an abundance of luxury, wealth and power; complacency and degeneration; a fattening of the body and the mind

I won't argue that not all people smoking today fall in either of these categories; of course not everybody lighting up is necessarily either. But the shorthand of acting and film/stage acting has shifted the smoking habit towards these main meanings. It doesn't mean there aren't others too. They just aren't as prevalent any more. And these two main denotations (if that's not a word I've just made it up) do not go all that well with the character of Bond in films, such as he's become over time.

So, no smokes for 007.

[The Shark]

(naturally, always more of that despicable ilk to be found on the other side of the fence, inevitably

Depends what side you're talking from.

And these two main denotations (if that's not a word I've just made it up) do not go all that well with the character of Bond in films, such as he's become over time.

I think the former does, or can, at least.

And there's nothing that the way the filmmakers portray smoking in Bond 23, couldn't be under a different light. EON ain't Hollywood, yet...

I think it is a slippery slope to point fingers to a religious right or sanctimonious left when discussing smoking. Smoking has been exposed over time to be a not so 'cool' thing as it once was. The realization of the correlation to lung cancer has the most to do with that.

The point I'm trying to make, is that the left tends to be considerably more aggressive when it comes to this issue, just as the right are when the debate centers on abortion, gay rights and immigration.

It is as a community of individuals that decide even what our fictional heroes should represent, not some political figureheads with agendas.

Not from what I remember the last time Bond smoked, in DAD. It was the meeja and anti-smoking pressure groups that got up in arms about it, not the general public.

In reality, having Bond smoke today would almost be a contradiction in his character as it has been established.

But can't Bond's character change? According to the timeline and all that, by 2012 it'll be 4-6 years since we last saw him. In those years, he could have easily abandoned his metrosexual lifestyle, and started smoking tobacco, eating richer foods and popping Benzedrine pills. Fleming's Bond often went through cycles of poor health, and ended up getting sent to Sir James Maloney and Shrublands. Often recovering in the first few chapters of the book.

Maybe his career's taking a toll, and he lives life to the full to keep him going, regardless of long term consequences? That's Bond.

[00 Brosnan]

But can't Bond's character change? According to the timeline and all that, by 2012 it'll be 4-6 years since we last saw him. In those years, he could have easily abandoned his metrosexual lifestyle, and started smoking tobacco, eating richer foods and popping Benzedrine pills. Fleming's Bond often went through cycles of poor health, and ended up getting sent to Sir James Maloney and Shrublands. Often recovering in the first few chapters of the book.

When did Bond live a metro-sexual lifestyle? I don't get it.

Edited by 00 Brosnan, 20 April 2011 - 12:40 PM.

[The Shark]

But can't Bond's character change? According to the timeline and all that, by 2012 it'll be 4-6 years since we last saw him. In those years, he could have easily abandoned his metrosexual lifestyle, and started smoking tobacco, eating richer foods and popping Benzedrine pills. Fleming's Bond often went through cycles of poor health, and ended up getting sent to Sir James Maloney and Shrublands. Often recovering in the first few chapters of the book.

When did Bond live a metro-sexual lifestyle? I don't get it.

Fitness nut lifestyle, no unhealthy meals, waxed chest, speedos etc... Even blokes in the military don't go in for that.

[Dustin]

Some do, some don't. All depends on their personal preferences I suppose. That whole metrosexual thing is just a lable, for a while it was fashionable, now it's hardly used any more, or I don't read it at any rate. I wouldn't put too much attention on that anyway. It's not as if we get to see all Bond's meals. And the speedos would only disturb me if he happened to be flabby and overweight. Of course he's fit, he's Bond.

[The Shark]

Of course he's fit, he's Bond.

But Bond is meant to be a hedonist, someone who lives for the moment. Not a machine.

In other words, Bond shouldn't have a six pack.

[Dustin]

Of course he's fit, he's Bond.

But Bond is meant to be a hedonist, someone who lives for the moment. Not a machine.

In other words, Bond shouldn't have a six pack.

Not at all. Hedonism is about seeking pleasure in life. It's not necessarily about gluttony or overindulgence, though both are often (wrongly) taken for hedonism. Such pleasure can also stem from a delight to hone a body's performance and appearence. Nothing to prevent Bond having a sixpack IMO.

As it is there even have been examples in Fleming and Gardner for that school of thought. Doctor No scrutinises Bond's built and muscle tone closely, putting special attention to "the hidden strenght in the flat stomach" And Gardner lets Bond inspect his own body, with a degree of pleasure (though not in a vain way) about his obvious fitness that was reflected in "the taut muscles of thights and calves, and the bulge of his biceps."

Not such a long way to a sixpack I'd argue. It was beyond the mainstream in Fleming's days, but I doubt he'd criticise Bond being depicted with one, especially in our day and age where exercise and physical workout have become much more common. Bond enjoys physical exertion; even in Doctor No he finds it's one of the ingredients of a good adventure and looks forward to it. I can picture Bond revelling in a tough workout or a long-distance run and enjoy the experience, easily.

[The Shark]

Of course he's fit, he's Bond.

But Bond is meant to be a hedonist, someone who lives for the moment. Not a machine.

In other words, Bond shouldn't have a six pack.

Not at all. Hedonism is about seeking pleasure in life. It's not necessarily about gluttony or overindulgence, though both are often (wrongly) taken for hedonism.

Sorry, my mistake. I meant both hedonism and gluttony. The later a byproduct of the former.

Such pleasure can also stem from a delight to hone a body's performance and appearence.

In other words, in metrosexual vanity. That is the kind of mentality Fleming scoffed at in his novels. Remember Bond's cynicism toward the diver in GOLDFINGER?

As it is there even have been examples in Fleming and Gardner for that school of thought. Doctor No scrutinises Bond's built and muscle tone closely, putting special attention to "the hidden strenght in the flat stomach"

The literary Bond was well built, just like Connery and Lazenby were. More wiry and less bulky.

Having a flat stomach does not necessarily denote a gym body.

[Dustin]

Such pleasure can also stem from a delight to hone a body's performance and appearence.

In other words, in metrosexual vanity. That is the kind of mentality Fleming scoffed at in his novels. Remember Bond's cynicism toward the diver in GOLDFINGER?

I didn't really take that as scoffing. I always thought it was one of those odd facts he came across and simply had to use it. Fleming often couldn't resist such urges, even though the anecdote didn't help the story or was necessary for Bond's investigation.

But I admit Fleming used Red Grant's example of a well-defined body, and not in a falttering light. On cursory reading one might find here the antithesis of the bodybuilding culture and mistake Fleming as an opponent of what today is subsumed under the label "metrosexuality" (for what reason though I can't explain). Closer inspection reveals two main reactions to Grant's physique. First, there is the masseuse's instinctive horror of the finest body she had ever seen. Grant's body is described in a detailed manner while the girl works on every part of his physique. Meanwhile, she tries to analyse her revulsion. She doesn't arrive at a definite answer to her feelings, but she suspects part of it is due to the man's asexuality and indifference. In other words a lack of vanity and sexual availability. Grant has the body of a Greek god, but does nothing with it.

Secondly, there is Bond's irritation at meeting with a man so evidently going beyond the average of male physical exertion. That irritation, bordering on suspicion, is easily explained. A working man with basically a desk job must spend nearly his entire leisure with sports to achieve that kind of looks (albeit it may be a bit much making Bond immediately notice how much of an athlete Grant is, for the 1950's clothes surely would cover some of his bulk). At any rate it was a most uncommon sight back in the day for somebody who's not a professional athlete. It raises Bond's suspicion in the same way M frowns upon unseasonable suntan.

But none of that to me speaks of mockery or a satirical attitude of Fleming - or Bond - towards men who shape their bodies after a classical ideal. To the contrary, the minute discription of Grant's statuesque appearence speaks of awe and appreciation to me.

As it is there even have been examples in Fleming and Gardner for that school of thought. Doctor No scrutinises Bond's built and muscle tone closely, putting special attention to "the hidden strenght in the flat stomach"

The literary Bond was well built, just like Connery and Lazenby were. More wiry and less bulky.

Having a flat stomach does not necessarily denote a gym body.

I agree that Bond should not resemble Conan with black tie. But I can easily picture a Bond who is well-defined, and of course including a sixpack, without coming across as a bodybuilder. The difference here is of course not the muscle (everybody has that fabled sixpack) but the fat that with most people covers this part of their anatomy. The workout routine usually aims to activate and stimulate these muscles, but the real difference is the way in which professionals (and semi-professionals and amateurs and by now all and sundry) dehydrate their metabolism to define the area more. That is something I would deem not suitable for Bond, but I still think there is some distance to go before we must fear such.

Edited by Dustin, 20 April 2011 - 08:05 PM.