2121 replies to this topic

[zencat]

The chapter on The Novel is just mind bowing. Almost every paragraph holds a major revelation. Puts me in the mood to re-read that chapter right now. Get it all in my head better.

I expect Fleming didn't even think about Bond's background until OHMSS. When he decided to tackle it, he did what he always did, he worked himself into it. Hence he was considering giving Bond some kind of Scottish lineage. When Connery comes along, it all fits nicely into place. Heck, maybe Fleming even wanted to help explain Connery a bit. He wanted the films to succeed as much as anyone.

[Trident]

Particularly interesting: 'commissioned research'. My impression always was Fleming more or less soaked up the stuff along the ride, much depending on happenstance and good or bad luck. Here it clearly says Fleming 'hired' professional help (in however formal a manner). This is worlds away from the casual to and fro of letters and fan suggestions.

Heck, maybe Fleming even wanted to help explain Connery a bit. He wanted the films to succeed as much as anyone.

It certainly fell into place nicely. And may actually also have helped Connery with Fleming seeing him in a milder and more conciliatory light. I remember having read somewhere (For Bond Lovers Only???) that Connery was apprehensive about their first meeting and that he in turn had been told Fleming would be quite jealous of his heavy hair on chest and forearms. Not sure, how much of that is true. But Connery sharing at least half his lineage with Fleming (and what he pondered for Bond) surely helped there.

[zencat]

True. I was surprised just how early Fleming started work on OHMSS (research-wise). He really put a lot into that book.

But we've gone way off topic.

(I am happy to see this master thread come back up on top however.)

[doublenoughtspy]

As you might know, Zen, I am a huge fan of Charles book, but even Charles does not make it the factual statement you make here. Charles uses the word "considered".

Doublesnoughspy gives evidence of 1960 correspondence in which Fleming asked an historian to look into a Scottish Bond family line which he cannot find, though he conceeds that does not preclude there being one.

Charles further provides evidence of a quote from Fleming on Connery's casting in which he approves of everything about Connery EXCEPT his strong Scottish accent.

However, neither of these insights change the facts: in the novel he wrote imediately after the Scottish-heritage research - The Spy Who Loved Me - Fleming makes no reference to any Scots background, and that James Bond only came to enjoy a Scottish heritage AFTER he had see Sean Connery in Dr No, during which it is perfectly possible Fleming overcame his reservations about Sean's accent (which was toned down from his then-brogue anyway).

It is all speculation, one way or the other. However, I think there still isn't enough evidence to suggest that the Scottish-driver was anything other than Sean Connery...

David,

You are right - I don't come out and say "Connery had nothing to do with Bond being Scottish" but I think the evidence I provided certainly points more in that direction than Fleming radically changing plans for Bond's background the minute Connery was hired.

1) Fleming comes from Scottish lineage
2) He hires a Scottish nobleman to do research on Bond's family history - who specifically mentions trying to track down a Scottish Bond line in research from 1960 - years before Connery is on anybody's Bond radar.

Zencat - I'm glad you were surprised about and noted Fleming's long term research that I talk about in the book - I wish more people were aware of it. Fleming did try to play up that he went to Goldeneye to write a book and it came out that spring. Of course the book that came out was the one that he had written a year before, and thus research had begun prior to even that. So I really hate when people try to link historical events and claim that Fleming must have been influenced by something when the book might have been already in proof and about to launch, or he had been researching something similar years before and it was a coincidence.

But the one thing I've been looking for is any evidence of Bond's German connection. From what I understand, Pearson, who wrote that Bond was born in Germany, has said that the idea originated from Fleming.

I talked to Higson about it, and as you know Higson has Bond born in Switzerland. He said that using Germany as Bond's birthplace was an interesting foreshadowing of the war.

[doublenoughtspy]

You're right! How extraordinarily remarkable! Have to confess, I started 'The Making of On Her Majesty's Secret Service' with the 'Scripts & False Starts' chapter. I only just read 'The Novel' now (stupidly assuming I already knew enough about the background of that book).

You skipped an entire chapter of my masterpiece?

Still, not ever a hint at Scottland before OHMSS. Obviously Fleming intended to tally Bond's background with his own, but he seems to have got the idea somewhere along the road to the 1960 research, not from the '53 outset.

Nonetheless, another splendid finding of doublenoughtspy's definite work on the core of the Bond canon, both of films and books. Go, no, run to your local bookshop and get it!

Makes a great Father's Day gift!

[Righty007]

Still, not ever a hint at Scottland before OHMSS. Obviously Fleming intended to tally Bond's background with his own, but he seems to have got the idea somewhere along the road to the 1960 research, not from the '53 outset.

Nonetheless, another splendid finding of doublenoughtspy's definite work on the core of the Bond canon, both of films and books. Go, no, run to your local bookshop and get it!

Makes a great Father's Day gift!

[Trident]

You're right! How extraordinarily remarkable! Have to confess, I started 'The Making of On Her Majesty's Secret Service' with the 'Scripts & False Starts' chapter. I only just read 'The Novel' now (stupidly assuming I already knew enough about the background of that book).

You skipped an entire chapter of my masterpiece?

For several days I wasn't able to do anything but marvel at the fantastic wealth of photographs and their respective captions, browsing chapters for hours on end. Your volume comes with a visual impact that's nothing less but overwhelming.

After that initial state of shock, I set to reading in a more organised manner, but the pictures of Staglieno Cemetery, of the FORD GT and of a '68 Max von Sydow as a possible Blofeld, together with the connection of Simon Raven to the script, simply made it impossble for me to delay a single minute on reading this fascinating tale of how OHMSS became what we've got now. Astonishing to me, what scurrile and fantastical scenes Maibaum considered for his earlier drafts, almost as if trying to top Dahl's bizarre influence on YOLT.

Also noteworthy that all treatments and drafts apparently had Tracy killed at the end.

Further, I was amazed by the storyboards in this chapter and later on, when I learned of Phidian.

And...

And...

And...


You see, after that I simply got immersed in your work, forgot about the actual first chapter and lost myself in OHMSS's strange tale. There is still hardly a day when I don't spend an hour or two browsing and reminiscing with your book in hand.

You provided a truly marvellous gift to us fans. Thanks a lot, Charles!

[zencat]

For those who are just following this thread:

Project X car discussion/suggestions:
http://debrief.comma...showtopic=58338

Project X gun discussion/suggestions:
http://debrief.comma...showtopic=58242

[terminus]

Where can I find doublenoughtspy's book on OHMSS should I want to buy it?

[DAN LIGHTER]

HHmmmmmmmm still no news on Project X. And I suspect it will be sometime before it's offered up. What little we get goes off like a bomb.

[zencat]

Where can I find doublenoughtspy's book on OHMSS should I want to buy it?

Amazon US

Amazon UK

[terminus]

Where can I find doublenoughtspy's book on OHMSS should I want to buy it?

Amazon US

Amazon UK

Thankoo. Added to my wishlist.

[Quantumofsolace007]

Just a though (i'm not sure if ti involves it's own thread)

How many girls will bond Bed. Benson had him with 2-3 girls per novel Devil may care was one i believe so where will Deaver Go? 1 like Fleming/Faulks or more then that like the films and Benson?


Also Post 9/11 terrorists is there a possibility of a multi novel (and multi author) Orgnization here or perhaps Quantum? Or will Deaver use a real world terrorist orgnization yet a fictional member of it (Like Le Chiffe was part of Smersh)

[zencat]

Good questions. I don't think the girl count is as important to the books as the films. Quality over quantity. And I'm not sure I need them to rush into the villain organization thing too quickly. Besides, if the books are rooted in reality, there is a real worldwide terrorist organization already out there...

Spoiler

The GOP

[DAN LIGHTER]

If I may think out loud, having been a fan of the Batman reboot (not a BIG fan of it before)it makes me wonder why it cant work for Bond. I know someone has mentioned comics in this thread before, and I agree with them.

Ok Batman was a film and we are talking literay Bond, but the idea is the same. It's all to do with how you look at it and what mood you are in. A bond reboot feels good today!

[godwulf]

If I may think out loud, having been a fan of the Batman reboot (not a BIG fan of it before)it makes me wonder why it cant work for Bond. I know someone has mentioned comics in this thread before, and I agree with them.

Ok Batman was a film and we are talking literay Bond, but the idea is the same. It's all to do with how you look at it and what mood you are in. A bond reboot feels good today!

Not to stray too far off into the world of comics, but since you mentioned Batman and others, it's not just the films that get an occasional reboot, but the comics from which they're derived. The iconic Superman first appeared in the '30s, of course, but each time his origin story is told, it's brought closer and closer to the present day...and the same is true for all of the Marvel characters, like Spiderman and Iron Man. Captain America still fought in WWII, but now he was revived in the '90s, vice the '60s.

I've always thought that the best reason for rebooting an heroic literary or cinematic hero is that it makes that character more accessible and enjoyable to a modern audience, particularly a young one. (Of course the argument oculd be made that James Bond is not a character really aimed at a young audience; he has one nonetheless. Deaver read Bond at eight, I believe, and I can recall reading Goldfinger and YOLT when I was about twelve.) There are some characters who are simply too good to be frozen in time - or even, in some cases, in terms of geography. Bond is most assuredly one of those.

[Zorin Industries]

Also Post 9/11 terrorists is there a possibility of a multi novel (and multi author) Orgnization here or perhaps Quantum?

It won't be Quantum.

[Trident]

Also Post 9/11 terrorists is there a possibility of a multi novel (and multi author) Orgnization here or perhaps Quantum?

It won't be Quantum.

Apart from that, I must say that I would for once prefer a nice, solid stand-alone work. The character of Bond can be developed within this, or over several books. But that development needn't necessarily fit into the familiar three-novel scheme. Let the plot just simply solve and close itself.

[DAN LIGHTER]

If I may think out loud, having been a fan of the Batman reboot (not a BIG fan of it before)it makes me wonder why it cant work for Bond. I know someone has mentioned comics in this thread before, and I agree with them.

Ok Batman was a film and we are talking literay Bond, but the idea is the same. It's all to do with how you look at it and what mood you are in. A bond reboot feels good today!

Not to stray too far off into the world of comics, but since you mentioned Batman and others, it's not just the films that get an occasional reboot, but the comics from which they're derived. The iconic Superman first appeared in the '30s, of course, but each time his origin story is told, it's brought closer and closer to the present day...and the same is true for all of the Marvel characters, like Spiderman and Iron Man. Captain America still fought in WWII, but now he was revived in the '90s, vice the '60s.

I've always thought that the best reason for rebooting an heroic literary or cinematic hero is that it makes that character more accessible and enjoyable to a modern audience, particularly a young one. (Of course the argument oculd be made that James Bond is not a character really aimed at a young audience; he has one nonetheless. Deaver read Bond at eight, I believe, and I can recall reading Goldfinger and YOLT when I was about twelve.) There are some characters who are simply too good to be frozen in time - or even, in some cases, in terms of geography. Bond is most assuredly one of those.

Thats my thinking also godwulf. The comic book world has opened up to me via the Batman reboot. I want to explore the history etc. So this could very well happen with a lit Bond reboot for younger readers, or readers new to Bond. And anyone who has a hard time getting their chops around it has the Fleming books to enjoy over and over again. It does no harm.

[godwulf]

Thats my thinking also godwulf. The comic book world has opened up to me via the Batman reboot. I want to explore the history etc. So this could very well happen with a lit Bond reboot for younger readers, or readers new to Bond. And anyone who has a hard time getting their chops around it has the Fleming books to enjoy over and over again. It does no harm.

I think about Sherlock Holmes, as another example - God, what hasn't been done to that character over the years? When I was a kid, I read the Conan Doyle stories and watched Basil Rathbone in the old movies, and I was happy. Then I re-read the stories as an adult, and saw a much odder, quirkier Holmes, whom Jeremy Brett subsequently brought to life with utter perfection.

Hundreds of pastiches and cinematic entries of varying degrees of quality later - and I must confess that the Peter Cook/Dudley Moore 'Hound of the Baskervilles' is one of my great guilty pleasures - and Conan Doyle's Holmes is as he ever was, in the same pages where he lived a century ago. And even though Brett got the Holmes character down, in terms of Conan Doyle's vision, I think, I can still enjoy Christopher Plummer in the wonderful "Murder by Decree", or Rick Boyer's The Giant Rat of Sumatra, or even Fritz Weaver singing Holmes in the original cast album of the musical "Baker Street".

My God. "James Bond: The Musical".

Gentlemen, please keep your seats.

[Tybre]

My God. "James Bond: The Musical".

Well, Hugh Jackman could finally land the role.

[TheREAL008]

Let's be careful not to turn this into a flame war. If Jeffery Deaver decides to read any thread on CBn, it will be this one, and it would be nice for him to see us at our best (not our worst).

If he makes it as far as page 26, that is.

Providing if he does and he doesn't get bored? Then someone get him a cookie.

[Quantumofsolace007]

Also Post 9/11 terrorists is there a possibility of a multi novel (and multi author) Orgnization here or perhaps Quantum?

It won't be Quantum.

I am curious if the villain in Project X will be a multi novel organization or not


and as for girls i'm hoping 2 at least possibly 3.

Love what i know so far about it

[OmarB]

I would prefer a first book that's an establishing story without the major villain. Think about it as Terry Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule. As far as the series goes it's the weakest book (though still a great book on it's own). But the book established the world, various threats, geography and "political climate" as it were. Sure the hero stats his quest and learns what his purpose is and all that, but putting him against the biggest of baddies will get him killed.

[Quantumofsolace007]

I would prefer a first book that's an establishing story without the major villain. Think about it as Terry Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule. As far as the series goes it's the weakest book (though still a great book on it's own). But the book established the world, various threats, geography and "political climate" as it were. Sure the hero stats his quest and learns what his purpose is and all that, but putting him against the biggest of baddies will get him killed.

no Doubt Deaver is probably gonna be doing that.


It;s weird cause i read the 12th card and hated it just couldn't get into the characters at all, and sowr I'd never read another Jeffery Deaver Novel. BUT here i am actually excited about one plus this is the bond i want.



The Idea that bond is somehow a period character only is absurd Fleming would be more then happy to have bond in 1965, 1975, 2011 etc Fleming from how i read the novels only want Bond to be set in the preasent not the past. Plus in a way we're in Cold war 2.0 so it's interesting to see Bond in said world. PLus a bond reboot is cool.

[zencat]

I just posted this in the Deaver book tour thread. Figured I'd put the info here as well:

Okay, I'm just back from JD LA #1. Great event. Nice small neighborhood mystery bookshop in Thousand Oaks. Very intimate setting and crowd. JD didn't do the typical read a passage from his book, etc., but instead performed this fantastic walk through a year in the "business" of being a writer, showing how a particular idea (a good idea at that) evolves and his process. Very funny and informative. In the end he talked about the future (which he has mapped out through 2013) and that's when he brought up Bond.

He repeated much what we've already heard -- Bond would be a veteran of Afghanistan (JD called it "Operation Herrick"), he said Bond would be "29 or 30", he really emphasized how he was going to present a modern version of Fleming's character which he called "dark." He also said he would do only one book.

Some new info was the book would span "4 or 5 days" and he's recently changed one of the "exotic locations" (no further clues about locations).

My question: I noted that, in their day, the Fleming books were considered quite sexy (even dirty by some critics) but that some of the recent continuation novels where pretty tame in this regard (especially DMC); was he was going to put some Fleming-like sex into his book? I don't remember his exact words but the answer was essentially a very big YES. Think he might have said something like, "I have a few scenes you're really going to like."

A nice personal treat was when I went up to get my book signed (I brought with me the CR with his intro), I introduced myself and he knew who I was (via IFP)! He said he's been meaning to get in touch and would do so when he was done with his tour. He even shook my hand. Very flattering moment.

He's also well aware now of the online reaction, although during the event he said he doesn't really engage all that much in "social media" (he's too busy writing), he gets stuff sent to him. I told/warned him there would be a Bond presence at the signing tomorrow, so let's not let him down.

Oh! He also said Daniel Craig was his favorite Bond, although he didn't care all that much for QOS.

[DAN LIGHTER]

You have got more front than Brighton Zencat!

I am intrigued to how he knew who you were via IFP? Did you say you were the Zencat?

[zencat]

Maybe it was more of a warning.

[DAN LIGHTER]

Great stuff. I like the fact that he talks about his writing process, sounds very interesting. If you meet up with him again Zencat, he might be interested about the Harrogate Book Festival. He is due to make an appearance there and might want to check out "James Bond Eat Your Heart Out" at 10am. Look like it's on just before his appearance.

http://www.harrogate...k/crime/events/

[Jeff007]

Nice to see that he's been doing his homework on Afghanistan.

The British operation in the war Operation Herrick.

Personally I know that the British Forces have been conducting heavy fighting over the years on the Helmand Province in the south of Afghanistan.

And yes this would include the Royal Navy and the SBS and Military Intelligence.

Could this be where Project X Bond will be fighting? Assassinations? 2 Kills? Approached by MI6?

Just guessing.