CARTE BLANCHE
#811
Posted 12 June 2010 - 08:13 AM
I've just finished reading my first Deaver book, The Sleeping Doll, and it was . I've started another one and so far it's so bland I can't even remember the title (it's a Lincoln Rhyme book). Add to this that I'm not impressed with Bond's supposed age in the new book, don't see the need for a reboot and think the whole 'Indian/Pakistanian' maid thing shows a foolhardy lack of research on his part but hey, I'm still looking forward to it. I'm quite happy to admit I've been wrong before and I have every hope that Deaver will prove me wrong again.
It's a new Bond novel, what should we do but celebrate? (Unless, of course, Jeffrey Archer had been announced as the author, in which case I would probably give up on Bond...)
#812
Posted 12 June 2010 - 08:38 AM
I don't know why but the idea doesn't actually play well inside my mind. Apart from that, I think it all sounds fine and fresh, not to mention with the sharpest of edges.
Harry Fawkes
#813
Posted 12 June 2010 - 11:34 AM
The next thing, re-boot fills me with horror. It is such a comic book geeky fan boy thing. Also it reeks like everything these days of a marketing angle. What is wrong with it just being the same old Bond? Who cares about a timeline and whether it was possible for him to have done this and that. If his whole history is ripped away from him it will simply not be Bond. Most of the films never worried. And to be honest even Casino Royale only paid lip service to it. (Just another of those marketing ploys to sell the film).
I really liked the fact the Higson’s and even the Moneypenny Diaries were set in period but though I am not totally against it set in the here and now the changes will throw the baby out with the bath water and we will just have another generic action hero and an American interpretation of an English spy to boot.
#814
Posted 12 June 2010 - 11:40 AM
I've just finished reading my first Deaver book, The Sleeping Doll, and it was . I've started another one and so far it's so bland I can't even remember the title (it's a Lincoln Rhyme book).
I was pondering this book for the next book in the Deaver Reading Club so it will be interesting to get your feedback on it when we move on from Garden of Beasts to it at the end of July.
#815
Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:21 PM
I have tried to stop myself being involved in this one because I can be such a pessimist. But I can hold back no longer. So far the whole Jeffery Deaver thing fills me with horror. For a start, (and I know I am going be shot down in flames here) the fact he is American is so wrong. I really believe only a British author can capture and just plain get that curious upper class snobbery and manners that are so prevalent in Fleming’s and even Amis’s books. No disrespect but you just don’t get it, as we just don’t get some of your mannerisms. That is one of the fatal flaws that run through Benson’s books. The only American writer that seems to capture it is Maibaum and I suspect Terence Young had a lot to do with it.
The next thing, re-boot fills me with horror. It is such a comic book geeky fan boy thing. Also it reeks like everything these days of a marketing angle. What is wrong with it just being the same old Bond? Who cares about a timeline and whether it was possible for him to have done this and that. If his whole history is ripped away from him it will simply not be Bond. Most of the films never worried. And to be honest even Casino Royale only paid lip service to it. (Just another of those marketing ploys to sell the film).
I really liked the fact the Higson’s and even the Moneypenny Diaries were set in period but though I am not totally against it set in the here and now the changes will throw the baby out with the bath water and we will just have another generic action hero and an American interpretation of an English spy to boot.
Well, obviously it is horses for courses. While I don't agree with them I can understand some of your doubts very well. I trust you 'll give X-Bond a try at least nonetheless?
#816
Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:03 PM
The only issue I have with regards to Deaver's 're-boot' is the 'Indian/Pakistani' servant feature.
I don't know why but the idea doesn't actually play well inside my mind. Apart from that, I think it all sounds fine and fresh, not to mention with the sharpest of edges.
Harry Fawkes
With no disrespect to anybody's concerns, I find that a lot of members are getting too worked up over the detail of the servant. If she is a minor character then it really doesn't matter anyway. If she is a significant character, then her nationality will have been chosen for a specific reason that will likely make sense once we have read and understood the context of the novel.
#817
Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:29 PM
Daniel Craig got a lot of premature flak when he was first announced as the new Bond, but a lot of people (though not all) have changed there mind about him. It's possible the same could happen for Jeffery Deaver.
But one's mind definitely will never be changed, and I suspect one will never really like a continuation novel, as long as comparisons to Fleming continue. No one's going to write like Fleming (also, I think we wear rose-colored glasses in regards to Fleming's writing sometimes). For some, moving away from Fleming is a deal-breaker, and I guess there's no help for that. But I suspect those people will never be satisfied with a new Bond novel.
#818
Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:40 PM
It's a reasonable fear, MarkA. But I think the calculation is that what Deaver may lack when it comes to really understanding the British he will make up with the fact that he really understands the thriller. Certainly the calculation worked (or didn't) with Faulks going the other way. Also think IFP may hope Deaver helps crack the US market, which has been a trick and is important for the continuation of the Project X series.I have tried to stop myself being involved in this one because I can be such a pessimist. But I can hold back no longer. So far the whole Jeffery Deaver thing fills me with horror. For a start, (and I know I am going be shot down in flames here) the fact he is American is so wrong. I really believe only a British author can capture and just plain get that curious upper class snobbery and manners that are so prevalent in Fleming’s and even Amis’s books. No disrespect but you just don’t get it, as we just don’t get some of your mannerisms. That is one of the fatal flaws that run through Benson’s books. The only American writer that seems to capture it is Maibaum and I suspect Terence Young had a lot to do with it.
I would be more concerned if Deaver didn't love Bond. I think getting the nature of the Bond universe is more important than understanding Britain (but I'm sure an argument could be made it's the same thing). I think being a reboot will help. He's not stepping into the shoes of Fleming the way other authors had to. And he's just doing one book, so if it's not your cup of tea (Brits still drink tea, right?) then you can hope for a British writer the next time. Again, I'm less worried about the nationality of the writer than I am the nature of what they love to write and their understanding of Bond. But I understand being apprehensive about an American writer. We'll see.
#819
Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:42 PM
It may be true that only a Brit could write Bond well, but there's not enough evidence to conclude that yet. There's only been one American who's tried it, and he wasn't a fiction writer when he began it.
Daniel Craig got a lot of premature flak when he was first announced as the new Bond, but a lot of people (though not all) have changed there mind about him. It's possible the same could happen for Jeffery Deaver.
But one's mind definitely will never be changed, and I suspect one will never really like a continuation novel, as long as comparisons to Fleming continue. No one's going to write like Fleming (also, I think we wear rose-colored glasses in regards to Fleming's writing sometimes). For some, moving away from Fleming is a deal-breaker, and I guess there's no help for that. But I suspect those people will never be satisfied with a new Bond novel.
You're right that nobody will write Bond the way Fleming did. And even if they did, they would be ridiculed for sounding too much like Fleming instead of using their own "voice."
It's always going to be a mish-mash of expectaction and opinion - as it should be - which is why everybody should just enjoy - or not enjoy - the continuation novels as they choose to. The point is, however, you can only choose to enjoy or not enjoy the continuation novels once you have read them. Anybody coming down on Deaver now and trying to tear his book apart before it's even written is not really justified in doing so. Daniel Craig haters largely learned that lesson years ago (though some still dislike him, and are entitled to do so now that they have seen him at work).
#820
Posted 12 June 2010 - 04:18 PM
If so then that's fab.
I was under the impression that the servant was going to be a male; you know something on the lines of Anthony Hopkins and his manservant in the Wolfman.
If it is a female then I'm most certainly fine with that.
Project X roll on:)
Harry
#821
Posted 12 June 2010 - 04:55 PM
Hey guys, is the servant going to be a female?
If so then that's fab.
I was under the impression that the servant was going to be a male; you know something on the lines of Anthony Hopkins and his manservant in the Wolfman.
If it is a female then I'm most certainly fine with that.
Project X roll on:)
Harry
It'll be a young man - more of a ward, actually - and his name will be Dick. He, too, will suit up and assist Bond in fighting crime around the world.
#822
Posted 12 June 2010 - 04:57 PM
For a start, (and I know I am going be shot down in flames here) the fact he is American is so wrong. I really believe only a British author can capture and just plain get that curious upper class snobbery and manners that are so prevalent in Fleming’s and even Amis’s books. No disrespect but you just don’t get it, as we just don’t get some of your mannerisms.
As an American, I fully agree that this is a reasonable concern. Part of the charm of Fleming's writing, for me, is the (sometimes obvious, sometimes subtle) British-ness of the writing - descriptions, as well as dialogue - that I'm not convinced an American writer, even a very good one, is going to be able to pull off, or is even likely to attempt. Fleming might have had something of a tin ear when it came to how real Americans speak, but his own nationality, and that of his British characters, was never in question.
One of my major gripes with Gardner - and I've just finished TMFB, so I've only a few to go - is how, particularly in the later books, he seems constantly to be pandering to his American readers...constantly translating and explaining things at length, sometimes even in the dialogue (..."as our American cousins would say"...) and tossing in American cultural references for no apparent reason.
That's certainly not to suggest that a writer of the caliber of Jeffrey Deaver would ever be likely to engage in such silly and annoying antics; nevertheless - and I certainly hope I'm wrong - I suspect that the subtle, almost indefinable British perspective that permeates the Fleming books (and so many of my other favorites) will be lacking, if not entirely absent.
The next thing, re-boot fills me with horror. It is such a comic book geeky fan boy thing. Also it reeks like everything these days of a marketing angle. What is wrong with it just being the same old Bond? Who cares about a timeline and whether it was possible for him to have done this and that. If his whole history is ripped away from him it will simply not be Bond. Most of the films never worried.
I wonder how fans of the films - which, for the most part, I must confess I'm not - could ever seriously claim to be concerned with continuity, since the main character's face completely changes every ten years?
As for the matter of continuity with the books, if a novel set in present day is going to feature "the same old Bond", with the known and recorded history intact, either, as an example, the events of Goldfinger are going to have to have occurred just a few years ago, rather than in the late '50s, or we're stuck with a James Bond who is ninety years old. One tampers considerably with the history, moving events a whole fifty years along, while the alternative promises a very, very slow-paced adventure.
#823
Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:05 PM
I know what you mean, but I actually think he's doing that for British readers (or editors). Remember, Gardner is living in America when he's writing these 90s books and he's picking up in Americanisms that, as an author, probably amuse him. He's got some new insight into the crazy way crazy Americans talk and naturally wants to work them in, but he feels the need to flag them as peculiar and America. And some of them are peculiar (and I think maybe more provincial than Gardner understands).One of my major gripes with Gardner - and I've just finished TMFB, so I've only a few to go - is how, particularly in the later books, he seems constantly to be pandering to his American readers...constantly translating and explaining things at length, sometimes even in the dialogue (..."as our American cousins would say"...) and tossing in American cultural references for no apparent reason.
#824
Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:13 PM
I know what you mean, but I actually think he's doing that for British readers (or editors). Remember, Gardner is living in America when he's writing these 90s books and he's picking up in Americanisms that, as an author, probably amuse him. He's got some new insight into the crazy way crazy Americans talk and naturally wants to work them in, but he feels the need to flag them as peculiar and America. And some of them are peculiar (and I think maybe more provincial than Gardner understands).
I absolutely agree that Gardner was tossing these things into the stories because they amused him. As a reader, however, I'm not amused by them. I think Gardner was acting very self-indulgently, and the stories suffered for it.
#825
Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:15 PM
Gardner was getting bored near the end of his reign so it doesn't surprise me that he did things like that to keep him sane.I know what you mean, but I actually think he's doing that for British readers (or editors). Remember, Gardner is living in America when he's writing these 90s books and he's picking up in Americanisms that, as an author, probably amuse him. He's got some new insight into the crazy way crazy Americans talk and naturally wants to work them in, but he feels the need to flag them as peculiar and America. And some of them are peculiar (and I think maybe more provincial than Gardner understands).
I absolutely agree that Gardner was tossing these things into the stories because they amused him. As a reader, however, I'm not amused by them. I think Gardner was acting very self-indulgently, and the stories suffered for it.
#826
Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:18 PM
Yeah, even though I'm perfectly fine with the old approach, I think we may have reached the point where we have to reboot Bond to have convincing present day adventures in any form. Time has marched on and the idea of this man from the 50s/60s in present day is just a little too weird (or old fashioned) for people that haven't ridden Bond via Roger and Gardner into present day. Sad but true. Maybe this is why I still love my Gardner books and Roger films. That's how we did Bond back then.The next thing, re-boot fills me with horror. It is such a comic book geeky fan boy thing. Also it reeks like everything these days of a marketing angle. What is wrong with it just being the same old Bond? Who cares about a timeline and whether it was possible for him to have done this and that. If his whole history is ripped away from him it will simply not be Bond. Most of the films never worried.
As for the matter of continuity with the books, if a novel set in present day is going to feature "the same old Bond", with the known and recorded history intact, either, as an example, the events of Goldfinger are going to have to have occurred just a few years ago, rather than in the late '50s, or we're stuck with a James Bond who is ninety years old. One tampers considerably with the history, moving events a whole fifty years along, while the alternative promises a very, very slow-paced adventure.
Hey, it was the early 90s, Gardner was the only guy giving us our Bond fix. Whatever kept him going was fine by me.I absolutely agree that Gardner was tossing these things into the stories because they amused him. As a reader, however, I'm not amused by them. I think Gardner was acting very self-indulgently, and the stories suffered for it.
#827
Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:20 PM
I think as 'Britishness' goes (whatever one may understand under such a most peculiar designation) Bond himself may actually not exactly live up to the standards of an epitome. One could even argue Bond, Fleming's Bond, had something distinctly 'un-british' about him (see for example his musings in MR).
But of course, there could be little 'Britishness' in Bond but still a lot in Fleming's novels. Often mentioned in this regard is the snobbery and the line of the argument is, this would be somehow untranslatable, perhaps particularly for Americans (but not confined to them).
Well, I'd like to argue the opposite. Yes, there certainly exists a distinctive difference in mannerismns, customs and so on. But in my opinion these are not what constitutes a Bond novel, or a 'real' Bond novel, if that's more to your liking. And these customary peculiarities of Great Britain in my opinion are not about 'upper class' and 'snobbism'. Both these can be part of it, but they don't constitute the entire sum of differences between the UK and the USA.
Uncontroversial I think is the fact that snobbism of a kind is a trademark ingredient of Bond. But since the days of Fleming snobbism has come a very long way and is today as universal and global as world economy allows. One might argue that this is a cheap, mercantile version of the elitist snobbery of the good old, bad old days of Fleming, designed to sell ludicrously overpriced brand dreck to the masses. And that's surely right.
Alas, it doesn't impair on the basic argument, that today we live in a most snobbish era, far beyond what our ancestors could ever have dreamed about. A universal age of luxury and wealth and even kindergarten kids define themselves and their surroundings by brands and labels. If anything, we witness an abundance of snobbery (regardless of nationality), not a shortage.
So my personal opinion is that a writer may or may not be able to write a good Bond novel. But the basic ability has little or nothing at all to do with nationality IMO and I'd rather have an American penning a decent Bond adventure than a horrible one by a Brit.
#828
Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:32 PM
The only issue I have with regards to Deaver's 're-boot' is the 'Indian/Pakistani' servant feature.
I don't know why but the idea doesn't actually play well inside my mind. Apart from that, I think it all sounds fine and fresh, not to mention with the sharpest of edges.
Harry Fawkes
With no disrespect to anybody's concerns, I find that a lot of members are getting too worked up over the detail of the servant. If she is a minor character then it really doesn't matter anyway. If she is a significant character, then her nationality will have been chosen for a specific reason that will likely make sense once we have read and understood the context of the novel.
No one's objecting to the character's nationality. What some people (myself included) are concerned about is Deaver's apparent belief that the majority of domestic helpers in the United Kingdom are Indian or Pakistani, which would suggest that his research into British life is appalling.
I wonder whether the book will include a reference to "the oil spill caused by the English company British Petroleum"?
#829
Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:51 PM
I wonder whether the book will include a reference to "the oil spill caused by the English company British Petroleum"?
James Bond headed into the London Underground Station at Sloane Square, not far from the Chelsea apartment he shared. He was pleased to use public transport these days, rather than accept the offer of the Company Car from his employees.
Suddenly, he thought about the oil spill caused by the English company British Petroelum and suddely felt a sense of guilt at being part English.
He thought of Tony Hayward, the company's Chief Executive Office. He wasn't like CEO's is the United States - he'd seemed too full of self-interest - and didn't understand the feelings of the American people, considered James Bond.
President Barrack Obama certainly did. Bond admired President Obama greatly. (Suddenly though he had a 50s flashback - was there something wrong; why did he suddenly feel like calling the US President a "microphone head"?).
And he cast his mind back less than twelve months. And the chants of those soccer fans on that Saturday night.
"We don't give a about the wildlife in the Gulf". The chants rang through his head as he remembered the eighth goal slipped past the American goaltender, and the vulgar gesture of the scorer toward his shirt badge, the American fans and then the English.
Yes, at times James Bond felt ashamed to be English. Even half English. Indeed, there was so much about him that he even wondered if he were English in anyway at all.
#830
Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:54 PM
All sounds good to me.
#831
Posted 12 June 2010 - 06:03 PM
What some people (myself included) are concerned about is Deaver's apparent belief that the majority of domestic helpers in the United Kingdom are Indian or Pakistani, which would suggest that his research into British life is appalling.
How, exactly, would Bond's having an Eastern domestic mean or imply that Deaver (or anyone else) thought that "the majority" of such workers were of that ethnicity?
Was Bond's driving a Bentley a statement to the effect that most Brits did so?
Sorry, but I don't understand why 007, of all people, has got to be "typical".
#832
Posted 12 June 2010 - 06:12 PM
"Bond gulped down his scrambled eggs and brunt toast prepared to perfection by his new maidservant, April, the product of a Scottish father and Indian mother whose was the most perfectly shaped orb he had ever laid eyes on."
#833
Posted 12 June 2010 - 06:19 PM
"Bond gulped down his scrambled eggs and brunt toast prepared to perfection by his new maidservant, April, the product of a Scottish father and Indian mother whose was the most perfectly shaped orb he had ever laid eyes on."
Any way she could be twins?
#834
Posted 12 June 2010 - 06:21 PM
I predict more ink has been spilled here on this whole May replacement thing than will be spilled in the book itself.
"Bond gulped down his scrambled eggs and brunt toast prepared to perfection by his new maidservant, April, the product of a Scottish father and Indian mother whose was the most perfectly shaped orb he had ever laid eyes on."
You missed the next paragraph, though, Zen.
"She was a deep Al Qaeda agent.
But her employer, James Bond, was too young to notice that. She smiled to herself."
#835
Posted 12 June 2010 - 06:26 PM
#836
Posted 12 June 2010 - 06:51 PM
And he knew that practical oberservational skills of espionage were not his strong suit. But he was young and frsh to this game and he knew he would learn. Despite anyone who might think it was too early to have promoted him."
#837
Posted 12 June 2010 - 07:00 PM
#838
Posted 12 June 2010 - 07:02 PM
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think his age might actually be right. In reality, I think these guys are damn young. Heck, 28 might even be considered seasoned for an assassin/sniper/commando. It's a new world, baby. James Bond would be a deadly young bastard. It's who I'd want doing my killing.
You must be feeling old like me, then.
#839
Posted 12 June 2010 - 07:05 PM
Hell, I already went through it with Craig. He's younger than I am. Cooler too. Everyone in movies nowadays are younger and cooler than I am! I've made my peace with this.You know, the more I think about it, the more I think his age might actually be right. In reality, I think these guys are damn young. Heck, 28 might even be considered seasoned for an assassin/sniper/commando. It's a new world, baby. James Bond would be a deadly young bastard. It's who I'd want doing my killing.
You must be feeling old like me, then.
But I'm still living vicariously through Bond, but in a different way. He's the man I would have liked to have been instead of the man I'd like to become. Still works.
#840
Posted 12 June 2010 - 07:08 PM
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think his age might actually be right. In reality, I think these guys are damn young. Heck, 28 might even be considered seasoned for an assassin/sniper/commando. It's a new world, baby. James Bond would be a deadly young bastard. It's who I'd want doing my killing.
In reality there is little room for active special forces service beyond 30. It's really not unlike professional sports, the air gets decidedly thinner in the third decade. But what's really concerning me is Bond's rank. There is no way such a young lad is going to be Commander, not even after he prevented a nuclear attack on London by a Nazi. The only reason Fleming, Bond and lots of others got promoted so high is because the war killed the elders by the dozen and younger officers rode the promotion train in top speed. Not very likely today.