117 replies to this topic

[BryanHerbert]

I didn't see that. I get what your saying now. Well that could of been a big factor to the bond theme itself. That gun barrel a few posts up with that theme was pretty cool.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I didn't see that. I get what your saying now. Well that could of been a big factor to the bond theme itself. That gun barrel a few posts up with that theme was pretty cool.

I'm glad you finally got it; thank you.

Also, now that we're done arguing, what do you think of the connection to "String of Pearls"? I now remember listening to it ages ago and being struck by the opening's similarity to the Bond theme fanfare, but it slipped my mind until the other night...

[darthbond]

I remember that the booklet I got from the 40th anniversary CD said that John had borrowed from his previously recorded "Bea's Knees" instrumental. Any confirmation to that?

darthbond

[Mr. Blofeld]

I remember that the booklet I got from the 40th anniversary CD said that John had borrowed from his previously recorded "Bea's Knees" instrumental. Any confirmation to that

I couldn't readily find it online, so I didn't include it; the other pieces I've gathered up are, I think, evidence enough.

[Mr. Blofeld]

On that note, is it possible someone could e-mail me a decent copy of Bee's Knees, so as to give it a listen?

[coco1997]

I didn't post that that video link. i don't even know what the point of that video was. Elvis song Surrender was also released in 1961.

I know; did you miss my point? "Poor Me" came out in 1960, the year before Elvis's "Surrender"; the video I posted is the original Italian tune that inspired "Surrender", "Torna a Surriento", and it doesn't sound anything like the Bond theme.

Notice how I had to repeat my point? "Do pay attention, 007!"

Very bon.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I didn't post that that video link. i don't even know what the point of that video was. Elvis song Surrender was also released in 1961.

I know; did you miss my point? "Poor Me" came out in 1960, the year before Elvis's "Surrender"; the video I posted is the original Italian tune that inspired "Surrender", "Torna a Surriento", and it doesn't sound anything like the Bond theme.

Notice how I had to repeat my point? "Do pay attention, 007!"

Very bon.

Thankee, sire.

[Peckinpah1976]

Sorry for asking a daft question but; is the version on the opening of Dr.No arranged by John Barry then? Not being particularly interested in music I've never given it much thought and have always assumed that Norman scored the first film in it's entirety and that Barry's association with the series didn't begin until FRWL.

Well I never....

[Mr. Blofeld]

Sorry for asking a daft question but; is the version on the opening of Dr.No arranged by John Barry then? Not being particularly interested in music I've never given it much thought and have always assumed that Norman scored the first film in it's entirety and that Barry's association with the series didn't begin until FRWL.

Well I never....

Yes, it is; it's the reason why the producers called him back to score FRWL, especially once they found out that Lionel Bart (the fellow they had gotten to write the title song and, originally, the score) could not read music.

There was a great big whopping segment devoted to John Barry's hiring on the Inside Dr. No docu on the DVD, so I'm surprised you had no knowledge that Barry was the main composer of the theme (Norman wrote a primitive version of the riff, but, still...).

[Peckinpah1976]

Somehow missed that completely; despite having watched that documentary on both DVD releases and on the Blu-Ray.....

[Mr. Blofeld]

Somehow missed that completely; despite having watched that documentary on both DVD releases and on the Blu-Ray.....

So... who do you think wrote more of the theme, now that you've considered it: Barry or Norman?

[Mr. Blofeld]

Well... I think I've let this thread sit long enough; what do all you early-birds out there think?

To start again, this is why we're all here:

This is a link to Monty Norman's website, featuring a CD of his latest output (which, surprisingly enough, is nowhere near as sophisticated as any of John Barry's later works):

http://www.montynorm...sic/music01.asp

This is Poor Me, by Adam Faith and the John Barry Seven, featuring an opening very similar to Barry's recording of the James Bond theme (also, note the mention of Buddy Holly in the text at the beginning; that'll become important later):

This is Beat Girl, by the John Barry Seven; notice how the electric guitar dominates this piece, and how the horns supplement (but are not equal partners with the guitar) on the track, unlike the Bond theme:

This is Hit and Miss, a popular piece by the John Barry Seven that is is nearly the same key as the James Bond theme:

This is Misirlou, an ethnic-sounding piece by Dick Dale and the Deltones; it came out earlier in 1962, and may have influenced Barry on the Bond theme, as, in this tune, the horns (like in the theme) come out quite strongly, as an equal partner, for the second half of the tune:

This is "String of Pearls", a big band tune by Glenn Miller from the 1940s which I believe is the source of the Bond theme riff; listen carefully to the beginning, as on unsuspecting first-listen, it caught me completely off guard:

Now, this is where we get back to Buddy Holly: In the Poor Me! video, it is mentioned that Barry's early music with the Seven was influenced by American musician Buddy Holly; I can hear clear similarities, especially in the string-filled transitions, between one of Holly's best works, True Love Ways, and the title song for You Only Live Twice:

I seriously doubt that Norman had any such influences to draw upon, nor that he would have expanded upon them and developed musically to such a wonderful degree within five short years...

In conclusion, we Bond music lovers are quite lucky we got Barry instead of Norman, especially as it's Barry, not Norman, who dominates the theme:

[dee-bee-five]

Do we? Some people are making some extraordinary assertions on here without, it seems, any evidence to back them up.

Read the thread, or the report on the court case. Fact is, from many peoples' point of view there's a feeling that Norman perhaps wrote the keystone to the melody in the form of the riff, whereas the other elements have more of a Barry signature about them.
There's doubt there: if you had written such a great piece as the Bond theme wouldn't you have included more than just one section of it in the score to the film you've written it for? It's not enough to be certain about and I would never say for certain that it's wrong to call Norman the sole writer of the theme, but it's a complicated origin.

The fact that the credit for the James Bond Theme is, and always was "written by Monty Norman, arranged by John Barry" seems utterly beyond the grasp of some fans.

That depends if you always unquestioningly accept what's given to you or whether you have the ability to think for yourself.
Yes, he undeniably originated it. Is there more to it than that? We've been given reason to think that there might be, including John Barry at times saying that he did write it (statements he's since retracted- it's up to you to consider if that's purely down to his own sense of right and wrong).
Yes, that is the correct credit for the version of the Bond theme we know and I don't think anyone would like to say as fact that's it's wrong, but even the definition of 'arranged' in that sentence doesn't seem to be entirely clear and the two men apparently disagree themselves.

I don't know who wrote what or made the the tea in the recording studio that day, but since that has been the credit established since 1962, it seems rather silly to keep raking over these long cold ashes.

It's a bloody Bond forum. There are still people talking about films made nearly 50 years ago on here. It's what happens here.

Besides, the matter was settled in court. Fans can piss in the wind as much as they like about the outcome - as I could about the outcome of McClory's case against Fleming if I were inclined - but it won't change anything one jot.

I think you've completely misunderstood the point of this site: it isn't here to try and throw out legal judgements: we're just a bunch of fans having a chat based around our own personal opinions. What did you think we were trying to do?

Why the hostility? I'm perfectly aware of what happens on this site and that it comprises a bunch of fans having a chat. At its best this is what gives it its charm. But when discussions occasionally become anal, as this one has, its sometimes necessary to take a step back and remind ourselves that it's the kind of thing that gives fandom as a whole its negative image.

Fans can piss in the wind as much as they like about the outcome

That's why most threads here exist and thrive. Though if you're going to have a hissy fit about it you should prepare to get pissed on yourself.

Charming as ever. Careful you don't sever an artery with that rapier wit of yours.

[Mr. Blofeld]

So... no comment on that last video, then? None, at all?

[marktmurphy]

Why the hostility?

Because you utterly ignore the entire conversation and all points raised. That's a very dismissive and quite rude thing to do. Why would you expect such a statement to be warmly greeted?

I'm perfectly aware of what happens on this site and that it comprises a bunch of fans having a chat. At its best this is what gives it its charm. But when discussions occasionally become anal, as this one has, its sometimes necessary to take a step back and remind ourselves that it's the kind of thing that gives fandom as a whole its negative image.

Well, for starters; no it's not. It's not your place to do so, and frankly, if anyone was worried that they may appear anal fans to anyone (who's looking at a fan forum expecting anything but anal discussion?) they've come to the wrong place.
I've seen much more anal discussions than this one on fan forums; this is nothing close. If it were so anal and uninteresting, why have the court cases discussing the authorship of the case been worthy of printing in international newspapers worldwide? It's hardly 'what wallpaper did Drax decorate his château with?' anal: it's pretty big stuff where Bond is concerned. Perhaps your judgement is utterly off.
So: you're just plain wrong; and even if you weren't- this is the one place where fans are supposed to be welcome to post their views on the details of Bond. If you want to be in the greenhouse, don't throw stones.
That's why the hostility.

So... no comment on that last video, then? None, at all?

NIce bit of work; the addition of the Beat Girl trumpet blasts is a little odd as you're basically trying to manufacture the Bond theme from samples of individual notes there, and I'm not sure the Glenn Miller bit is really rock-solid proof: who's saying Norman had never heard Miller? But generally, yeah- the Barry sound is obviously evident in his version of the Bond theme.
Actually, I might find it even more persuasive if, instead of arranging bits of his work into the Bond theme structure, you presented a piece of his work which used the same structure. I do wonder if the vamp-riff-bebop-coda-vamp-riff-bebop-coda structure is something he came up with.

[Mr. Blofeld]

So... no comment on that last video, then? None, at all?

Nice bit of work; the addition of the Beat Girl trumpet blasts is a little odd as you're basically trying to manufacture the Bond theme from samples of individual notes there, and I'm not sure the Glenn Miller bit is really rock-solid proof: who's saying Norman had never heard Miller? But generally, yeah- the Barry sound is obviously evident in his version of the Bond theme.

Actually, I might find it even more persuasive if, instead of arranging bits of his work into the Bond theme structure, you presented a piece of his work which used the same structure. I do wonder if the vamp-riff-bebop-coda-vamp-riff-bebop-coda structure is something he came up with.

Well, what I was trying to do was show how he cobbled bits and pieces of his earlier works into the structure of the Bond theme; the trumpet blasts from "Beat Girl" were meant to show how, standing in for the "bebop" section of the Bond theme, "Beat Girl"'s trumpet blasts would stand in for the quiet "da-duh, da-daah" portions during the second repetition of the guitar riff.

Other than that, however, thank you for your positive reception.

[The Shark]

Do we? Some people are making some extraordinary assertions on here without, it seems, any evidence to back them up.

Read the thread, or the report on the court case. Fact is, from many peoples' point of view there's a feeling that Norman perhaps wrote the keystone to the melody in the form of the riff, whereas the other elements have more of a Barry signature about them.
There's doubt there: if you had written such a great piece as the Bond theme wouldn't you have included more than just one section of it in the score to the film you've written it for? It's not enough to be certain about and I would never say for certain that it's wrong to call Norman the sole writer of the theme, but it's a complicated origin.

The fact that the credit for the James Bond Theme is, and always was "written by Monty Norman, arranged by John Barry" seems utterly beyond the grasp of some fans.

That depends if you always unquestioningly accept what's given to you or whether you have the ability to think for yourself.
Yes, he undeniably originated it. Is there more to it than that? We've been given reason to think that there might be, including John Barry at times saying that he did write it (statements he's since retracted- it's up to you to consider if that's purely down to his own sense of right and wrong).
Yes, that is the correct credit for the version of the Bond theme we know and I don't think anyone would like to say as fact that's it's wrong, but even the definition of 'arranged' in that sentence doesn't seem to be entirely clear and the two men apparently disagree themselves.

I don't know who wrote what or made the the tea in the recording studio that day, but since that has been the credit established since 1962, it seems rather silly to keep raking over these long cold ashes.

It's a bloody Bond forum. There are still people talking about films made nearly 50 years ago on here. It's what happens here.

Besides, the matter was settled in court. Fans can piss in the wind as much as they like about the outcome - as I could about the outcome of McClory's case against Fleming if I were inclined - but it won't change anything one jot.

I think you've completely misunderstood the point of this site: it isn't here to try and throw out legal judgements: we're just a bunch of fans having a chat based around our own personal opinions. What did you think we were trying to do?

Why the hostility? I'm perfectly aware of what happens on this site and that it comprises a bunch of fans having a chat. At its best this is what gives it its charm. But when discussions occasionally become anal, as this one has, its sometimes necessary to take a step back and remind ourselves that it's the kind of thing that gives fandom as a whole its negative image.

Fans can piss in the wind as much as they like about the outcome

That's why most threads here exist and thrive. Though if you're going to have a hissy fit about it you should prepare to get pissed on yourself.

Charming as ever. Careful you don't sever an artery with that rapier wit of yours.

I promise they'll be no bad blood, because I draw a line in the sand at snide and backhanded comments. Either way, no need to treat me like the sword of Damocles. I Was simply matching your unnecessary hostility to like-minded fans with my own. Aorta stop now.

The Shark.

[Mr. Blofeld]

So... now that this is all over, back to the basics, shall we?

[The Shark]

This web-page might interest you Blofeld, contains a lot of references to the songs you mentioned.

http://www.jollinger...rry/lawsuit.htm

[Mr. Blofeld]

Hmmmmm... seems like the wrong man won the lawsuit.

[alan_more]

Hmmmmm... seems like the wrong man won the lawsuit.

What the legal facts are:
The JBT only original notes are the Dum Di Dum Dum Dum five notes.
From a composer standpoint, all other stuff can be found in hundreds of existing american band music.
So Barry added 95% of the theme, but he was using standard arranging cues, not considered composed.

So yes what we hear of the James Bond Theme is definitely the John Barry sound but the original unique notes are Norman's.

[The Shark]

Hmmmmm... seems like the wrong man won the lawsuit.

What the legal facts are:
The JBT only original notes are the Dum Di Dum Dum Dum five notes.
From a composer standpoint, all other stuff can be found in hundreds of existing american band music.
So Barry added 95% of the theme, but he was using standard arranging cues, not considered composed.

So yes what we hear of the James Bond Theme is definitely the John Barry sound but the original unique notes are Norman's.

The original notes that Norman composed for Good Sign Bad Sign are hardly that original either, any more than Barry's.

They worked very formulaically within the parameters of the lower minor tetrachord (in this case E minor - E, F#, G, A), unless you're talking about the Duh Daaaaaaah Dahdum Daaaah bit played by the guitar at the end of the phrase.

Edited by The Shark, 04 December 2009 - 10:43 PM.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Hmmmmm... seems like the wrong man won the lawsuit.

What the legal facts are:
The JBT only original notes are the Dum Di Dum Dum Dum five notes.
From a composer standpoint, all other stuff can be found in hundreds of existing american band music. So Barry added 95% of the theme, but he was using standard arranging cues, not considered composed. So yes what we hear of the James Bond Theme is definitely the John Barry sound but the original unique notes are Norman's.

The original notes that Norman composed for Good Sign Bad Sign are hardly that original either, any more than Barry's.

They worked very formulaically within the parameters of the lower minor tetrachord (in this case E minor - E, F#, G, A), unless you're talking about the Duh Daaaaaaah Dahdum Daaaah bit played by the guitar at the end of the phrase.

According to Norman, that formed the chorus of "Good Sign, Bad Sign"; however, Barry placed the stresses given to the certain notes in different places than Norman's original Indian-influenced composition... therefore, the grouping of these notes, and thus, the alteration of them to form a new composition, are all John Barry's doing, and renders it, by default, his work.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Thought I might bring this up, in case anybody from MI6 would like to comment...

[Mr. Blofeld]

Interesting take on the Bond theme, played by two guys with Eigenharps; even though they mess up the opening chords, it's still pretty awesome to watch:

http://www.i-am-bore...m?link_id=45715

[ggl]

Well... I think I've let this thread sit long enough; what do all you early-birds out there think?

To start again, this is why we're all here:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...c493bZM&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

This is a link to Monty Norman's website, featuring a CD of his latest output (which, surprisingly enough, is nowhere near as sophisticated as any of John Barry's later works):

http://www.montynorm...sic/music01.asp

This is Poor Me, by Adam Faith and the John Barry Seven, featuring an opening very similar to Barry's recording of the James Bond theme (also, note the mention of Buddy Holly in the text at the beginning; that'll become important later):

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...1PdF9p4&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

This is Beat Girl, by the John Barry Seven; notice how the electric guitar dominates this piece, and how the horns supplement (but are not equal partners with the guitar) on the track, unlike the Bond theme:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c..._wDmWW4&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

This is Hit and Miss, a popular piece by the John Barry Seven that is is nearly the same key as the James Bond theme:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...A7B23G8&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

This is Misirlou, an ethnic-sounding piece by Dick Dale and the Deltones; it came out earlier in 1962, and may have influenced Barry on the Bond theme, as, in this tune, the horns (like in the theme) come out quite strongly, as an equal partner, for the second half of the tune:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...Oh8efaQ&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

This is "String of Pearls", a big band tune by Glenn Miller from the 1940s which I believe is the source of the Bond theme riff; listen carefully to the beginning, as on unsuspecting first-listen, it caught me completely off guard:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...o08giGk&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Now, this is where we get back to Buddy Holly: In the Poor Me! video, it is mentioned that Barry's early music with the Seven was influenced by American musician Buddy Holly; I can hear clear similarities, especially in the string-filled transitions, between one of Holly's best works, True Love Ways, and the title song for You Only Live Twice:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...PtPmoy4&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...QPgHyek&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

I seriously doubt that Norman had any such influences to draw upon, nor that he would have expanded upon them and developed musically to such a wonderful degree within five short years...

In conclusion, we Bond music lovers are quite lucky we got Barry instead of Norman, especially as it's Barry, not Norman, who dominates the theme:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.c...></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.c...wVmz2EI&fmt=18" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Great work, Mr. Blofeld!
I love the way you put those rare songs together. In my opinion not much for Glen Miller, but brilliant work anyhow...

[Mr_Wint]

A lot of people here mention Norman's composition, "Good Sign, Bad Sign". It would have been VERY interesting to hear or see the original version of this song. Only then can we say if Norman brought something to the final theme. But the only thing we have right now is a version of "Good Sign, Bad Sign" which Norman created several years later. I guess we have to take him at his word, eh? I don't call this facts.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Great work, Mr. Blofeld!
I love the way you put those rare songs together. In my opinion not much for Glen Miller, but brilliant work anyhow...

Thanks very much, ggl; even if the Miller didn't convince, I'm glad this sort of sound-collage was able to convince you, anyhow...