117 replies to this topic

[Mr. Blofeld]

Just wanted to hear opinions; I feel Barry did the majority of the work, as Norman's original tune from A House for Mr. Biswas is so ludicrously bad that it's a wonder it was even considered for the theme.

Anybody else? A poll, maybe?

[The Cat]

Unless you want to get sued, you don't ask this sort of questions.

Everybody knows Monty Norman wrote the whole of the James Bond Theme - even the parts he didn't write.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

Norman wrote the theme, but to me it speaks volumes Barry was the one who was invited back to score the future Bond movies.

[Cruiserweight]

Norman wrote it
Barry perfected it

[MarkA]

The melody was clearly Norman's. There are snatches of it in Norman's incidental music. Clearly heard after Bond kills the henchman in the swamp. But Barry took that melody and made it what it was.

[marktmurphy]

In my opinion, Norman wrote the bit we know as the guitar riff- y'know: dun-de-de-de dun dun dun, dun de-de-de dun dun dun etc. whereas Barry took that, played it on a guitar (I think Norman had arranged it on a trumpet), added the four note vamp that plays under the whole theme and also added the whole bebop jazz section to the tune: the whole 'da da da daaa da da da, de diddle eeh, do doo doooh!', plus the fanfare etc. I see no evidence of any of these in Norman's soundtrack for Dr No. This is obviously just my personal opinion (or guess even)- I wouldn't state this to be true for certain and I have no greater knowledge.

So for me I think Barry probably wrote the majority of it, however the Norman tune was the essential tune around which the rest of it is built- the bebop section is of course closely related to the riff. So I don't think it's wrong to say that Norman is the author of the James Bond theme but that Barry's input probably went a bit beyond simply rearranging it.

[Professor Dent]

Unless you want to get sued, you don't ask this sort of questions.

Everybody knows Monty Norman wrote the whole of the James Bond Theme - even the parts he didn't write.

[Righty007]

Unless you want to get sued, you don't ask this sort of questions.

Everybody knows Monty Norman wrote the whole of the James Bond Theme - even the parts he didn't write.

The Cat is right. Monty Norman has won two libel lawsuits against publishers for claiming that Barry was the composer of the song.

Therefore I will not answer this topic's question.

[marktmurphy]

Unless you want to get sued, you don't ask this sort of questions.

Everybody knows Monty Norman wrote the whole of the James Bond Theme - even the parts he didn't write.

The Cat is right. Monty Norman has won two libel lawsuits against publishers for claiming that Barry was the composer of the song.

Therefore I will not answer this topic's question.

Yeah definitely; and those both agree with the assertion that Norman is the originator of the Bond theme, and I do too: it's a fact. I think it's a bit of a shame that Barry doesn't get a bit more credit for the part he played in the tune's success, though.

[Mr_Wint]

The melody was clearly Norman's. There are snatches of it in Norman's incidental music.

Burt Rhodes was the orchestrator and he added some of his own music as well as tunes from John Barry's Bond theme. Norman's music simply didn't fit.

Monty Norman has won two libel lawsuits against publishers for claiming that Barry was the composer of the song.

None of the courts have been entirely focused on "Who wrote the Bond theme". It was more complicated than that. Even if Sunday Times could show that a large part of the theme was written by Barry, they couldn't prove that Norman was an "insignificant and unknown musician". Norman has always interpreted the outcome as it was finally, once and for all, proved that he was the main creator of the Bond theme. That is not true.

My own private belief is that Barry wrote at least 90% of the theme and that track 17 on the 'Dr No' soundtrack actually is Norman's original version. Is this true? I have no idea. But fans interested in this topic should critically review all facts and make up their own mind.

[Mr. Blofeld]

The melody was clearly Norman's. There are snatches of it in Norman's incidental music.

Burt Rhodes was the orchestrator and he added some of his own music as well as tunes from John Barry's Bond theme. Norman's music simply didn't fit.

As much as I disagree with you on other topics, Wint, I think you're in the right, here.

The riff, or a rudimentary version of it, was clearly Monty Norman's baby, but the rest was John Barry; there's no question that the piece bears his influence, libel case or no libel case.

[coco1997]

Good point, Matt. Even if Norman created the theme, Barry perfected it and arranged its best, most memorable variations.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Good point, Matt. Even if Norman created the theme, Barry perfected it and arranged its best, most memorable variations.

Indeed; thanks, Dave.

[The Cat]

My own private belief is that Barry wrote at least 90% of the theme and that track 17 on the 'Dr No' soundtrack actually is Norman's original version. Is this true? I have no idea. But fans interested in this topic should critically review all facts and make up their own mind.

No it's not true. The United Artists LP was compiled without the involvement of Monty Norman, which means none of the sequencing or the track titles have much to do with the movie. Track 17 was just another recording of the Dr. No's Fantasy music which the label's anonymous producer dubbed the James Bond Theme. But it's nothing what Norman proposed - he proposed the theme as you hear it in the score.

[Mr. Blofeld]

But it's nothing what Norman proposed - he proposed the theme as you hear it in the score.

Which is just "dah dah-dah-dah dah, dah dah dah dum dah-dah-dah-dah-dah, dah dah dah dah-dum"; the last part of the riff, or even the rest of the theme, is missing entirely.

Also, considering that the score was further orchestrated by Burt Rhodes and conducted by Eric Rodgers, there's an even-further degree away from Norman's original theme to the finished score, resulting in old Monty making a very good living off a tenuous link to a film series theme.

[Jim]

Whatever anyone's doubtlessly brilliantly perceptive reckon, it would be safer for this discussion to recognise the standing legal decision on the point.

If a copy of the judgment is available, that might be an interesting read, admittedly.

[marktmurphy]

If a copy of the judgment is available, that might be an interesting read, admittedly.

I have seen it on the net before actually. It's pretty dry and a long read but quite interesting in places; especially to see the theme dissected into its constituent parts.

I think this is it: http://www.jollinger...rry/lawsuit.htm

[Zorin Industries]

The melody was clearly Norman's. There are snatches of it in Norman's incidental music. Clearly heard after Bond kills the henchman in the swamp. But Barry took that melody and made it what it was.

It was also used by Norman in a musical he was penning at the time.

[Wade]

To me, Monty Norman has always seemed like Kevin McClory's twin brother. Both of them gripe throughout their lives about that one piece they worked on, merely to grab some of the Bond money. Whether they deserve it or not, look at their output afterward. What else is Monty Norman known for beside the Bond theme? What else is McClory known for, except as producer of two Bond films, both of which were based on the same plot. What else did either of them do except chase after Bond money?

Whereas Barry went on to write dozens of classic soundtracks. And Broccoli, McClory's nemesis, built a brand name, an industry and a new film genre.

Judge people by what they do, rather than what they claim.

[Zorin Industries]

To me, Monty Norman has always seemed like Kevin McClory's twin brother. Both of them gripe throughout their lives about that one piece they worked on, merely to grab some of the Bond money. Whether they deserve it or not, look at their output afterward. What else is Monty Norman known for beside the Bond theme? What else is McClory known for, except as producer of two Bond films, both of which were based on the same plot. What else did either of them do except chase after Bond money?

Whereas Barry went on to write dozens of classic soundtracks. And Broccoli, McClory's nemesis, built a brand name, an industry and a new film genre.

Judge people by what they do, rather than what they claim.

I sort of agree with this line of thought.

And - whilst I am no expert on matters McClory...to say he "produced" (i.e. did the hard work) on THUNDERBALL and NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is questionable. And to keep trying to remake NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is in itself desperate too.

It's what I call the Creme Brulee Principle (that is one for fans of THE LEAGUE OF GENTLEMAN TV series).

[Royal Dalton]

Depends on your definition of a producer, of course. But I'd say Thunderball is definitely more McClory's gig than it was Saltzman and Broccoli's.

As for the James Bond Theme, I think it's exactly what it says on the tin: Music by Norman. Arrangement by Barry.

[marktmurphy]

As for the James Bond Theme, I think it's exactly what it says on the tin: Music by Norman. Arrangement by Barry.

All of it, though? Doesn't it seem a bit odd that nothing apart from the riff appears in the Dr No soundtrack? Plus the bebop section is quite jazzy in nature -related though it of course is to the riff- which was pretty much Barry's trade. And the vamp was something Barry had used before in other compositions.
I get the feeling that although Norman did undoubtedly pen the Bond theme riff and originate the whole theme that Barry added more to it than just arrangement. That's obviously not something I'd state as fact, just a feeling.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

All of it, though? Doesn't it seem a bit odd that nothing apart from the riff appears in the Dr No soundtrack? Plus the bebop section is quite jazzy in nature -related though it of course is to the riff- which was pretty much Barry's trade. And the vamp was something Barry had used before in other compositions.
I get the feeling that although Norman did undoubtedly pen the Bond theme riff and originate the whole theme that Barry added more to it than just arrangement. That's obviously not something I'd state as fact, just a feeling.

That's my feeling as well.

[The Cat]

As for the James Bond Theme, I think it's exactly what it says on the tin: Music by Norman. Arrangement by Barry.

All of it, though?

I'm very specific with my wording, hard as it may be to decode. Also, you have to understand that there are at least two different definitions of what the James Bond Theme means. And that's where fat paychecks are...

[Mister Asterix]

To me, Monty Norman has always seemed like Kevin McClory's twin brother. Both of them gripe throughout their lives about that one piece they worked on, merely to grab some of the Bond money. Whether they deserve it or not, look at their output afterward. What else is Monty Norman known for beside the Bond theme? What else is McClory known for, except as producer of two Bond films, both of which were based on the same plot. What else did either of them do except chase after Bond money?

Whereas Barry went on to write dozens of classic soundtracks. And Broccoli, McClory's nemesis, built a brand name, an industry and a new film genre.

Judge people by what they do, rather than what they claim.

Come on. Norman is not fighting for ‘The Bond Money’. He already gets his share. He’s never sued for his fare pay, because he already gets it. Norman is credited for writing ‘The Bond Theme’ and he is paid for it when it is used. All Norman has done is struck back against those who’ve said he didn’t write the theme. I don’t care how much Barry changed; it is still Norman’s song and he deserves credit. Norman has said this. Barry has said this. You could perhaps say Barry made it great. Sure, you could also say Whitney Houston made ‘I Will Always Love You’ great, but Dolly Parton still wrote it.

And so what if Barry went on to do dozens of great scores, that has no relevance. Look, if you had done just one really great thing in your life wouldn’t you fight for it remain acknowledged that you did. That’s all Norman is doing. Give the man his credit. It certainly does not hurt Barry one bit to not have this one item on his CV.

[marktmurphy]

As for the James Bond Theme, I think it's exactly what it says on the tin: Music by Norman. Arrangement by Barry.

All of it, though?

I'm very specific with my wording, hard as it may be to decode. Also, you have to understand that there are at least two different definitions of what the James Bond Theme means. And that's where fat paychecks are...

Sorry Cat; no longer interested in trying to work out your cryptic posts.

Come on. Norman is not fighting for ‘The Bond Money’. He already gets his share. He’s never sued for his fare pay, because he already gets it. Norman is credited for writing ‘The Bond Theme’ and he is paid for it when it is used. All Norman has done is struck back against those who’ve said he didn’t write the theme. I don’t care how much Barry changed; it is still Norman’s song and he deserves credit. Norman has said this. Barry has said this. You could perhaps say Barry made it great. Sure, you could also say Whitney Houston made ‘I Will Always Love You’ great, but Dolly Parton still wrote it.

Houston just sung a Parton song; the issue here is that there seems to be an idea that people have that the Bond theme was more than just written by one person and played by another.

And so what if Barry went on to do dozens of great scores, that has no relevance. Look, if you had done just one really great thing in your life wouldn’t you fight for it remain acknowledged that you did. That’s all Norman is doing. Give the man his credit. It certainly does not hurt Barry one bit to not have this one item on his CV.

I'm curious as to why Barry turned up to court to try and fight his side if he was so accepting of the situation.

[Royal Dalton]

As for the James Bond Theme, I think it's exactly what it says on the tin: Music by Norman. Arrangement by Barry.

All of it, though? Doesn't it seem a bit odd that nothing apart from the riff appears in the Dr No soundtrack? Plus the bebop section is quite jazzy in nature -related though it of course is to the riff- which was pretty much Barry's trade. And the vamp was something Barry had used before in other compositions.
I get the feeling that although Norman did undoubtedly pen the Bond theme riff and originate the whole theme that Barry added more to it than just arrangement. That's obviously not something I'd state as fact, just a feeling.

It seems to me that pretty much every part of the James Bond Theme is based around that "I-I was bo-orn" ditty. Even the jazzed up bits.

Barry's arrangement of it was obviously substantial, though, and was the key to the theme's success.

[Mister Asterix]

I'm curious as to why Barry turned up to court to try and fight his side if he was so accepting of the situation.

Subpoena.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

I'm curious as to why Barry turned up to court to try and fight his side if he was so accepting of the situation.

For what its worth I think I am right in saying that Barry's interview/comments in Mojo Magazine had something to do with The Sunday Times litigation in 2000.

[jaguar007]

If I recall correctly,Normans original theme have lyrics to it and is called "Bad Sign, Good Sign" An excerpt from the song can be heard at montenorman.com