117 replies to this topic

[Mr. Blofeld]

I think I've let this thread sit long enough; what do all you nightbirds out there think?

To start again, this is why we're all here:

This is a link to Monty Norman's website, featuring a CD of his latest output (which, surprisingly enough, is nowhere near as sophisticated as any of John Barry's later works):

http://www.montynorm...sic/music01.asp

This is Poor Me, by Adam Faith and the John Barry Seven, featuring an opening very similar to Barry's recording of the James Bond theme (also, note the mention of Buddy Holly in the text at the beginning; that'll become important later):

This is Beat Girl, by the John Barry Seven; notice how the electric guitar dominates this piece, and how the horns supplement (but are not equal partners with the guitar) on the track, unlike the Bond theme:

This is Hit and Miss, a popular piece by the John Barry Seven that is is nearly the same key as the James Bond theme:

This is Misirlou, an ethnic-sounding piece by Dick Dale and the Deltones; it came out earlier in 1962, and may have influenced Barry on the Bond theme, as, in this tune, the horns (like in the theme) come out quite strongly, as an equal partner, for the second half of the tune:

Now, this is where we get back to Buddy Holly: In the Poor Me! video, it is mentioned that Barry's early music with the Seven was influenced by American musician Buddy Holly; I can hear clear similarities, especially in the string-filled transitions, between one of Holly's best works, True Love Ways, and the title song for You Only Live Twice:

I seriously doubt that Norman had any such influences to draw upon, nor that he would have expanded upon them and developed musically to such a wonderful degree within five short years...

In conclusion, we Bond music lovers are quite lucky we got Barry instead of Norman, especially as it's Barry, not Norman, who dominates the theme.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Since a lot of people appear to be up and posting, UP this goes, again...

[The Shark]

I think I've let this thread sit long enough; what do all you nightbirds out there think?

To start again, this is why we're all here:

This is a link to Monty Norman's website, featuring a CD of his latest output (which, surprisingly enough, is nowhere near as sophisticated as any of John Barry's later works):

http://www.montynorm...sic/music01.asp

This is Poor Me, by Adam Faith and the John Barry Seven, featuring an opening very similar to Barry's recording of the James Bond theme (also, note the mention of Buddy Holly in the text at the beginning; that'll become important later):

This is Beat Girl, by the John Barry Seven; notice how the electric guitar dominates this piece, and how the horns supplement (but are not equal partners with the guitar) on the track, unlike the Bond theme:

This is Hit and Miss, a popular piece by the John Barry Seven that is is nearly the same key as the James Bond theme:

This is Misirlou, an ethnic-sounding piece by Dick Dale and the Deltones; it came out earlier in 1962, and may have influenced Barry on the Bond theme, as, in this tune, the horns (like in the theme) come out quite strongly, as an equal partner, for the second half of the tune:

Now, this is where we get back to Buddy Holly: In the Poor Me! video, it is mentioned that Barry's early music with the Seven was influenced by American musician Buddy Holly; I can hear clear similarities, especially in the string-filled transitions, between one of Holly's best works, True Love Ways, and the title song for You Only Live Twice:

I seriously doubt that Norman had any such influences to draw upon, nor that he would have expanded upon them and developed musically to such a wonderful degree within five short years...

In conclusion, we Bond music lovers are quite lucky we got Barry instead of Norman, especially as it's Barry, not Norman, who dominates the theme.

Well thought out post. Though I'd disagree on the True Love Ways/You Only Live Twice comparison, I'd say it sounds more like Armstrong's "WHATTITW", but still your point still stands, whether true, legally or factually or not.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Well thought out post. Though I'd disagree on the True Love Ways/You Only Live Twice comparison, I'd say it sounds more like Armstrong's "WHATTITW", but still your point still stands, whether true, legally or factually or not.

You actually make a good point in bringing up "We Have All the Time in the World", but it's the YOLT title song that immediately struck me as being similar; the chord progression is very close, especially in the middle section (for "True Love Ways", it's from "Thoughout the days..." on; for "You Only Live Twice", it's from "And love is a stranger" on) of each song.

True, the themes of "We Have All the Time in the World" and "True Love Ways" are very similar, but musically, to me, as well as chronologically, it's closer to the YOLT title song.

[dee-bee-five]

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

No one here has heard the original tune, so it is hard to comment on it. If we could compare Normans original composition with Barry's version then there wouldn't be a discussion about this.

To misquote Bond in DAF, I was referring to the original Norman composition on which the James Bond theme is based, which many of us have heard.

The song "Bad sign, good sign" is not enough to give Norman a full writing credit. Even if this song sounded like he claims (doubtful) it is still not even close. However, Norman claims that he wrote the entire JB-theme to 100%, decided that Barry should arrange it and selected the electric guitar for the riff. We all know that the two latter are bull[censored].

Do we? Some people are making some extraordinary assertions on here without, it seems, any evidence to back them up. The fact that the credit for the James Bond Theme is, and always was "written by Monty Norman, arranged by John Barry" seems utterly beyond the grasp of some fans. I don't know who wrote what or made the the tea in the recording studio that day, but since that has been the credit established since 1962, it seems rather silly to keep raking over these long cold ashes.

Besides, the matter was settled in court. Fans can piss in the wind as much as they like about the outcome - as I could about the outcome of McClory's case against Fleming if I were inclined - but it won't change anything one jot.

[marktmurphy]

Do we? Some people are making some extraordinary assertions on here without, it seems, any evidence to back them up.

Read the thread, or the report on the court case. Fact is, from many peoples' point of view there's a feeling that Norman perhaps wrote the keystone to the melody in the form of the riff, whereas the other elements have more of a Barry signature about them.
There's doubt there: if you had written such a great piece as the Bond theme wouldn't you have included more than just one section of it in the score to the film you've written it for? It's not enough to be certain about and I would never say for certain that it's wrong to call Norman the sole writer of the theme, but it's a complicated origin.

The fact that the credit for the James Bond Theme is, and always was "written by Monty Norman, arranged by John Barry" seems utterly beyond the grasp of some fans.

That depends if you always unquestioningly accept what's given to you or whether you have the ability to think for yourself.
Yes, he undeniably originated it. Is there more to it than that? We've been given reason to think that there might be, including John Barry at times saying that he did write it (statements he's since retracted- it's up to you to consider if that's purely down to his own sense of right and wrong).
Yes, that is the correct credit for the version of the Bond theme we know and I don't think anyone would like to say as fact that's it's wrong, but even the definition of 'arranged' in that sentence doesn't seem to be entirely clear and the two men apparently disagree themselves.

I don't know who wrote what or made the the tea in the recording studio that day, but since that has been the credit established since 1962, it seems rather silly to keep raking over these long cold ashes.

It's a bloody Bond forum. There are still people talking about films made nearly 50 years ago on here. It's what happens here.

Besides, the matter was settled in court. Fans can piss in the wind as much as they like about the outcome - as I could about the outcome of McClory's case against Fleming if I were inclined - but it won't change anything one jot.

I think you've completely misunderstood the point of this site: it isn't here to try and throw out legal judgements: we're just a bunch of fans having a chat based around our own personal opinions. What did you think we were trying to do?

[The Shark]

Fans can piss in the wind as much as they like about the outcome

That's why most threads here exist and thrive. Though if you're going to have a hissy fit about it you should prepare to get pissed on yourself.

Edited by The Shark, 24 September 2009 - 09:21 PM.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Hey, dee-bee-five, the whole point of this thread was to see who fans thought contributed more; the overwhelming evidence of Barry relying on past influences to compose the theme (as well as to grow enormously in talent as a composer) was something that accumulated during the course of the thread -- nothing more.

[FlemingBond]

I've never had any doubt that Barry contributed as much or more to the piece than Norman. After hearing those pieces, i'm even more certain. I'll give Norman credit for the melody, but the final piece, the "James Bond theme" wouldn't have been the smash that it was if it was done by him alone.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I've never had any doubt that Barry contributed as much or more to the piece than Norman. After hearing those pieces, I'm even more certain. I'll give Norman credit for the melody, but the final piece, the "James Bond theme", wouldn't have been the smash that it was if it was done by him alone.

I agree, and I find it ironic that, by culling bits and pieces from influences and past hit tunes, John Barry fulfilled a contract, but also made Monty Norman a multimillionaire for the rest of his life as part of a process he did not contribute to.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Also, note that the rest of the Bond theme appears nowhere in the actual score composed by Monty Norman and orchestrated by Burt Rhodes; it's just "da-dee-dee-dum-dah", and the only occurrences of the whole theme in Dr. No are wherever Peter Hunt tracked the John Barry recording in.

Something significant about this, methinks...

[Hotwinds]

I think that sums it up the best as well. On the Dr. No DVD extras, Norman says that when he heard the final version he was "knocked out" by what Barry did to it. So there you go.
As a side note, Saltzman wanted Underneath The Mango Tree for the title theme and Norman said that would be a bad idea and Young said the same.

Good point, Matt. Even if Norman created the theme, Barry perfected it and arranged its best, most memorable variations.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I think that sums it up the best as well. On the Dr. No DVD extras, Norman says that when he heard the final version he was "knocked out" by what Barry did to it. So there you go.

As a side note, Saltzman wanted "Underneath the Mango Tree" for the title theme and Norman said that would be a bad idea and Young said the same.

I thought it was Norman who initially pushed for "Underneath the Mango Tree" as the title theme? It's always the case, though, that Saltzman gets blamed for all the bad decisions by the Bond producers, isn't it? A bit unfair, really...

[The Shark]

I think that sums it up the best as well. On the Dr. No DVD extras, Norman says that when he heard the final version he was "knocked out" by what Barry did to it. So there you go.

As a side note, Saltzman wanted "Underneath the Mango Tree" for the title theme and Norman said that would be a bad idea and Young said the same.

I thought it was Norman who initially pushed for "Underneath the Mango Tree" as the title theme? It's always the case, though, that Saltzman gets blamed for all the bad decisions by the Bond producers, isn't it? A bit unfair, really...

It's been said before but I'll say it again. Saltzman was responsible for a lot of bad decisions as well as a lot of good ones, stuff like the concept of "killing off 007 in the pre-titles sequence" was his as well as less suitable pitches such as the one you mentioned.
Despite that, in my opinion when he left the Bond family something died, Cubby unfortunately took most of the exaltation on behalf of the success of the franchise.

[BryanHerbert]

First of all Neither Monty Norman or John Barry wrote the bond theme. There is a song called Surrender By elvis that was released 1 year before Dr.No's released. Monty or john barry heard the theme and talked to elvis about using the theme in Dr.No but it was revised by Norman and or Barry to fit the movie. check it out on youtube. Type in: Surrender by Elvis Presely if you dont't believe me!!!! A lot of people think that norman or barry created the bond theme, but thats not true, i have done a lot of research and i have tons of evidence to prove my theory, no wait, to prove that it is true.



Here's the link to the video proving it. listen to it.

[The Shark]

It doesn't prove much, either way it's a good find. All it tells you is that the 3 note chromatic vamp of the Bond theme, revolving around a perfect fifth, a minor sixth and a major sixth (B, C, Db), going around back and forth in a cyclic motion around the tonic - usually E minor - was a prevalent technique in cool jazz from the late 50s and early 60s.

Like Blofeld accounted, Adam Faith and the John Barry's Seven also used this, so it doesn't provide much to the table that Barry or even Monty Norman didn't compose the theme.

The Shark.

[BryanHerbert]

There is a documentary about it in one of the james bond speical editions movie. I dont remember which one. Monty norman and john barry and elvis had a sitdown and talk about it. the reason why its different in the movies its because that monty norman and barry didnt find it able to quite work right so that added guitar and change it around a bit. I no it sounds like a load of bull[censored] but im a true bond fan and i would lie about sumthing like this. John barry and norman wrote a revision of what Elvis had done. So technically they wrote it but elvis had the song written.

[Mr. Blofeld]

There is a documentary about it in one of the james bond speical editions movie. I dont remember which one. Monty norman and john barry and elvis had a sitdown and talk about it. the reason why its different in the movies its because that monty norman and barry didnt find it able to quite work right so that added guitar and change it around a bit. I no it sounds like a load of bull[censored] but im a true bond fan and i would lie about sumthing like this. John barry and norman wrote a revision of what Elvis had done. So technically they wrote it but elvis had the song written.

There's no such documentary; you probably just had a weird dream involving Elvis and John Barry, because they never worked together.

To demonstrate my purpose, here's the Daniel Craig gunbarrel with the respective contributions from earlier songs; guess which part sounds closer to the actual theme?

Also, I think I've found what may be the origin of the fanfare portion of the James Bond theme; it's from Glenn Miller's hit "String of Pearls":

What do you think?

[BryanHerbert]

i never said they worked together. Its not a dream. i know the truth sometimes doesnt feel like the truth, but im not a moron and i know . i do my research just as much as the next guy. the theme u portrayed in that video was released after dr.no 1962. the theme that i posted came out in 1961 year before Dr.no's release. Well i've seen the documentary on my Dvd Special edition. It was made into a big controversial issue so john Barry and Monty Norman didnt tell people about it.

[Mr. Blofeld]

i never said they worked together. Its not a dream. i know the truth sometimes doesnt feel like the truth, but im not a moron and i know . i do my research just as much as the next guy. the theme u portrayed in that video was released after dr.no 1962. the theme that i posted came out in 1961 year before Dr.no's release. Well i've seen the documentary on my Dvd Special edition. It was made into a big controversial issue so john Barry and Monty Norman didnt tell people about it.

What theme? You didn't post any theme; just some stuff about a documentary on the Special Edition that isn't there (and I know, because all the docus on the SE were transferred over to the UE, and none of them mention Elvis).

The "theme" I portrayed was a cut-up of "Poor Me" from 1960 and "Good Sign/Bad Sign", undated, presumably late-'50s, early-'60s; if you're referring to "String of Pearls", then you're waaay off, because that song came out during the '40s!

Think, Bry, think! (Also, spell-check is your friend. )

[BryanHerbert]

Do you not listen to anything i say? They met personally; basically they had a meeting. Before bond became a franchise they didn't really care if people knew where it came from because none of the bond movies existed yet. It was said in an article i read and was written by one of the producers i believe Ian Fleming. Plus i know for a fact. Good sign and bad sign are new check Monty Norman's new album call Completing the Circle. Secondly i don't appreciate you saying spell check it my friend. I'm pretty sure everything was spell correctly. No need to act like an immature 5 year old. what I was talking about was not put in the documentary. Monty Norman Wrote the note-sheet or AKA tabs.Elvis made a song not knowing that would happen later on. Elvis had made a new song for his album and Monty Norman and john Barry liked it. Monty Norman was like hey that's jazzy.So thus the bond theme was born. Monty change stuff around like adding the guitar and other small things such as the trumpets because bond its from the UK. and trumpets are played in the Navy and gave the theme more style. so Monty basically wrote his own version using Elvis song "Surrender" as a lift point.

[BryanHerbert]

Here's a link that someone else actually believe me. No i don't this person. i just came across it like 2 minutes ago. i know its still now enough evidence for you but i don't really care.

[The Shark]

I'm pretty sure everything was spell correctly.

We'll let you no.

[BryanHerbert]

What in the word are you referring to about you'll let me know? about my spelling? i don't need an English lesson from you OK.

[BryanHerbert]

Well i could be wrong and i could be right. i don't want to make you think about bond differently. So I'll think what i want, and u think what you want.

[Mark_Hazard]

Seems to me to be stating the obvious, but why would anyone discuss a tune with the singer rather than the composer(s). According to the album ELV1S "Surrender" is credited to (yes I know that means bugger all) Pomus/Shuman - with a note in the booklet:

surrender -Another rewrite from the Italian, another Neopolitan ballad, this time "Torna a Sorriento," which had previously been recorded by, amongst others, one of Elvis' earliest musical heroes, Dean Martin.

I assume that the Pomus/Shuman credit means tha they put the English words/translation(?) to the tune and would also assume that the original composers name has been lost in the mists of time - but maybe I'm wrong.

[BryanHerbert]

That is what happened basically. The Composer's name was lost in the mist of everything that was changing. The first bond movie was coming out, they need to think of music, the location and the cast, and other movies things to deal with so they really didn't credit it. I could be wrong too. Technically you never where music can come from and when you see that it is created by someone it kind of sticks with you, But There could be a lot of factors the could of been used to develop the theme, I personally wasn't there Lol why would i be Haha.

Edited by BryanHerbert, 07 October 2009 - 04:36 AM.

[Mr. Blofeld]

One problem: This is the original "Torna a Surriento":

Notice how it sounds absolutely nothing like the Bond theme?

Also, Elvis's "Surrender", in case you didn't look, was released in 1961... the year after Adam Faith's song "Poor Me" came out. Your timeline's a little screwed up, Bryan.

(P.S.: Would somebody please give "String of Pearls" a listen? I've introduced it to the conversation, but it's been languishing in obscurity, so far...)

[BryanHerbert]

I didn't post that that video link. i don't even know what the point of that video was. Elvis song Surrender was also released in 1961.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I didn't post that that video link. i don't even know what the point of that video was. Elvis song Surrender was also released in 1961.

I know; did you miss my point? "Poor Me" came out in 1960, the year before Elvis's "Surrender"; the video I posted is the original Italian tune that inspired "Surrender", "Torna a Surriento", and it doesn't sound anything like the Bond theme.

Notice how I had to repeat my point? "Do pay attention, 007!"