117 replies to this topic

[marktmurphy]

It seems to me that pretty much every part of the James Bond Theme is based around that "I-I was bo-orn" ditty. Even the jazzed up bits.

Oh yeah I'd agree there and I wouldn't disagree with his status as the originator of the Bond theme: he clearly did that. I'm just not sure; if I drew a portrait of a woman and then you came along and painted over my portrait in oils and added in a whole room around her, am I still the sole artist? I'm not saying that's what definitely happened here but it's an interesting point to consider.
It's right that he's credited as the writer but it's a shame that there's no additional credit for Barry's work on it -which even if it was just pure arranging- clearly added hugely to the tune's success.

Although of course David Arnold did quote the original Norman arrangement in Die Another Day and it held up very well.

[marktmurphy]

I'm curious as to why Barry turned up to court to try and fight his side if he was so accepting of the situation.

Subpoena.

Yes, but then Barry was living in the States at the time; as was Peter Hunt who declined to come over for the hearing.

[Mr_Wint]

The melody was clearly Norman's. There are snatches of it in Norman's incidental music. Clearly heard after Bond kills the henchman in the swamp. But Barry took that melody and made it what it was.

It was also used by Norman in a musical he was penning at the time.

That is what Norman claims, but he can not prove it. The song "Bad Sign, Good Sign" was never officially released before or after Dr No (at least not after 43 years).

Barry claims that he could only use an extremely small part of Normans work for the guitar riff ("Nothing leapt off the page as the piece had no excitement"). It was reworked completely by Barry and the beat was taken from his previous arrangements, which are still easy to find. And Barry claims that the bebop part later on all came from him. It is Norman's word against Barry's word.

I don’t care how much Barry changed; it is still Norman’s song and he deserves credit. Norman has said this. Barry has said this. You could perhaps say Barry made it great. Sure, you could also say Whitney Houston made ‘I Will Always Love You’ great, but Dolly Parton still wrote it.

Barry did much more than just arrange the theme so he deserves a writing credit. Your comparison with 'I Will Always Love You' is stupid because it is written by Dolly Parton and she got a credit for it. Whitney Houston did a cover on the song.

And so what if Barry went on to do dozens of great scores, that has no relevance. Look, if you had done just one really great thing in your life wouldn’t you fight for it remain acknowledged that you did. That’s all Norman is doing. Give the man his credit. It certainly does not hurt Barry one bit to not have this one item on his CV.

The JB-theme is one of the most famous movie themes in the world. It is more nice to give the right person credit for this. Barry's work after Dr No is quite relevant. Norman claims that he wrote the whole theme AND decided that Barry should arrange it. He also claims that the electric guitar was his decision! Now, if Norman had enough talant to create something like this... why didn't we get more like this from him? The rest of his musical work is not even close to this level. However, it seems like the JB-theme fits perfectly into Barry's work. Compare with his previous work at that time ('Bee's Knees', 'Poor Me', 'Black Stockings', 'Beat Girl') and it all makes sense.

In case someone misunderstood what I just said: "The James Bond Theme" written by Monty Norman.

[marktmurphy]

http://www.jollinger...rry/lawsuit.htm

It's interesting to see that the John Barry Seven Bond theme was recorded four days before the score to Dr No was recorded, and the defence claimed that Barry's version of 'Good Sign, Bad Sign' had been worked into the score as we hear it. I never realised that they tried to claim that ownership on the Bond theme riff to that extent. Tricky stuff: obviously I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment.

The problem that you deal with here is that it all happened a long time ago and the memories of those involved are perhaps not at their sharpest.
Monty Norman's certainly doing well off it judging by the figures in that report though! And rightfully so, I'd say.

[Mister Asterix]

I don’t care how much Barry changed; it is still Norman’s song and he deserves credit. Norman has said this. Barry has said this. You could perhaps say Barry made it great. Sure, you could also say Whitney Houston made ‘I Will Always Love You’ great, but Dolly Parton still wrote it.

Barry did much more than just arrange the theme so he deserves a writing credit. Your comparison with 'I Will Always Love You' is stupid because it is written by Dolly Parton and she got a credit for it. Whitney Houston did a cover on the song.

Right. And Barry covered ‘The James Bond Theme’ and Jimi Hendrix covered ‘The Star Spangled Banner’.

[Jim]

At least it wasn't Barry Norman.

[marktmurphy]

I don’t care how much Barry changed; it is still Norman’s song and he deserves credit. Norman has said this. Barry has said this. You could perhaps say Barry made it great. Sure, you could also say Whitney Houston made ‘I Will Always Love You’ great, but Dolly Parton still wrote it.

Barry did much more than just arrange the theme so he deserves a writing credit. Your comparison with 'I Will Always Love You' is stupid because it is written by Dolly Parton and she got a credit for it. Whitney Houston did a cover on the song.

Right. And Barry covered ‘The James Bond Theme’ and Jimi Hendrix covered ‘The Star Spangled Banner’.

But neither Houston or Hendrix added substantial sections to the song which outweigh the original components. That's the argument here- the apparent possibility that the sketch of the Bond riff was built on substantially.

And besides, if someone repeats Hendrix's version of Star Spangled then Hendrix will always get a mention. Barry doesn't get name checked when the Bond theme is played: no-one even really knows what the Norman version of the Bond theme sounds like.

At least it wasn't Barry Norman.

Yes, I've been struggling with that thought every time I see the name of this thread in the list.

[The Cat]

It's right that he's credited as the writer but it's a shame that there's no additional credit for Barry's work on it -which even if it was just pure arranging- clearly added hugely to the tune's success.

Here's one more cryptic message - to understand why this happened, check out a little movie called "Call Me Bwana." The fact that a crucial part of the mythology is hidden inside a non-Bond film is one of the reasons so many guesses are made.

[Mr. Blofeld]

It's right that he's credited as the writer but it's a shame that there's no additional credit for Barry's work on it -- which even if it was just pure arranging -- clearly added hugely to the tune's success.

Here's one more cryptic message -- to understand why this happened, check out a little movie called "Call Me Bwana." The fact that a crucial part of the mythology is hidden inside a non-Bond film is one of the reasons so many guesses are made.

From Wikipedia:

The film was scored by Monty Norman. John Barry claimed that Norman contacted him to orchestrate his theme, The Big Safari, for the film, but the film's orchestration was eventually credited to Muir Mathieson. Barry released a recording of The Big Safari, as well as the title song of another United Artists comedy, The Mouse on the Moon, under a pseudonym of "The Countdowns". Bob Hope sang the title song over the end credits.

[marktmurphy]

It's right that he's credited as the writer but it's a shame that there's no additional credit for Barry's work on it -which even if it was just pure arranging- clearly added hugely to the tune's success.

Here's one more cryptic message - to understand why this happened, check out a little movie called "Call Me Bwana." The fact that a crucial part of the mythology is hidden inside a non-Bond film is one of the reasons so many guesses are made.

That was covered in the court case.

And as I said: say what you're trying to say or don't bother saying anything. It's just irritating otherwise.

[dee-bee-five]

At least it wasn't Barry Norman.

The first thing I thought of when I saw this thread...

On a serious note, it was always understood, surely, that John Barry arranged the theme that Monty Norman wrote? I don't have my original Bond LPs with me, but the credit was "The James Bond Theme arranged and conducted by John Barry", as far as I can recall. To criticize Norman for asserting this in court, or to equate him with McClory, is grossly unfair in my view. If I were Monty Norman and the Sunday Times had suggested I didn't write the original melody, I'd have sued, too.

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

[Mr_Wint]

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

No one here has heard the original tune, so it is hard to comment on it. If we could compare Normans original composition with Barry's version then there wouldn't be a discussion about this.

[dee-bee-five]

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

No one here has heard the original tune, so it is hard to comment on it. If we could compare Normans original composition with Barry's version then there wouldn't be a discussion about this.

To misquote Bond in DAF, I was referring to the original Norman composition on which the James Bond theme is based, which many of us have heard.

[marktmurphy]

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

No one here has heard the original tune, so it is hard to comment on it. If we could compare Normans original composition with Barry's version then there wouldn't be a discussion about this.

To misquote Bond in DAF, I was referring to the original Norman composition on which the James Bond theme is based, which many of us have heard.

Well, I don't think there's a recording of it made before the Bond theme was recorded, is there?

[Aston V8]

Peter Hunt told me he brought Barry in because he thought Norman's score sounded like a British Mining Disaster Movie.

[photographer]

The root of Monty Normans "The James Bond theme" is the song "Bad sign, good sign", which has been written as first draft of a stage musical called "A house for Mr. Biswas" based on a best selling novel by Sir Vidiadhar Surajprasad Naipaul.

You are able to hear a sample from Monty Normans CD "Completing the circle" - "Bad sign good sign" - it sounds a bit like an indish Bond theme-version for Octopussy.

Monty Normans work for Harry Saltzman & Albert R. Broccoli didn't stop after "Dr. No" but after creating songs for their next movie "Call me Bwana" with Bob Hope. Saltzman wouldn't pay for the "Bwana"-songs. So Monty Norman cut off and left.

[marktmurphy]

You are able to hear a sample from Monty Normans CD "Completing the circle" - "Bad sign good sign" - it sounds a bit like an indish Bond theme-version for Octopussy.

There was a suggestion from the defence in the Sunday Times case though that the parts of the Bond theme that appeared in the Dr No soundtrack were rewritten to resemble Barry's version of it more closely. If you believe that and are of a suspicious mind then you could suspect that any recording made of the proto Bond theme after Barry's version (as that one you linked to is) may have been influenced by it. I get the feeling that that's too much of a stretch, but your mileage may vary.

[dee-bee-five]

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

No one here has heard the original tune, so it is hard to comment on it. If we could compare Normans original composition with Barry's version then there wouldn't be a discussion about this.

To misquote Bond in DAF, I was referring to the original Norman composition on which the James Bond theme is based, which many of us have heard.

Well, I don't think there's a recording of it made before the Bond theme was recorded, is there?

I mean the musical, A House for Mr. Biswas.

But the debate is academic. The matter was settled in court.

[marktmurphy]

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

No one here has heard the original tune, so it is hard to comment on it. If we could compare Normans original composition with Barry's version then there wouldn't be a discussion about this.

To misquote Bond in DAF, I was referring to the original Norman composition on which the James Bond theme is based, which many of us have heard.

Well, I don't think there's a recording of it made before the Bond theme was recorded, is there?

I mean the musical, A House for Mr. Biswas.

How did you hear a musical that was never finished?

But the debate is academic. The matter was settled in court.

Everything's debatable.

[Mr_Wint]

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

No one here has heard the original tune, so it is hard to comment on it. If we could compare Normans original composition with Barry's version then there wouldn't be a discussion about this.

To misquote Bond in DAF, I was referring to the original Norman composition on which the James Bond theme is based, which many of us have heard.

The song "Bad sign, good sign" is not enough to give Norman a full writing credit. Even if this song sounded like he claims (doubtful) it is still not even close. However, Norman claims that he wrote the entire JB-theme to 100%, decided that Barry should arrange it and selected the electric guitar for the riff. We all know that the two latter are bull[censored] so it is possible that the only thing Norman had is the song BSGS, which, most likely, didn't sound like the Bond theme at all. Not much left, is there?

If you believe that and are of a suspicious mind then you could suspect that any recording made of the proto Bond theme after Barry's version (as that one you linked to is) may have been influenced by it.

May have?

[Mr. Blofeld]

Of course, what one thinks of the original tune and what Barry transformed it into is an entirely different - and subjective - matter. I know what I think...

No one here has heard the original tune, so it is hard to comment on it. If we could compare Normans original composition with Barry's version then there wouldn't be a discussion about this.

To misquote Bond in DAF, I was referring to the original Norman composition on which the James Bond theme is based, which many of us have heard.

The song "Bad sign, good sign" is not enough to give Norman a full writing credit. Even if this song sounded like he claims (doubtful) it is still not even close. However, Norman claims that he wrote the entire JB-theme to 100%, decided that Barry should arrange it and selected the electric guitar for the riff. We all know that the two latter are bull[censored] so it is possible that the only thing Norman had is the song BSGS, which, most likely, didn't sound like the Bond theme at all. Not much left, is there?

Right; in fact, from the linked site on Norman's CD, it appears the tracks he has dedicated to the Bond theme are centered on the riff, and nothing else, and the track he's actually named "The James Bond Theme" sounds aesthetically nothing like any other extant version.

If you believe that and are of a suspicious mind then you could suspect that any recording made of the proto Bond theme after Barry's version (as that one you linked to is) may have been influenced by it.

May have?

I'm of the opinion that, because the John Barry Bond scores later in his career mostly revolve around the "duh-dah, DAH-dah, dum-dah-duh" portion of the theme, it's this segment, as well as the other non-riff parts, that Barry created himself.

[marktmurphy]

Right; in fact, from the linked site on Norman's CD, it appears the tracks he has dedicated to the Bond theme are centered on the riff, and nothing else, and the track he's actually named "The James Bond Theme" sounds aesthetically nothing like any other extant version.

So it doesn't. How bizarre. The vamp is there, but again; this is recorded after Barry's version. And apparently, according to that site, it was Monty's idea to do the theme with an electric guitar.

I'm of the opinion that, because the John Barry Bond scores later in his career mostly revolve around the "duh-dah, DAH-dah, dum-dah-duh" portion of the theme, it's this segment, as well as the other non-riff parts, that Barry created himself.

Oh I don't know- I don't see any particular bias towards any segment of the theme in Barry's stuff. He used the riff quite a bit.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Right; in fact, from the linked site on Norman's CD, it appears the tracks he has dedicated to the Bond theme are centered on the riff, and nothing else, and the track he's actually named "The James Bond Theme" sounds aesthetically nothing like any other extant version.

So it doesn't. How bizarre. The vamp is there, but again; this is recorded after Barry's version. And apparently, according to that site, it was Monty's idea to do the theme with an electric guitar.

That makes no sense; John Barry's style used the electric guitar heavily, and Norman's is more of the big-band, corny-lyrics type.

I'm of the opinion that, because the John Barry Bond scores later in his career mostly revolve around the "duh-dah, DAH-dah, dum-dah-duh" portion of the theme, it's this segment, as well as the other non-riff parts, that Barry created himself.

Oh, I don't know -- I don't see any particular bias towards any segment of the theme in Barry's stuff. He used the riff quite a bit.

Well, he seemed to love his orchestra when it came time to do the riff in every film; in fact, I doubt Monty Norman is even half the composer John Barry is, and so would have stunted the series' musical development had he stayed on for another film.

In hindsight, we're very lucky we got Barry.

[marktmurphy]

So it doesn't. How bizarre. The vamp is there, but again; this is recorded after Barry's version. And apparently, according to that site, it was Monty's idea to do the theme with an electric guitar.

That makes no sense; John Barry's style used the electric guitar heavily, and Norman's is more of the big-band, corny-lyrics type.

Yes, coming from Monty's own site that doesn't seem the most unbiased of accounts. Not impossible of course, just because a man likes a trumpet doesn't mean he's never heard an electric guitar, but even so...

[Mr_Wint]

Some examples (there are more) I could find on YouTube (Barry's work before Dr No):

The chords:
http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page
http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

The guitar:
http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

It makes sense that Barry borrowed a lot from his earlier work, because he had to write and arrange the whole theme in a few days.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Some examples (there are more) I could find on YouTube (Barry's work before Dr No):

The chords:
http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page
http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

The guitar:
http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

It makes sense that Barry borrowed a lot from his earlier work, because he had to write and arrange the whole theme in a few days.

You forgot Hit and Miss; the guitar there is in nearly the same key as the James Bond theme:

[Mr. Blofeld]

There's also the case of A Shot in the Dark, which seems to have been influenced by Barry's Bond theme:

[Mr. Blofeld]

Also, what are the odds that Barry and the Seven were influenced by this single, which had come out earlier in the year, when it came time to record the Bond theme?

[coco1997]

I'd say it's likely; surf-style guitar music was all the rage at the time. If you like this kind of music, check out The Mermen. They did an album devoted to Bond music and pulled it off pretty well.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I'd say it's likely; surf-style guitar music was all the rage at the time. If you like this kind of music, check out The Mermen. They did an album devoted to Bond music and pulled it off pretty well.

I've also heard reports that Barry's early compositions with the Seven were influenced by Buddy Holly; I can hear clear similarities, especially in the string-filled transitions, between one of Holly's best works, True Love Ways, and the title song for You Only Live Twice:

I seriously doubt Norman had any such influences to draw upon, nor that he would have expanded upon them and developed musically to such a wonderful degree within five short years...