4014 replies to this topic

[Orion]

Plastic cuffs (zip ties) are easily broken, it's in the movement (that Craig actually does) of raising your hands up then swiftly moving them down when the zip tie is pulled tight. All the force meets in the tiny plastic latch causing it to break. 

 

 

Illustrated guide for your enjoyment http://www.artofmanl...ustrated-guide/

[sharpshooter]

^ Thanks. Well, there we go. It can be done in real life and you don't need to be a superhero. It's all in the wrist. 

[SecretAgentFan]

I apologize then.

 

So... really no need for huge muscles after all? 

[sharpshooter]

Well, I think it's safe to say a consensus has been reached via the CBn poll. The majority of members want Craig back, but just for one more film. But we're not sure if he will.

[RMc2]

Plastic cuffs (zip ties) are easily broken, it's in the movement (that Craig actually does) of raising your hands up then swiftly moving them down when the zip tie is pulled tight. All the force meets in the tiny plastic latch causing it to break. 

 

 

Illustrated guide for your enjoyment http://www.artofmanl...ustrated-guide/

 

Well I'll be... that's shifted one more negative point to the positive side of Spectre's scale, for me. Thank you

[SecretAgentFan]

Well, I think it's safe to say a consensus has been reached via the CBn poll. The majority of members want Craig back, but just for one more film. But we're not sure if he will.

 

33 votes should convince him 

 

Interesting - as far as this poll can show - that most, however, only want him back for BOND 25. 

 

Maybe SPECTRE was considered an insufficient ending for his era by most of us?

[Odd Jobbies]

Plastic cuffs (zip ties) are easily broken, it's in the movement (that Craig actually does) of raising your hands up then swiftly moving them down when the zip tie is pulled tight. All the force meets in the tiny plastic latch causing it to break. 

 

 

Illustrated guide for your enjoyment http://www.artofmanl...ustrated-guide/

If it's apparently common knowledge that they can be broken, why would his captors use zip ties to restrain a highly trained secret agent?  Had they run out of metal cuffs that day? Or more likely the writer needed him in something he could escape easily from and to hell with common sense.

 

It poor writing whatever way you spin it.

[SecretAgentFan]

... and, of course, I have to ride to the rescue of the (too many) writers on SPECTRE again.

 

Because you can rest assured that this scene - like every scene - will have gotten comments from everybody involved, and since it is part of the constantly re-written climax it probably reached a point where someone said: hey, Bond just snaps the cuffs because he is strong, clever and we have to get moving him in the building anyway - would be daft if he takes out his guards and then cannot get the cuffs off, so... um... let´s do it this way.

 

And again - if Craig had considered this silly or weak he would have said: I won´t play it that way.  So...

[Odd Jobbies]

Indeed, filmmaking is a group effort and although it's poorly written there's opportunities for the principles in front of, as well as behind the camera to point it out down the line. Unless we know otherwise no one really gets off with such crimes against storytelling scot free.

[Orion]

Well to the informed (as a Royal Navy commander would count as) a traditional set of handcuffs is equally as easy to get out of (you just need something thin, stiff and flexible like the ink refill of a pen or, possibly quicker to hand given he's standing next to a car, a radio antenna on a car)

 

Also could you really say it's common knowledge when I'm the only contributor to this conversation who knew how to do it?

[tdalton]

I don't really see the handcuff scene as a problem, whether it is common knowledge that it's possible or not.  There are so many problems with Spectre that are much more substantial than that minor moment, and the film has pretty much gone completely off the rails by that point that it didn't even register as a potential issue.

 

Besides, I would expect that a highly-trained government agent would be able to figure out how to escape from that kind of a situation

[SecretAgentFan]

I still prefer Bond to have a real motivation to go inside the building - save Madeleine from Blofeld´s and Irma Bunt´s clutches, as it was written in the previous drafts - instead of letting himself be kidnapped and then only waiting to get to the building in order to get rid of Blofeld´s men so easily.

[Odd Jobbies]

Also could you really say it's common knowledge when I'm the only contributor to this conversation who knew how to do it?

Certainly not and that's the point - that's what makes it poor writing/filmmaking.  Stories are composed of many small stories - they need cause and effect - things to happen for a reason. Otherwise it's just something happening, chaos, not storytelling.

 

Breaking out of the zip ties is a story. It needs a beginning; a set up showing they can be broken out of (because, as you say, to the laymen they can't be broken out of so easily- it's not common knowledge). With some kind of set up, seeing Bond break out is the end of that story, rather than a 'cheat', which in filmmaking/storytelling terms is exactly what we got.

 

Either it's is 'common knowledge', making the villains idiots (which is also poor writing), or it's cheating - cheap, lazy writing/filmmaking.

[tdalton]

I still prefer Bond to have a real motivation to go inside the building - save Madeleine from Blofeld´s and Irma Bunt´s clutches, as it was written in the previous drafts - instead of letting himself be kidnapped and then only waiting to get to the building in order to get rid of Blofeld´s men so easily.

 

Oh, but I think that he did have motivation.  Surely off screen, Blofeld told him that he had set up a spectacular art gallery in the shooting full of portraits of familiar people that Bond would no doubt want to check out. 

 

Seriously, though, I agree.  I don't know what Logan had in mind for the ending of the film in his original drafts (may have been the same, but I can't recall), but based on what I've been told of the contents of his original draft(s) of the script, I think I would have much rather they gone with his ideas over those of P&W.  The end result may very well have still been a disaster of a film, but it would have been an interesting disaster, and I think I could get much more replay value out of something like that as opposed to the severely pedestrian film that Spectre​ ultimately ended up being.

[sharpshooter]

Bond was kidnapped to be led to the maze. If Bond didn't lash out and kill the goons, I imagine they would've led him to Blofeld behind the glass. And the film would've played out exactly the same.

[SecretAgentFan]

 

I still prefer Bond to have a real motivation to go inside the building - save Madeleine from Blofeld´s and Irma Bunt´s clutches, as it was written in the previous drafts - instead of letting himself be kidnapped and then only waiting to get to the building in order to get rid of Blofeld´s men so easily.

 

Oh, but I think that he did have motivation.  Surely off screen, Blofeld told him that he had set up a spectacular art gallery in the shooting full of portraits of familiar people that Bond would no doubt want to check out. 

 

Seriously, though, I agree.  I don't know what Logan had in mind for the ending of the film in his original drafts (may have been the same, but I can't recall), but based on what I've been told of the contents of his original draft(s) of the script, I think I would have much rather they gone with his ideas over those of P&W.  The end result may very well have still been a disaster of a film, but it would have been an interesting disaster, and I think I could get much more replay value out of something like that as opposed to the severely pedestrian film that Spectre​ ultimately ended up being.

 

 

The "Blofeld kidnaps Madeleine and moves her to London"-idea was from a P&W draft.  Logan´s treatment was so completely different, with Blofeld being an African warlord, that it was decided not to pursue this.  

 

Does anybody know whether Logan actually wrote one or more screenplay drafts based on that?

Bond was kidnapped to be led to the maze. If Bond didn't lash out and kill the goons, I imagine they would've led him to Blofeld behind the glass. And the film would've played out exactly the same.

 

But if the goons had led Bond to Blofeld - at some point he would have had to escape the cuffs and knock out the goons.  Which would have complicated matters.

[Odd Jobbies]

Bond was kidnapped to be led to the maze. If Bond didn't lash out and kill the goons, I imagine they would've led him to Blofeld behind the glass. And the film would've played out exactly the same.

Bond was kidnapped to be led to the maze. If Bond didn't lash out and kill the goons, I imagine they would've led him to Blofeld behind the glass. And the film would've played out exactly the same.

Bad writing 101...the kidnappers orders were obviously to bring bond to blofeld at Mi6.

So why were the walls graffitied with red arrows and the word Bond to show him the way to Blofeld? Surely the kidnappers would've known the way to Blofeld in the basement? Or are we to believe that Blofeld lugged all those character posters into the building himself and did all of that decorating single handedly! Or perhaps he has the number of some handy villains laire decorators that do last minute call outs.
Doesn't really add up, but that's nothing new for scripts that have involved p&w.

Imo the script wreaks of a longer first draft that made more sense of these plot holes, but once cut down by committee the writers either couldn't be bothered, or didn't know how to address the plot holes left by the cutdown.

Btw, sorry about the double quote etc, this site isn't iPhone friendly with the tiny window it gives you to type in in the 'full version' (need the full version or you can't go straight  to last page of the thread - or can you?  ...Just worked it out - switch to full version on page 1, jump to last page of thread, then switch back to mobile version. Bit of a faff - be nice to have a 'Jump to last page' button in the mobile version

[sharpshooter]

The goons would have just taken off the cuffs/hood and walked away. If Bond wanted to engage them, it was up to the goons to defend themselves. The plot didn't require Bond to knock them out. It just made it seem like Bond was taking charge of the situation, when in fact Blofeld was. As for the graffiti, I can't really rationalise that. It is what it is.

[Odd Jobbies]

Bond scripts don't require the audience to make sense of plot holes - the sense is generally implicit. I highly doubt this was designed to require us work it out, it just turned out that way no doubt due to multiple re-writes and lazy/lat minute finishing. If I didn't know better I'd assume that final act was written during a writer's strike

My point re the graffiti is that this scene is designed to have Bond making his own way to Blofeld in the basement. So what were the goons going to do- show him the way in and then wait at the entrance? Lots of loose ends.

 

But if so that would've been a better solution than inexplicably breaking the plastic cuffs, making the goons look like idiots, making the audience feel like they've missed something and changing the rules meaning that Bond may now do stuff without any explanation/inter-textual rationale.

 

At least having the goons wait at the door might have created a sinister foreboding of what awaits him inside (which would be far more in keeping with the wonderful sense of sinister foreboding that carries throughout the previous acts (the funeral and the lake in particular).

 

Having him break the bonds is, as you say, to show him taking control (a misconceived 'Bond moment'). It complicates the flow - he's captured- now he's in control- now he's being controlled. It's all over the place!

 

They had him break the bonds without addressing ripple effects of that and missed an opportunity to bring back Spectre's foreboding tone. Sure, they eventually get back to that tone briefly when Bond finds Blofeld, but only after an unnecessary running about-following-the-graffiti-with-action-music scene. Like i said, the logic, the story and the tone is all over the place. It mistakes pace for tension, because you lose the tension when logic falters and the tone shifts on those messy story beats

[SecretAgentFan]

All of it really doesn´t add up in the final stretch - also, Bond can shoot down a helicopter with one bullet from a handgun (or is that possible, too)?  I would have preferred a special gun that Q had been previously working on - and Bond using that in order to really power down the helicopter.

 

Although I did enjoy SPECTRE on my third viewing (or was I just too desperate at that time and gave up?), I do find it a strange hybrid of "modern pared down" and "classic over the top"-Bond, two sides that don´t really gel.

 

I guess the real reason why neither Craig nor Mendes want to return (so far) is a massive frustration the way tentpole productions like this are managed by the moneylenders - a situation that EON like any other producing entity has to endure and suffer from, too.

 

To get back on topic, I sincerely hope that a new Bond actor and a new director, combined with a smaller budget (the horrible flops of this summer have already installed major budget fear in the studios, and rightfully so) can rejuvenate the series again.

 

While Bond still remains a reliable and bankable asset I doubt that any of the possible distributors will be eager to shell out what MGM is asking for - the profit margin is just getting smaller and smaller.

[Odd Jobbies]

All too true, sadly - particularly on those evil moneylenders! Maybe M could send out a 00 to get rid of them all (i bet Mendes and Craig would come back for that  mission  )

[Harmsway]

Does anybody know whether Logan actually wrote one or more screenplay drafts based on that?

Logan wrote many drafts off of that concept. It was dropped fairly late in the game. In early drafts, there was a climax in a diamond mine.

He wrote drafts involving the Oberhauser backstory, too. I believe the climax he had in at least one draft had Blofeld/Oberhauser in the C role, with Bond and co. obtaining proof of his murder of papa Oberhauser somewhere in London.

[Toxteth_OGrady]

http://radaronline.c...mes-bond-films/

[Dustin]

Is that supposed to make sense? Getting Craig back for a period of, in all likelihood, six years to look for a younger long-term replacement? With a franchise that earned Sony below their average return-of-investment?


Hum-hum...

[sharpshooter]

http://radaronline.c...br> bond-films/

Shooting virtually back to back would satisfy both camps. The people who only want Craig back for Bond 25, given his age and such, and the people who want more Craig Bond. I can believe the studio is throwing big cash in his direction. But once again, who really knows? I think it's more likely Craig comes back though.

[tdalton]

Kind of hard for Sony to offer Craig anything to return as Bond since they don't have anything to do with the franchise at the moment.  Unless, of courses, that guy known as "sources" is to be believed.

[Pierceuhhh]

Part of ny attraction to the Bond series is te sense of history and context. I'd look more fondly in Spectre - good points and bad - if it was smack in the middle of Craig's tenure. Just like Thunderball and Moonraker both feel like representative, emblematic bloaters from the depths if the Connery and Moore eras respectively. Die Another Day would be a bit more palatable and easier to shrug off if Brosnan had one more, stripped back Martin Campbell sendoff in 2004.

Edited by Pierceuhhh, 04 September 2016 - 04:04 AM.

[SecretAgentFan]

http://radaronline.c...mes-bond-films/

 

Does not exactly sound credible, especially with the "news" of the shortlist thrown in that was regurgitated only recently.

 

I could believe that everybody involved is very nervous about getting the right actor, thinking that throwing even more money at Craig will be the best way to move forward.

 

But would even more millions really change Craig´s mind?  Where´s the difference in getting 80 million or 150 million anyway - it´s already more money than anyone could spend in his/her lifetime.  And if Craig is fed up with the role and the circus around it why would he now say: okay, 150 million, that´s what I was waiting for.

 

No, no, no.  "radaronline" is just cobbling together something as clickbait, using old rumours (back-to-back shooting of two Bond films/the shortlist with Idris Elba) and combining it with the not exactly surprising guess that Sony will again distribute the next Bond films.

 

I say: fake.

[Odd Jobbies]

Does sound like clickbait, but then there may be a kernel of truth. I think the studio would indeed be prepared to throw this much money at Craig and a back-to-back 2 movie deal may the studio's big ask to justify such sums. 

 

It makes no sense that they want Craig in order to make a 'smooth transition' into Bond 7 (as though they'd have Craig literally pass the baton). I'm guessing they've mis-written, or misunderstood a source and what was meant was a smooth transition for the studio distribution deal. To keep a sure thing star in place would indeed make this deal easier.

[wdj89]

You can always tell the made up stuff because they assume Sony owns the rights to James Bond - I don't think this has much cred to it - maybe we can get North Korea to check in for us?

Edited by wdj89, 04 September 2016 - 05:19 PM.