1078 replies to this topic

[scaramunga]

I am really looking forward to the new Saint tv series. Hopefully Ian will have an update on what is happening soon.

[Matt_13]

Chris Vance would make an excellent Simon.

[David Schofield]

The longer there is no news the more I get a feeling of dread, that once more we won't get another Saint.

How is it possible that a series like the Saint is not getting a succesfull remake these days and stuff like the A-Team do??

Because the Saint is perceived as being quintessentially English?

Because the A-Team are a bunch of -kicking invulnerable American soldiers?

Just a couple of suggestions.

[Simon]

Another maybe that there is no obvious visual handle to consider with the Saint. I am not referring to stick figures (which were removed from the US film)

With the A Team, you have the Mr T bling extravagance, the black van, and presumeably other things that will offer fond memory.

The Saint is a fairly low key character who's good with words and is a pretty bright chap - a harder sell, for film anyway. As for why he is being delayed in TV, it does seem strange as perhaps the character and his (comparative to X-Men/A Team) low key involvements would be more suited to TV.

That said, they did remake Sherlock. But in this way, I would Not want to see the Saint re-released.

[Dekard77]

I can't see why British TV is not taking an interest in developing the series. It might to do well.

[trs007]

Another maybe that there is no obvious visual handle to consider with the Saint. I am not referring to stick figures (which were removed from the US film)

Techncially, the stick figure was in the film--the pin.

[David Schofield]

I can't see why British TV is not taking an interest in developing the series. It might to do well.

As a consumer of British television, I can confidently tell you that it does not have the wit or the intelligence to tackle the Saint.

The best you'd get is the story of a recently released from prison, tough as nails ex-thief, straight off a deprived London council estate, self educated in prison on the classics, who gets involved in various post-incarceration scrapes. If you were lucky (doubtful) he might have stashed away a bit of his ill-gotten loot and be living quite well, but I doubt it. Ross Kemp would play "Templar", or, if the budget stretched and his Hollywood career faltered, Jason Statham.

Thats the fall out you get from the failure of the Simon Dutton series. And the New Labouring of British TV.

[Dekard77]

I can't see why British TV is not taking an interest in developing the series. It might to do well.

As a consumer of British television, I can confidently tell you that it does not have the wit or the intelligence to tackle the Saint.

The best you'd get is the story of a recently released from prison, tough as nails ex-thief, straight off a deprived London council estate, self educated in prison on the classics, who gets involved in various post-incarceration scrapes. If you were lucky (doubtful) he might have stashed away a bit of his ill-gotten loot and be living quite well, but I doubt it. Ross Kemp would play "Templar", or, if the budget stretched and his Hollywood career faltered, Jason Statham.

Thats the fall out you get from the failure of the Simon Dutton series. And the New Labouring of British TV.

Sounds terrible, I am sure they may have a few clever writers who can come with a stylish series in the vain of Poirot or Midsummer Murders? It doesn't have to be dark or silly like Dutton but somewhere in between?

Where has all the talent gone?

[David Schofield]

I can't see why British TV is not taking an interest in developing the series. It might to do well.

As a consumer of British television, I can confidently tell you that it does not have the wit or the intelligence to tackle the Saint.

The best you'd get is the story of a recently released from prison, tough as nails ex-thief, straight off a deprived London council estate, self educated in prison on the classics, who gets involved in various post-incarceration scrapes. If you were lucky (doubtful) he might have stashed away a bit of his ill-gotten loot and be living quite well, but I doubt it. Ross Kemp would play "Templar", or, if the budget stretched and his Hollywood career faltered, Jason Statham.

Thats the fall out you get from the failure of the Simon Dutton series. And the New Labouring of British TV.

Sounds terrible, I am sure they may have a few clever writers who can come with a stylish series in the vain of Poirot or Midsummer Murders? It doesn't have to be dark or silly like Dutton but somewhere in between?

Where has all the talent gone?

Oh, I think the talent's there. It's just a case of the way the talent's thinking.

As a character, The Saint is far too "old school" for the UK and UK television now (consider how hard David Cameron is finding it to being elected as PM who it should be a shoe-in!). British TV will have no truck with, essentially, a sophisticated, financially independent man of the world with a taste for the finer things of life. Sure, we make the "Poirots" and the "Marples" but I think that just a case of laughing at "the way we were" and seeing a lot of upper class folk behaving indulgently and, as a reward, getting what's coming to them.

Indeed, one could say EON fell for the same dumbing down trick with Craig-Bond. That Vesper scene on the train... Terrible. James Bond the chav.

[Dekard77]

I can't see why British TV is not taking an interest in developing the series. It might to do well.

As a consumer of British television, I can confidently tell you that it does not have the wit or the intelligence to tackle the Saint.

The best you'd get is the story of a recently released from prison, tough as nails ex-thief, straight off a deprived London council estate, self educated in prison on the classics, who gets involved in various post-incarceration scrapes. If you were lucky (doubtful) he might have stashed away a bit of his ill-gotten loot and be living quite well, but I doubt it. Ross Kemp would play "Templar", or, if the budget stretched and his Hollywood career faltered, Jason Statham.

Thats the fall out you get from the failure of the Simon Dutton series. And the New Labouring of British TV.

Sounds terrible, I am sure they may have a few clever writers who can come with a stylish series in the vain of Poirot or Midsummer Murders? It doesn't have to be dark or silly like Dutton but somewhere in between?

Where has all the talent gone?

Oh, I think the talent's there. It's just a case of the way the talent's thinking.

As a character, The Saint is far too "old school" for the UK and UK television now (consider how hard David Cameron is finding it to being elected as PM who it should be a shoe-in!). British TV will have no truck with, essentially, a sophisticated, financially independent man of the world with a taste for the finer things of life. Sure, we make the "Poirots" and the "Marples" but I think that just a case of laughing at "the way we were" and seeing a lot of upper class folk behaving indulgently and, as a reward, getting what's coming to them.

Indeed, one could say EON fell for the same dumbing down trick with Craig-Bond. That Vesper scene on the train... Terrible. James Bond the chav.

Agreed, I quite hate the scenes where Bond has to be apologetic for having sense/style/sophistication. It's a common trend in most movies where the hero suffers from wounded psyche and can only be redeem through a woman. Shameful. Tv is no better.

[Lachesis]

I can't see why British TV is not taking an interest in developing the series. It might to do well.

As a consumer of British television, I can confidently tell you that it does not have the wit or the intelligence to tackle the Saint.

The best you'd get is the story of a recently released from prison, tough as nails ex-thief, straight off a deprived London council estate, self educated in prison on the classics, who gets involved in various post-incarceration scrapes. If you were lucky (doubtful) he might have stashed away a bit of his ill-gotten loot and be living quite well, but I doubt it. Ross Kemp would play "Templar", or, if the budget stretched and his Hollywood career faltered, Jason Statham.

Thats the fall out you get from the failure of the Simon Dutton series. And the New Labouring of British TV.

Sounds terrible, I am sure they may have a few clever writers who can come with a stylish series in the vain of Poirot or Midsummer Murders? It doesn't have to be dark or silly like Dutton but somewhere in between?

Where has all the talent gone?

Oh, I think the talent's there. It's just a case of the way the talent's thinking.

As a character, The Saint is far too "old school" for the UK and UK television now (consider how hard David Cameron is finding it to being elected as PM who it should be a shoe-in!). British TV will have no truck with, essentially, a sophisticated, financially independent man of the world with a taste for the finer things of life. Sure, we make the "Poirots" and the "Marples" but I think that just a case of laughing at "the way we were" and seeing a lot of upper class folk behaving indulgently and, as a reward, getting what's coming to them.

Indeed, one could say EON fell for the same dumbing down trick with Craig-Bond. That Vesper scene on the train... Terrible. James Bond the chav.

Agreed, I quite hate the scenes where Bond has to be apologetic for having sense/style/sophistication. It's a common trend in most movies where the hero suffers from wounded psyche and can only be redeem through a woman. Shameful. Tv is no better.

Sadly this is something I feel is a legitimate trend these days, the British hero archetype was defined by being cool, reserved, and cerebral but it is no longer considered something to aspire to (even in Britain), rather media shows it disdain or consigns it to the representation of evil/villiany. Individuality can no longer be considered to arise from choice has become somthing resulting from circumstance for fear of suggesting an inequality, everyone has to have an emotional trauma to excuse any minor deviation from PC.

[Simon]

Another maybe that there is no obvious visual handle to consider with the Saint. I am not referring to stick figures (which were removed from the US film)

Techncially, the stick figure was in the film--the pin.

Ah yes, indeed, you are quite correct. But it was almost apologetic in its appearance.

I think I was refering more to the constant placing of cards at the scene, a la Milk Tray ads of olde, and to some interesting marketing.

Cheers.

[Trident]

I can't see why British TV is not taking an interest in developing the series. It might to do well.

As a consumer of British television, I can confidently tell you that it does not have the wit or the intelligence to tackle the Saint.

The best you'd get is the story of a recently released from prison, tough as nails ex-thief, straight off a deprived London council estate, self educated in prison on the classics, who gets involved in various post-incarceration scrapes. If you were lucky (doubtful) he might have stashed away a bit of his ill-gotten loot and be living quite well, but I doubt it. Ross Kemp would play "Templar", or, if the budget stretched and his Hollywood career faltered, Jason Statham.

Thats the fall out you get from the failure of the Simon Dutton series. And the New Labouring of British TV.

Sounds terrible, I am sure they may have a few clever writers who can come with a stylish series in the vain of Poirot or Midsummer Murders? It doesn't have to be dark or silly like Dutton but somewhere in between?

Where has all the talent gone?

Oh, I think the talent's there. It's just a case of the way the talent's thinking.

As a character, The Saint is far too "old school" for the UK and UK television now (consider how hard David Cameron is finding it to being elected as PM who it should be a shoe-in!). British TV will have no truck with, essentially, a sophisticated, financially independent man of the world with a taste for the finer things of life. Sure, we make the "Poirots" and the "Marples" but I think that just a case of laughing at "the way we were" and seeing a lot of upper class folk behaving indulgently and, as a reward, getting what's coming to them.

Indeed, one could say EON fell for the same dumbing down trick with Craig-Bond. That Vesper scene on the train... Terrible. James Bond the chav.

Agreed, I quite hate the scenes where Bond has to be apologetic for having sense/style/sophistication. It's a common trend in most movies where the hero suffers from wounded psyche and can only be redeem through a woman. Shameful. Tv is no better.

Sadly this is something I feel is a legitimate trend these days, the British hero archetype was defined by being cool, reserved, and cerebral but it is no longer considered something to aspire to (even in Britain), rather media shows it disdain or consigns it to the representation of evil/villiany. Individuality can no longer be considered to arise from choice has become somthing resulting from circumstance for fear of suggesting an inequality, everyone has to have an emotional trauma to excuse any minor deviation from PC.

I think at least insofar as the 'high life-sophistication-snobbery' department is concerned there is one other reason for the step-by-step disappearence of the carefree bon viveur. The 50's/60's model was an open-minded freethinker that was ahead of his times, enjoying life in a way previous generations were unable and/or unwilling to; food, drink, travel, all that at his disposal and enjoyed tremendously, especially as it was not mainstream but individuality that marked this particular template of hero. In one word: cool.

Today, exactly this philosophy of conspicious consumption has become not just what people dream about, but what is actually pursued by next-to everybody. Tons of magazines for better living, housing, effing, sports, health, suntan, plastic surgery, haute cuisine and so on. German cars cluttering up all streets; big conspicious, downright vulgar brand labels on all available surfaces, tailored for every conceivable income. Hedonism is not something that's depicted by a cool character any more. It's not even a lifestyle. It's become a simple reality and the hallmark of stuffy old bourgeois who need the horsepower of their cars as ersatz potency and the contents of their wine refrigerators to impress people they hate anyway. In other words, not cool.

So to me it's not exactly surprising that there's been a shift of characteristics with modern heroes.

[Simon]

I think at least insofar as the 'high life-sophistication-snobbery' department is concerned there is one other reason for the step-by-step disappearence of the carefree bon viveur. The 50's/60's model was an open-minded freethinker that was ahead of his times, enjoying life in a way previous generations were unable and/or unwilling to; food, drink, travel, all that at his disposal and enjoyed tremendously, especially as it was not mainstream but individuality that marked this particular template of hero. In one word: cool.

But if 'they' decided to follow the books and place them in their time, this would be the 30's and 40's.

Thereby removing all your correctly stated conflict.

Personally, I think the correct and only way to go with the Saint is to make it a period film/production. Certainly this would alleviate comparisons with other 'smooth git heroes'.

[Trident]

I think at least insofar as the 'high life-sophistication-snobbery' department is concerned there is one other reason for the step-by-step disappearence of the carefree bon viveur. The 50's/60's model was an open-minded freethinker that was ahead of his times, enjoying life in a way previous generations were unable and/or unwilling to; food, drink, travel, all that at his disposal and enjoyed tremendously, especially as it was not mainstream but individuality that marked this particular template of hero. In one word: cool.

But if 'they' decided to follow the books and place them in their time, this would be the 30's and 40's.

Thereby removing all your correctly stated conflict.

Personally, I think the correct and only way to go with the Saint is to make it a period film/production. Certainly this would alleviate comparisons with other 'smooth git heroes'.

My comment was actually aimed at the more recent observations regarding Bond and other contemporary characters. But I definitely agree that a period production would probably be the best way for The Saint. Only problem I see is, the character is very much defines by the 60's Moore depiction that earned S.T. cult status. I suspect whoever is willing to get a new attempt at The Saint going will want to capture at least some of that 'swinging-sixties' feeling. Not sure if this can be transformed into a 'cool' version of the 30's/40's.

[David Schofield]

I think at least insofar as the 'high life-sophistication-snobbery' department is concerned there is one other reason for the step-by-step disappearence of the carefree bon viveur. The 50's/60's model was an open-minded freethinker that was ahead of his times, enjoying life in a way previous generations were unable and/or unwilling to; food, drink, travel, all that at his disposal and enjoyed tremendously, especially as it was not mainstream but individuality that marked this particular template of hero. In one word: cool.

But if 'they' decided to follow the books and place them in their time, this would be the 30's and 40's.

Thereby removing all your correctly stated conflict.

Personally, I think the correct and only way to go with the Saint is to make it a period film/production. Certainly this would alleviate comparisons with other 'smooth git heroes'.

My comment was actually aimed at the more recent observations regarding Bond and other contemporary characters. But I definitely agree that a period production would probably be the best way for The Saint. Only problem I see is, the character is very much defines by the 60's Moore depiction that earned S.T. cult status. I suspect whoever is willing to get a new attempt at The Saint going will want to capture at least some of that 'swinging-sixties' feeling. Not sure if this can be transformed into a 'cool' version of the 30's/40's.

No, I can't see a period Saint working, or getting the green light.

Then, you reduce Templar to a weed in tweed attending shooting parties, country house weekends, cockney "chums", cigarette holder and tails at dinner on the Queen Elizabeth, art deco in New York, cod willains in Brooklyn, etc

As Trident observes, any film/tv maker would need a very easy association with the cult Moore version. They even went for THAT with Kilmer...

[Simon]

Hmm, I am not sure that there is a direct and unique correlation between the 30's and Tweed.

The books, written and set in the 30's, were a different kettle of sardines altogether where he was running with the underworld set. Indeed, he did throw in the odd dinner party as well, but his was not a world contained by weeds. In fact he came across in the books as far more mercenary and deadly.

With all the reimagining going on, an association or otherwise with the Moore period will be up to whomever, if they wish, to disassociate from. Marketing will do that.

If the producers of Bond can disassociate from Brosnan with a Craig rendition of just four years separation, then I am sure a Saint producer will not have any concerns over something made 40-50 years ago.

(Said he, winningly)

[Dekard77]

Interesting thought, with Mad Men making waves it will be nice to mix things up a bit. Either way if the lead and story makes sense the audience will love it. Time to change mindsets of the regular viewer and give something cool and stylish to watch!

[Trident]

Hmm, I am not sure that there is a direct and unique correlation between the 30's and Tweed.

The books, written and set in the 30's, were a different kettle of sardines altogether where he was running with the underworld set. Indeed, he did throw in the odd dinner party as well, but his was not a world contained by weeds. In fact he came across in the books as far more mercenary and deadly.

With all the reimagining going on, an association or otherwise with the Moore period will be up to whomever, if they wish, to disassociate from. Marketing will do that.

If the producers of Bond can disassociate from Brosnan with a Craig rendition of just four years separation, then I am sure a Saint producer will not have any concerns over something made 40-50 years ago.

(Said he, winningly)

Phew, really not sure about that. I don't doubt the overall possibility that one could pull a kind of Indiana-Jones (who was an answer to the frustration of not doing a Bond initially) with The Saint. But I doubt the marketing suits will see the same potential in a character devoid of the connection to its 'cult' heritage. The Bond figure was already a well established culture icon prior to Craig's casting, whereas S.T. with 90 per cent of the public is primarily associated with Moore and the 60's.

Going back to field one, starting without any hint at the cult series (particularly important with people my age, who will see a new go at The Saint as a revival of our youth) is a daring move that will severely cut down the potential audience. Younger audiences, say, 12 to 25 years, mostly do not know The Saint at all, neither care about the character. Getting both these camps into theaters or in front of a TV screen will need an outstanding product and a massive PR campaign to spread the word. On top of a period setting that will call for huge sums in production and perhaps even CGI effects.

In my view the only half-way decent chance to get such a project on the success lane would be to choose a 60's setting, Mad Men style perhaps.

[Ernst Stavro Blofeld Jr.]

I think a period setting would be stupid and unnecessary.

The show on USA Network called White Collar deals with high society and a main character that prefers the finer things in life. The show proves that style and panache doesn't require a period setting, so why resort to such a thing?

[TheSaint]

Thats the fall out you get from the failure of the Simon Dutton series.

Considering that the Dutton series is, gasp, 20 years old, I doubt it's failure has anything to do with the difficulty of getting a new Saint series on the air. Hell, the Kilmer abomination is 13 years old.

[danslittlefinger]

Is the new series with Dougray not happening then?

[TheSaint]

Is the new series with Dougray not happening then?

Last I heard they're still working on it. We shall see.

[David Schofield]

Thats the fall out you get from the failure of the Simon Dutton series.

Considering that the Dutton series is, gasp, 20 years old, I doubt it's failure has anything to do with the difficulty of getting a new Saint series on the air. Hell, the Kilmer abomination is 13 years old.

What I was trying to say in the rest of that post #533 is that current society - British anyway - isn't inclined toward the kind of formal, sophisticated hero the Saint represents.

The failure of the Dutton series shows that the time for that had passed even 20 years ago, and was further confirmed by the spin put on the Saint character (to the anger of many, including yourself)by the Kilmer film.

[danslittlefinger]

Is the new series with Dougray not happening then?

Last I heard they're still working on it. We shall see.

Oh good. Thanks for the heads up.

[Simon]

But I doubt the marketing suits will see the same potential in a character devoid of the connection to its 'cult' heritage. The Bond figure was already a well established culture icon prior to Craig's casting, whereas S.T. with 90 per cent of the public is primarily associated with Moore and the 60's.

Possibly you are right, but all evidence to the contrary. The Saint has popped up in 30's films, 60's TV, 80's TV, 90's film and without any hint at what went on before. One can debate the successes in terms of both artistry and profit (a short conversation then) but ultimately there was nary a desire to hint at anything other than their own timeframe.

Going back to field one, starting without any hint at the cult series (particularly important with people my age, who will see a new go at The Saint as a revival of our youth) is a daring move that will severely cut down the potential audience. Younger audiences, say, 12 to 25 years, mostly do not know The Saint at all, neither care about the character. Getting both these camps into theaters or in front of a TV screen will need an outstanding product and a massive PR campaign to spread the word.

While not my area of expertise or even cursory knowledge, I am aware that disparate comic book heroes are popping up left and right from years gone by. I am not sure if the 'average 25 yr old' will be any more aware of, say, the Shadow than the Saint. But, case in point, the Shadow was set in its own period and, to my mind, benefitted from it.

Who knows?

[Trident]

As you said, it just might work, who knows? I just think a marketing strategy for a Saint project would have a much easier day if the product was to be set in, say, 1965 than in 1935. The reasoning behind this would roughly look like 'Moore-association + retro-fashion + swinging 60's + 40-somethings kind childhood memories = such-and-such number of potential audiences'. Throw in some cool-looking production design, stylish action, a number of stunts and a halfway-decent plot and you get younger audiences into the theaters as well.

The 1935 version would have a somewhat rougher time, taking the Moore-factor, retro and 60's fashion out of the equation. But the recent Sherlock Holmes shows it's certainly not impossible to get a major production set into a timeframe beyond the ordinary. It just takes another quality of effort. Question would be, are producers willing to go the distance with their character? That's where I'm a bit sceptical, but if the right minds set their aim to it, who knows?

[Ian Dickerson]

As a consumer of British television, I can confidently tell you that it does not have the wit or the intelligence to tackle the Saint.

Or money.

[Ian Dickerson]

Going back to field one, starting without any hint at the cult series (particularly important with people my age, who will see a new go at The Saint as a revival of our youth) is a daring move that will severely cut down the potential audience. Younger audiences, say, 12 to 25 years, mostly do not know The Saint at all, neither care about the character. Getting both these camps into theaters or in front of a TV screen will need an outstanding product and a massive PR campaign to spread the word. On top of a period setting that will call for huge sums in production and perhaps even CGI effects.

In all the years of my hagiography I've never been able to get a grip and quantify people's perception of the character. Sure a lot of people only assoicate Roger with the Saint, that's bound to happen. Same, in lesser quantities, for Ian and Val.

But one of possible leads for the new series, who's only 28, quoted "Charlie Charlemagne St Charles was wont to utter fearful snarls" with a fervor that not even I possess. Another TV exec (in American TV sadly) has an excellent knowledge of the early books and they were in their early 20s. Another exec, somewhat older, dismissed the Saint simply as a cat burglar.

Ian

[jaguar007]

Ian,
I'm guessing the actor who was in negotiations to play ST about 6 months ago (who we believed to be Dougray Scott) is now out of the picture? Can you tell us if the new series is still in the works or is it currently a dead project?