202 replies to this topic

[bond 16.05.72]

If Mr white does indeed live and is the Mr Big some have supposed for a while then maybe 23 will be a stand alone film to give the Quantum angle a rest for one film and then bring it back for 24.

Most likely 2012 and nicely coinciding with the 50th Anniversary. Bond meeting eye to eye with White again with White carrying that wound, no doubt having a permanent effect on him, most likely a limp, will give White a nice charactersitic and when we see him effected by it we'll be reminded it was Bond who did that to him.

Would give the Bond White dynamic an uneasy feel whenever they meet, the decision taken was probably they didn't want another cliffhanger like CR it was done once and would seem a bit unoriginal again.

If they choose to do it again later then fine but 3 in a row maybe they felt it was time for a new foe for Bond in 23.


Stamper you slagged off DK and I loved that so your opinions a moot point with me anyway.

[doubler83]

Everyone would know Bond lives because they know Daniel Craig is signed for the next one.

The hardcore fans (the likes of us who frequent Bond message boards) might know that he has signed on for the next one, but would Joe public know that?

[Mr. Blofeld]

Well, then, use it for Bond 23! White shoots, and we see an animated bullet go into Bond's knee, where CGI blood splats us into the credits.

That, or have the next director shoot supplementary footage so Bond beats the unholy shît out of White, and that could lead us into the credits.

[Safari Suit]

There's no way Foster got/was supposed to get final cut is there?

Everyone would know Bond lives because they know Daniel Craig is signed for the next one.

The hardcore fans (the likes of us who frequent Bond message boards) might know that he has signed on for the next one, but would Joe public know that?

No, but I'd be surprised if a significant portion of them didn't know Bond has been around longer than they have and has only once or twice shown any real signs of stopping. Besides, the jig would be up once they start promoting/discussing the follow up, what, two months later?

Stamper you slagged off DK and I loved that so your opinions a moot point with me anyway.

How does that work?

[Loomis]

Cliffhangers are for soap operas. They are not for James Bond films. And am I alone in finding the idea that the cutting of this one scene makes QoS a failure absolute bollocks?

Well, Fleming wasn't above ending with the odd cliffhanger every once in a while, so I don't see why it's something that should be denied Eon.

That is true. But the whole James Bond saga is a different ball-game from Fleming's day. Fleming could have stopped writing the Bond books, no problem, so the cliffhanger at the end of FRWL works. But everyone and his auntie knows that the Bond films will continue to be made until they cease becoming profitable. That there will be a Bond #23 is as certain as death and taxes, which is why I said it would be false - ho-hum - drama.

Points taken, but I'd still like a cliffhanger ending even though BOND 23 is, as you say, as certain as death and taxes. Sure, I wouldn't wonder whether Bond would die, but an ending that left the viewer wondering whether the start of the next flick would see 007 as a shadow of his former self (a la the beginning of Fleming's TMWTGG) might be interesting.

There are zillions of ways to fashion a cliffhanger ending for QUANTUM OF SOLACE, e.g.:

- At the last second, Bond twigs that the mastermind behind the Quantum organisation is, in fact, M herself. The film ends with 007 breaking into her office and pointing a gun at her head, more furious than he's ever been in his life. Cut to black.

- An adaptation of Fleming's YOLT ending, with Bond being taken prisoner by Quantum henchmen or walking off into what the audience knows is a Quantum trap. Cut to Camille, months later, walking down the street somewhere on the other side of the world, visibly pregnant. Cut to black.

And, erm, well, that's merely two and hardly "zillions", but I imagine that more ideas could be generated fairly easily.

[bond 16.05.72]

There's no way Foster got/was supposed to get final cut is there?

Everyone would know Bond lives because they know Daniel Craig is signed for the next one.

The hardcore fans (the likes of us who frequent Bond message boards) might know that he has signed on for the next one, but would Joe public know that?

No, but I'd be surprised if a significant portion of them didn't know Bond has been around longer than they have and has only once or twice shown any real signs of stopping. Besides, the jig would be up once they start promoting/discussing the follow up, what, two months later?

Stamper you slagged off DK and I loved that so your opinions a moot point with me anyway.

How does that work?

He didn't like that I was most impressed with that, his review did not reflect the film I saw, his opinion rarely sides with mine, therefore his opinion of QOS will most likely be diffrent to mine.

Is that good enough for you?

There's no way Foster got/was supposed to get final cut is there?

Everyone would know Bond lives because they know Daniel Craig is signed for the next one.

The hardcore fans (the likes of us who frequent Bond message boards) might know that he has signed on for the next one, but would Joe public know that?

No, but I'd be surprised if a significant portion of them didn't know Bond has been around longer than they have and has only once or twice shown any real signs of stopping. Besides, the jig would be up once they start promoting/discussing the follow up, what, two months later?

Stamper you slagged off DK and I loved that so your opinions a moot point with me anyway.

How does that work?

He didn't like that I was most impressed with that, his review did not reflect the film I saw, his opinion rarely sides with mine, therefore his opinion of QOS will most likely be diffrent to mine.

Is that good enough for you?

[Safari Suit]

Yes. I'm sorry if I was a bit rude, I just always find it a bit baffeling when people say "x didn't like y, I liked Y so X's opinion is worthless to me", but if theres's more to it than that then I'm sorry.

[doubler83]

There are zillions of ways to fashion a cliffhanger ending for QUANTUM OF SOLACE, e.g.:

- At the last second, Bond twigs that the mastermind behind the Quantum organisation is, in fact, M herself. The film ends with 007 breaking into her office and pointing a gun at her head, more furious than he's ever been in his life. Cut to black.

- An adaptation of Fleming's YOLT ending, with Bond being taken prisoner by Quantum henchmen or walking off into what the audience knows is a Quantum trap. Cut to Camille, months later, walking down the street somewhere on the other side of the world, visibly pregnant. Cut to black.

And, erm, well, that's merely two and hardly "zillions", but I imagine that more ideas could be generated fairly easily.

Very nice!

[Agent Spriggan Ominae]

What if the original cliffhanger was...

Spoiler

After Yusef has been taken into custody, White pops up again this time with Yusef meeting the same fate as Le Chiffre.

Just putting that out there. We'll find out eventually.

[Blofeld's Cat]

This kills my idea that there IS a trilogy because by having the gunbarrel at the end of Quantum of Solace it would segue nicely into Bond 23 which would have the same gunbarrel at the beginning.

[JimmyBond]

Feel free at CBN to use my scan for a newbreak. It's all yours. I really wanted this ending, it's so pure Fleming, snif...

You don't even know if that was intended. You're getting upset over something that very well could be in your imagination.

[dee-bee-five]

Cliffhangers are for soap operas. They are not for James Bond films. And am I alone in finding the idea that the cutting of this one scene makes QoS a failure absolute bollocks?

Well, Fleming wasn't above ending with the odd cliffhanger every once in a while, so I don't see why it's something that should be denied Eon.

That is true. But the whole James Bond saga is a different ball-game from Fleming's day. Fleming could have stopped writing the Bond books, no problem, so the cliffhanger at the end of FRWL works. But everyone and his auntie knows that the Bond films will continue to be made until they cease becoming profitable. That there will be a Bond #23 is as certain as death and taxes, which is why I said it would be false - ho-hum - drama.

Points taken, but I'd still like a cliffhanger ending even though BOND 23 is, as you say, as certain as death and taxes. Sure, I wouldn't wonder whether Bond would die, but an ending that left the viewer wondering whether the start of the next flick would see 007 as a shadow of his former self (a la the beginning of Fleming's TMWTGG) might be interesting.

There are zillions of ways to fashion a cliffhanger ending for QUANTUM OF SOLACE, e.g.:

- At the last second, Bond twigs that the mastermind behind the Quantum organisation is, in fact, M herself. The film ends with 007 breaking into her office and pointing a gun at her head, more furious than he's ever been in his life. Cut to black.

- An adaptation of Fleming's YOLT ending, with Bond being taken prisoner by Quantum henchmen or walking off into what the audience knows is a Quantum trap. Cut to Camille, months later, walking down the street somewhere on the other side of the world, visibly pregnant. Cut to black.

And, erm, well, that's merely two and hardly "zillions", but I imagine that more ideas could be generated fairly easily.

You make some interesting suggestions, particularly for the fans. And that's the problem; these kinds of endings are fanwanks (if you'll forgive me). The fans might wet themselves, but I submit the general audience - and they are far, far more important than the fans - would find it tiresome. I suspect they would find it a gimmick and I, for one, wouldn't blame them. If the next film were coming out in a couple of months, the ideas you put forward might work, but not two years hence. One of the problems with Pirates of Caribbean 2 (one of the many problems, admittedly) was that ghastly cliffhanger, which was so blah... And PotC 3 was only another year away.

[Blofeld's Cat]

This kills my idea that there IS a trilogy because by having the gunbarrel at the end of Quantum of Solace it would segue nicely into Bond 23 which would have the same gunbarrel at the beginning.

I think there is still a trilogy. Mr. White escapes and Quantum is not yet defeated.

It appears that scene was cut so Eon would not be forced to do the trilogy. Still could happen of course.

[YOLT]

So can we say that EON's Bond 23 plans are already ready

[JimmyBond]

So can we say that EON's Bond 23 plans are already ready

I wouldnt say that. Especially if Wilson's plan of a 3 year gap comes to fruition.

[dee-bee-five]

This kills my idea that there IS a trilogy because by having the gunbarrel at the end of Quantum of Solace it would segue nicely into Bond 23 which would have the same gunbarrel at the beginning.

I think there is still a trilogy. Mr. White escapes and Quantum is not yet defeated.

It appears that scene was cut so Eon would not be forced to do the trilogy. Still could happen of course.

Personally, I rather hope they don't. They gave SPECTRE a sensible rest in Goldfinger and I rather hope they do so with Quantum.

[Loomis]

Cliffhangers are for soap operas. They are not for James Bond films. And am I alone in finding the idea that the cutting of this one scene makes QoS a failure absolute bollocks?

Well, Fleming wasn't above ending with the odd cliffhanger every once in a while, so I don't see why it's something that should be denied Eon.

That is true. But the whole James Bond saga is a different ball-game from Fleming's day. Fleming could have stopped writing the Bond books, no problem, so the cliffhanger at the end of FRWL works. But everyone and his auntie knows that the Bond films will continue to be made until they cease becoming profitable. That there will be a Bond #23 is as certain as death and taxes, which is why I said it would be false - ho-hum - drama.

Points taken, but I'd still like a cliffhanger ending even though BOND 23 is, as you say, as certain as death and taxes. Sure, I wouldn't wonder whether Bond would die, but an ending that left the viewer wondering whether the start of the next flick would see 007 as a shadow of his former self (a la the beginning of Fleming's TMWTGG) might be interesting.

There are zillions of ways to fashion a cliffhanger ending for QUANTUM OF SOLACE, e.g.:

- At the last second, Bond twigs that the mastermind behind the Quantum organisation is, in fact, M herself. The film ends with 007 breaking into her office and pointing a gun at her head, more furious than he's ever been in his life. Cut to black.

- An adaptation of Fleming's YOLT ending, with Bond being taken prisoner by Quantum henchmen or walking off into what the audience knows is a Quantum trap. Cut to Camille, months later, walking down the street somewhere on the other side of the world, visibly pregnant. Cut to black.

And, erm, well, that's merely two and hardly "zillions", but I imagine that more ideas could be generated fairly easily.

You make some interesting suggestions, particularly for the fans. And that's the problem; these kinds of endings are fanwanks (if you'll forgive me). The fans might wet themselves, but I submit the general audience - and they are far, far more important than the fans - would find it tiresome. I suspect they would find it a gimmick and I, for one, wouldn't blame them. If the next film were coming out in a couple of months, the ideas you put forward might work, but not two years hence. One of the problems with Pirates of Caribbean 2 (one of the many problems, admittedly) was that ghastly cliffhanger, which was so blah... And PotC 3 was only another year away.

Good points. Yes, the general audience is far, far more important than the fan audience, but I'm not certain that Regular People™ would find such an ending tiresome, especially given that the Bond film series is not exactly stuffed with cliffhanger endings.

And I'm not sure that I entirely agree with your point that: "If the next film were coming out in a couple of months, the ideas you put forward might work, but not two years hence." I mean, THE DARK KNIGHT ends on a cliffhanger (albeit perhaps not one as dramatic as the two cliffhangers I've proposed in this thread), and it would seem that BATMAN BEGINS 3 is at least two years away and more likely three.

Finally, I think most of us would agree that the Craig era is a golden age of experimentation and risktaking for Eon, and so it would be nice to see them push the boat out in terms of bold ideas. With Craig in the lead and basking in the unprecedented critical acclaim for CASINO ROYALE, now is surely the perfect time to break out those risky moves.

I know that I haven't seen QUANTUM OF SOLACE, and, yes, I'm satisfied that it will be - at worst - a pretty decent and enjoyable flick. And I'm also aware that the ideas I've chucked into this thread may not be viable or even particularly good. But none of that changes my view - or, perhaps more accurately, my suspicion - that, sadly, the makers of QUANTUM have bottled it somewhat and not been quite as adventurous as they might have been.

[dee-bee-five]

Cliffhangers are for soap operas. They are not for James Bond films. And am I alone in finding the idea that the cutting of this one scene makes QoS a failure absolute bollocks?

Well, Fleming wasn't above ending with the odd cliffhanger every once in a while, so I don't see why it's something that should be denied Eon.

That is true. But the whole James Bond saga is a different ball-game from Fleming's day. Fleming could have stopped writing the Bond books, no problem, so the cliffhanger at the end of FRWL works. But everyone and his auntie knows that the Bond films will continue to be made until they cease becoming profitable. That there will be a Bond #23 is as certain as death and taxes, which is why I said it would be false - ho-hum - drama.

Points taken, but I'd still like a cliffhanger ending even though BOND 23 is, as you say, as certain as death and taxes. Sure, I wouldn't wonder whether Bond would die, but an ending that left the viewer wondering whether the start of the next flick would see 007 as a shadow of his former self (a la the beginning of Fleming's TMWTGG) might be interesting.

There are zillions of ways to fashion a cliffhanger ending for QUANTUM OF SOLACE, e.g.:

- At the last second, Bond twigs that the mastermind behind the Quantum organisation is, in fact, M herself. The film ends with 007 breaking into her office and pointing a gun at her head, more furious than he's ever been in his life. Cut to black.

- An adaptation of Fleming's YOLT ending, with Bond being taken prisoner by Quantum henchmen or walking off into what the audience knows is a Quantum trap. Cut to Camille, months later, walking down the street somewhere on the other side of the world, visibly pregnant. Cut to black.

And, erm, well, that's merely two and hardly "zillions", but I imagine that more ideas could be generated fairly easily.

You make some interesting suggestions, particularly for the fans. And that's the problem; these kinds of endings are fanwanks (if you'll forgive me). The fans might wet themselves, but I submit the general audience - and they are far, far more important than the fans - would find it tiresome. I suspect they would find it a gimmick and I, for one, wouldn't blame them. If the next film were coming out in a couple of months, the ideas you put forward might work, but not two years hence. One of the problems with Pirates of Caribbean 2 (one of the many problems, admittedly) was that ghastly cliffhanger, which was so blah... And PotC 3 was only another year away.

Good points. Yes, the general audience is far, far more important than the fan audience, but I'm not certain that Regular People™ would find such an ending tiresome, especially given that the Bond film series is not exactly stuffed with cliffhanger endings.

And I'm not sure that I entirely agree with your point that: "If the next film were coming out in a couple of months, the ideas you put forward might work, but not two years hence." I mean, THE DARK KNIGHT ends on a cliffhanger (albeit perhaps not one as dramatic as the two cliffhangers I've proposed in this thread), and it would seem that BATMAN BEGINS 3 is at least two years away and more likely three.

Finally, I think most of us would agree that the Craig era is a golden age of experimentation and risktaking for Eon, and so it would be nice to see them push the boat out in terms of bold ideas. With Craig in the lead and basking in the unprecedented critical acclaim for CASINO ROYALE, now is surely the perfect time to break out those risky moves.

I know that I haven't seen QUANTUM OF SOLACE, and, yes, I'm satisfied that it will be - at worst - a pretty decent and enjoyable flick. And I'm also aware that the ideas I've chucked into this thread may not be viable or even particularly good. But none of that changes my view - or, perhaps more accurately, my suspicion - that, sadly, the makers of QUANTUM have bottled it somewhat and not been quite as adventurous as they might have been.

Well, you could of course be right. But I can't possibly comment on that until I see QoS next week!

[HildebrandRarity]

The fan-wankery is getting old and tired. Especially as every Bond fan here knows that Wilson and Broccoli have been fully at it straight since they lost Dana four and a half years ago and they, admittedly, need a break.

Bond 23 is three years away. 95 percent of the audience watching Q0S are Joe and Jane Average and probably are not interested in so-called cliff hangers, having to wait three years for a resolution to what is esentially a fantasy product.

And for the rest of us 5 percent...well, I, for one, don't want to wait three years either.

I would like this film not to end "open-ended".

[sorking]

They got chicken, it's too late. What a wasted opportunity.

But who is responsible EON, Sony, Forster or everyone ? Reading what Forster says, I think EON changed the final ?

Yes, quick, we need to know who to be mad at!

Seriously, there's no way they didn't all basically agree. Eon is a company and made up of many people, as is Sony. the idea that the whole body thinks one single way about an issue is very simplistic. Everyone weighs in, everyone's take comes with a different weight - how important they are, how convincing they are, how financially involved they are, how creatively involved, and how drastically they feel one way or the other (some may well believe, as I do, that both versions seem equally valid).

[Marketto007]

You're jokin' right?

xxx

[Vauxhall]

Wow, this has come as a surprise to me. It seems odd to say how much I'm looking forward to the DVD before the movie even comes out...

I'm extremely glad that White is still at large, and I'm hopeful that it turns out he is, in fact, one of the major players in Quantum and had bluffed everyone.

[bondrules]

Wow, this has come as a surprise to me. It seems odd to say how much I'm looking forward to the DVD before the movie even comes out...

I'm extremely glad that White is still at large, and I'm hopeful that it turns out he is, in fact, one of the major players in Quantum and had bluffed everyone.

White going Kayser Soze --- me like

[Qwerty]

Now on the CBn main page...

SPOILERS: The Original 'Quantum of Solace' Cliffhanger Ending

'There was a scene after where the movie ends now...'

[SolidWaffle]

As Invincible1958 says, and I agree 200%, the reason OHMSS is a MONUMENT in the Bond canon is that they didn't fade out on the mariage and Bond and Tracy going out happy forever. They had Tracy being suddenly and brutally killed by Blofeld, and Bond crying over his body. It made an Instant cult classic and masterpiece. If you cut this ending ? Let me tell you, people would not remember Laz as Bond, anymore than they remember Barry Nelson or Barry Niven. There would be maybe a tenth of the respect for Laz, that he has today. The ending made the movie.

I have seen QOS, and I'm telling it here : cutting out the ending and Bond demise, is like cutting out Tracy being killed at the end of OHMSS. It robs the whole movie of it's sense, and that's why I was disappointed when I saw it, even if I had no idea this ending was cut, I knew something was missing.

Uh, no.

Here's why.

This is a way to set up another film. Tracy's death was used to wrap up the current film. And if you think this movie just lost 300 million at the box office you are mistaken. Nobody will care at all, maybe just an extreme diehard Bond fan.

I, for one, don't want another sequel. And where did all this bull[censored] that Bond gets shot come from? I want a complete Bond film, not a episode of 24.

[Colonel Moon]

i miss for the old end titles
now we only have a black screen with white text

[Captain Tightpants]

I like that Forster cut the scene instead of sticking it in there and forcing the producers to make a third film.

And also, I don't think there should be a director's cut of any DVD, because the theatrical cut should be the same as the director's cut.

[MajorB]

Wow, the hysteria is hysterical.

Granted, I haven't seen the film. But Stamper, I gotta say, while I see where you're coming from, your comments don't quite make sense.

If the film had ended with Bond getting killed...well, no, that wouldn't have been a kick- ending, it would've been a disastrous ending becaue BOND WOULD BE DEAD! That kind of dramatic, holy-spit kind of conclusion has a certain amount of fanboy appeal because it would be so radically out there...but BOND WOULD BE DEAD!

Which is not going to happen. Don't care what the IMDb folks said, don't care what earlier versions anyone may have seen, it would never, ever, ever happen. Ever! Because BOND WOULD BE DEAD! And even if Eon and the studio were that slobberingly suicidal as to kill off its hero, it would still suck because there would be no more Bond films!!!!

So I'm not sure why you think it would be a good idea.

And given that everyone knows they're not going to kill off Bond, then if the film had ended with White firing and Bond taking the bullet hit and crashing in twisted agony to the floor, everybody in the audience would know that somehow he would survive till the next film. So what's the point?

That aside . . . you're absolutely right about editing structure and how the pieces have to fit the right way. And maybe your inverted-CR theory is correct. (I won't know for another three-and-a-half weeks when QoS FINALLY gets to the US of A--damn you, MGM!) But I am an editor--text, not film--and I can tell you that if the present ending of QoS doesn't work, then having a one-minute scene in which Bond is shot by White wouldn't redeem it. Oh, it would be startling, stunning, possibly gasp-inducing. But unless it involved a confrontation in which White forces Bond to confront his actions, so that the audience felt that his death made some kind of dramatic sense and was deserved--that is, unless there was some kind of old-fashioned-Greek-drama catharsis for the the character and the audience--I just don't buy that this ending would somehow redeem the film. It would just feel tacked-on and arbitrary.

So while I'm sorry if the present ending seems weak, I think we can hold off the mourning for what might have been, because all it would have been was a surprise.

Incidentally, count me as one of those who would like to see Bond re-engage with Quantum in B23. I'm an old (very!) fan who likes the idea of a SPECTRE-type adversary. And if the shape of Quantum is still vague at the end of QoS, I'd be interested to learn more about the organization in the next film.

[sharpshooter]

Interesting news. I always wanted White to stick around, he's a deserving, chilling villain.

[00Twelve]

Whether it's less "cool" from a fanboy perspective or not (which is what we all are, so don't think that's meant to be derisive), I think that the ending they're going with is the more mature ending. No, not safer, more mature. This is a fine place to end things ambiguously, with White and Quantum still out there, and even Greene not dead (however useful he is as a Quantum operative). It's the same tone of ending as Empire Strikes Back (and that's the ONLY comparison I'm making between those two films), one that's ambiguous but not so much that the film is locked into wrapping up the previous film's ending (for what would be the second time in a row for Bond).

As I posted in another thread about this ending, the "did he die?" cliffhanger is a flaccid ending. Of course not. Wounded, maybe, but Bond's still a new 00-agent in this rebooted series. Is the desire to see the novelty of Bond being shot that important?

I think Forster was right not to force EON into a situation where they had to pick up from the ending moments of QOS. Look at it this way-- Mike & Babs might have felt they had to do a throwaway PTS to kill off White in Bond 23 if they were intent on heading in another direction anyway. And I, for one, want to see more of him. This way, they have the freedom to bring him back in any way they choose.

I'd like to see the deleted scene, but I can't help feeling that it's pretty silly to despair over its not being included in the film.